RM authority -- DQ's

[ima45dv8]

Poppa Bear posted this in the "Show me the rule that allows X" thread, and I thought it raised an interesting point.

If the rules were black and white there would be no reason for an arbitration committee, or all the disagreements that take place here on the rules forum. This is also why at major matches you have the RO's, the CRO's, the Range Master, the Arbitration Committee. The RO makes a call to issue a procedural, a DQ or a change to the shooters equipment. The CRO backs him up or disagrees with his reasons. The RM can make a decision on top of that based on the RO's and CRO's decisions. If they all agree and the shooter still does not agree they can pay to arbitrate their ruling.

If the RO issues a DQ based on an observed action, and the CRO doesn't dispute the