DocMedic Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 ... Having said that, I quit shooting Open in 3-Gun due to the shotgun. LOL, I think The reason I'm going into open this next year is due to the shotgun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 The 10+1 rule is stupid it limits gun designs like the X-rail. You should not try to stiffle inovation in the one catagory that is supposed to be all about inovation. I shoot both outlaw and USPSA matches and frankly its more fun at the outlaw matches where I can load my Saiga full andy my buddies can load their Xrails full. Open is not for those on a budget. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Sure it does. With the rule it's enevitable that the a tube gun without a $700 Xrail will be uncompetitive. Of the top Open shooters Voigt is the only one that is still using a tube gun without an XRail. Clint U --- Saiga. Jerry M --- XRailed Mossburg(?) Burkett --- Saiga Does Jerry run an Xrail in USPSA? I seriously doubt it, unless he has a very major sponsorship to consider. The 10+1 heavily favors the Saiga and other magazine fed guns. If I can only start with 11 in the gun, and most of the courses are 12 or more, that means everyone has to load. With the Saiga, it's a simple push release shove in new mag. With tube guns it's shove in Tec Loader, shove in Tec Loader, and depending on numbers, thumb in a round or two. As far as the Xrail, it's a complete waste in USPSA, just extra weight on the gun. At least if Open is Open, it allows an Xrail or for that matter any other Tube gun to be competetive with the Saiga. Right now the only thing holding back Saigas from winning every USPSA match is a noticable lack of reliability. SO by your logic, if we go, true Open, shooters will have to at a minimum buy an Xrail. Xrail is $700, but there are routinely $300 off certs in the classifieds, Say $400.00, less the price of the magazine extension tube, call it a cheap one at $50.00. You really don't need to port the barrel anymore either because hanging 4 pounds of weight off the gun I'm sure does a good job of reducing muzzle flip, but we'll ignore that part. So for $350.00-450.00, you're tube gun is competetive again. But the big advantage is you really don't need to learn to load it any more. You may have to load a few times, figure out how to run a stick, but it won't be the primary factor in how you do with a Shotgun anymore. That is appealing to a lot of people. I just have a hard time believing that someone is going to look at Open and say, well crap, I was going to have to lay out 10K to be competetive in that Division, not I have to lay out 10,300. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 He may not be running one in a 10+1 USPSA match. But when USPSA became "Open is open" why wouldn't Jerry run an Xrail? He ran one in RM3G. I'm not worried about existing Open shooters. I'm worried about the new shooter. $10K in equipment!!! Let's help them out and tack on another grand or two. Honestly... why would anybody starting from scratch get a tube gun with an XRail? A $3-4K box fed shotgun is the way to go. And getting an X-rail certificate on the table? You guys are going to change the rule with the expectation that a new Open shooter is going to get a certificate off of the prize table? Come on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 A $3-4K box fed shotgun is the way to go. ^^ That's why I gave up Open in 3-Gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 (edited) ... Having said that, I quit shooting Open in 3-Gun due to the shotgun. LOL, I think The reason I'm going into open this next year is due to the shotgun Same here With the introduction of the Akdal, it should get cheaper for people to get into open... The only thing reducing the number of shooters in Open will be the format change of 3GN. How many shooters will jump ship from open just because of 3GN though... 3-5? If you dont have a shot at making it to the shoot-off anyway, why would you bother switching? I'm going the other way, I'm leaving TO for Open, so I wouldnt mind a few guys leaving Edited October 18, 2011 by gose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I only shoot 1 USPSA multi-gun match a year. Next year I might shoot 2. I can't remember the last time I shot a pistol match. I realize that it is not likely to make much difference to me what USPSA does with it's rules. Now if suddenly all the matches I do attend where to adopt USPSA rules, then I might pay more attention, but I don't imagine that will happen anytime soon. Just a thought, if you load more than 10 rounds in your shotgun at a USPSA match they should bump you into "Super" open! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripletapjake Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I primarily shoot 3Gun. With the rise of the 3Gun Nation Tour, IMGA rules (and Horner rules) are now King in 3Gun and Multigun. USPSA's MultiGun rules are so far out of the mainstream for most 3Gunners.....it almost doesn't make sense to shoot USPSA Multigun matches. I rarely do because I have to change the way I shoot, my ammo and the rules sub-optimizes my Open Saiga. Every match on the 3Gun Nation Tour (except USPSA MultiGun) sells out and the 3Gun events are drawing more and more shooters every day. I know IPSC and USPSA got most of us into shooting, but if the 3Gun market is moving away from USPSA rules....wouldn't it make sense for USPSA to follow the market? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) I know IPSC and USPSA got most of us into shooting, but if the 3Gun market is moving away from USPSA rules....wouldn't it make sense for USPSA to follow the market? For what end though? It would be nice to see USPSA getting new people and their pistol shooters interested in Outlaw multi-gun and feeding them into future major outlaw 3-gun events (like the PROAM was successful in doing). It would end up being a subordinate role though. USPSA could gain respect for introducing new shooters to the sport - something none of us should argue with. The 3GN producers are pragmatists and seem to be taking the most rational actions. There are a number of professionals willing to offer their time, their advice, and their image to recruit new multi-gunners. 3GN is unarguably the most effective at utilizing that asset in the multi-gun community and as much as some of us object to watching Top Shot, they are the most effective at creating a more favorable view of shooting sports than any other show before TS aired. Edited October 19, 2011 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 wouldn't it make sense for USPSA to follow the market? So may we assume you are a USPSA member? May we also assume you have read the 2011 provisional rules? May we also assume you have spoken to your MD about the "in-process" rewrite of the USPSA MG rules? If the answer is no, maybe you ought to change so you can answer yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 it's not about the $, it's about open, not 10+1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 ... Having said that, I quit shooting Open in 3-Gun due to the shotgun. LOL, I think The reason I'm going into open this next year is due to the shotgun Shotgun is the reason I am in open and just upped the anty to switch to 9MM with a Carver mount for Cmore. The USPSA rules for pistol matches are entrenched and I think we all know that for now. The USPSA attempt to increase their presence in 3 gun is not going to work IMO. The results of what people like bare that out. No limits for open. Including no handgun power factor across the board. 2 hits to neutralize, no silly and in depth debates with an overlay. It seems to me from my perspective is maybe the USPSA needs to tell the guys across the pond to pound sand for multigun. Adopt the IMGA rules and work together for the sport when it comes to the multigun side. I mean there are probably more IMGA shooters in THIS country that shoot local matches than the foreign IPSC folks combined. Or then again I may completely mis understand. All I know is the USPSA is not going to convert IMGA fans and will have to convert to those rules to be viable for multigun. Im just a club shooter and have no more to add on this subject here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) The only thing reducing the number of shooters in Open will be the format change of 3GN. And that goes for many other things as well. 3GN has earned a great position of leadership and I have been satisfied with their involvement in multigun shooting sports. I and many other long gun action shooters (and match directors) will likely base any equipment decisions on their structure. They seem to be moving to a higher position of authority and I'm interested in seeing what they have planned for 2013. Within two years, they've produced one of the first television shows of this type in many years, created a shooting league, and a statistical database with a mountain of useful articles and video for new multigun shooters. Having shot 5 of the 3GN events in 2010 and all 5 of the 3GN events in 2011 I'm very well aware of what 3GN has accomplished and their influence on the sport. During my experience with this sport I cannot think of a more influential force to promote and grow the sport as much as 3GN , so your inference that I am not supportive is in error. Edited October 19, 2011 by smokshwn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 back on topic...let's see, we could always have a separate shotgun category for tube guns...not. but a lot of us will be shooting for "first tube" this weekend. but think outta the box. if open shotgun is open, no limits on capacity, put tube guns in tactical where there is a capacity limit. WTH? loading by hand, loading with the new 2 round vests or loading with sticks-one thing in common is they are all tube shotguns. putting flame suit on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentG Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 He may not be running one in a 10+1 USPSA match. But when USPSA became "Open is open" why wouldn't Jerry run an Xrail? He ran one in RM3G. I'm not worried about existing Open shooters. I'm worried about the new shooter. $10K in equipment!!! Let's help them out and tack on another grand or two. Honestly... why would anybody starting from scratch get a tube gun with an XRail? A $3-4K box fed shotgun is the way to go. And getting an X-rail certificate on the table? You guys are going to change the rule with the expectation that a new Open shooter is going to get a certificate off of the prize table? Come on! Said it before and say it again. Im not a rich guy. I shoot open. I am not a national level shooter and I dont use a 3-4K shotgun. I have about $1300 in mine that runs fine. I shot tac untill the lure of Saiga pulled me in. Not everyone starts out in open. It is more like a evolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) back on topic...let's see, we could always have a separate shotgun category for tube guns...not. but a lot of us will be shooting for "first tube" this weekend. but think outta the box. if open shotgun is open, no limits on capacity, put tube guns in tactical where there is a capacity limit. WTH? loading by hand, loading with the new 2 round vests or loading with sticks-one thing in common is they are all tube shotguns. putting flame suit on... and we have a WINNER! There is a fallacy that limiting rounds somehow levels the field. In actuality it is the guns feeding mechanism that is the advantage. You can't have 8 round box mags in Tactical. It has only been in OPEN (without capacity limits) that any shotgun innovation has occcurred. Edited October 19, 2011 by smokshwn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinosaurMikeGolf Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 back on topic...let's see, we could always have a separate shotgun category for tube guns...not. but a lot of us will be shooting for "first tube" this weekend. but think outta the box. if open shotgun is open, no limits on capacity, put tube guns in tactical where there is a capacity limit. WTH? loading by hand, loading with the new 2 round vests or loading with sticks-one thing in common is they are all tube shotguns. putting flame suit on... and we have a WINNER! There is a fallacy that limiting rounds somehow levels the field. In actuality it is the guns feeding mechanism that is the advantage. You can't have 8 round box mags in Tactical. It has only been in OPEN (without capacity limits) that any shotgun innovation has occcurred. There will never be such a thing as a level playing field. All other things being equal (Ceteras paribus in Latin), the skill of the operator, and the reliability of the equipment and ammunition will determine the ranking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 [shotgun is the reason I am in open and just upped the anty to switch to 9MM with a Carver mount for Cmore. The USPSA rules for pistol matches are entrenched and I think we all know that for now. The USPSA attempt to increase their presence in 3 gun is not going to work IMO. The results of what people like bare that out. No limits for open. Including no handgun power factor across the board. 2 hits to neutralize, no silly and in depth debates with an overlay. It seems to me from my perspective is maybe the USPSA needs to tell the guys across the pond to pound sand for multigun. Adopt the IMGA rules and work together for the sport when it comes to the multigun side. I mean there are probably more IMGA shooters in THIS country that shoot local matches than the foreign IPSC folks combined. Or then again I may completely mis understand. All I know is the USPSA is not going to convert IMGA fans and will have to convert to those rules to be viable for multigun. Im just a club shooter and have no more to add on this subject here. You completely misunderstand. I had to wait a day before responding to try and understand some of what you said. Here is my 2 cents. First there is no IMGA. There is a rule set that has been around for years and is modified by every IMGA MD out there. However there is no Association that backs that rule set up. You talk about not needing overlays to score, but Horner scoring (used in "IMGA" matches) still devalues hits outside the A and shooters are still going to try and get the value of those hits. You mentioned USPSA power factor. There are still many shooters that like shooting matches with Hit Factor scoring. I'm not one of them, but many died in the wool USPSA shooters realize that hanging a couple D's on a target is not as hard of a shooting challenge as actully trying to hit the A zone. Beyond that, USPSA has Time Plus scoring, just like IMGA. I just ran the Area 1 MG match as Time Plus. No major ammo required. As far as USPSA succeeding in MultiGun. It's possible we'll fail. I don't think so but who knows. What I do see happening is IMGA matches are getting harder and harder to get into. Used to be there was one then two big three gun matches nationwide. SOF, then SMM3G. In the last 5 years that number has gone up dramatically. But it's still geared towards bigger matches. Blue Ridge, RM3G, Ironman, Ozark, FNH, Pro-Am. All great matches. But there is only so much that can be accomplished with major matches like those. I still see the same faces at most of these matches, whether I'm in Missouri, Idaho or Arizona. Chances are, of 200 people in the match I'll know 100 or more from all the other big IMGA matches we shot earlier in the year. These big matches are great and having a single MD or group running the match works well. Where this model breaks down is club and mid level matches. Without a nationwide organization of some type ensuring some consistency from match to match, state to state, we won't dramatically grow the number of people competing in MultiGun. USPSA functions not based on how our Nationals runs, but how well the local club, sectional and Area matches run. The vast majority of USPSA shooters will never make it to a Nationals, but almost all of them will at least shoot a club level, or higher match. If USPSA can come up with something that will appeal to the local clubs and drive growth is what will determine success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Burkett --- Saiga Nope. FN w/ XRail (at least, so he told me at the Open Nationals this year) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Burkett --- Saiga Nope. FN w/ XRail (at least, so he told me at the Open Nationals this year) But that was before he found out some moron changed USPSA to 10+1. Didn't you read the OP? I'll be interested to see what he does this weekend. The Xrail is great for IMGA, sucks for USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) The only thing reducing the number of shooters in Open will be the format change of 3GN. And that goes for many other things as well. 3GN has earned a great position of leadership and I have been satisfied with their involvement in multigun shooting sports. I and many other long gun action shooters (and match directors) will likely base any equipment decisions on their structure. They seem to be moving to a higher position of authority and I'm interested in seeing what they have planned for 2013. Within two years, they've produced one of the first television shows of this type in many years, created a shooting league, and a statistical database with a mountain of useful articles and video for new multigun shooters. Having shot 5 of the 3GN events in 2010 and all 5 of the 3GN events in 2011 I'm very well aware of what 3GN has accomplished and their influence on the sport. During my experience with this sport I cannot think of a more influential force to promote and grow the sport as much as 3GN , so your inference that I am not supportive is in error. Oh no, I'm in complete agreement with you. I'd agree that whatever policies they put forth are the ones most likely to be followed. Edited October 19, 2011 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 back on topic...let's see, we could always have a separate shotgun category for tube guns...not. but a lot of us will be shooting for "first tube" this weekend. but think outta the box. if open shotgun is open, no limits on capacity, put tube guns in tactical where there is a capacity limit. WTH? loading by hand, loading with the new 2 round vests or loading with sticks-one thing in common is they are all tube shotguns. putting flame suit on... Who says there needs to be a capacity limit in Tactical? USPSA could get rid of that as well... Most other matches dont have capacity limits in Open OR Tactical, only diff is that you can only start with 8+1 in Tac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Burkett --- Saiga Nope. FN w/ XRail (at least, so he told me at the Open Nationals this year) He shot a Saiga at Ironman at the Open match. I'm not the boss of him so I don't know if he has shot any majors since then with an XRailed gun. It would be interesting to see how he does with a gun that actually works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 He shot Ozark with an X railed SLP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Thanks. Interesting to note that 24 out of 238 entrants shot Open at the Ozark. 10.08% In contrast the Nationals has had: 2010- 49/156 31.4% 2009- 49/135 36.3% 2008- 37/118 31.4% 2007- 40/159 25.2% It will be interesting to see what the ratio will be once the new rule(s) kick in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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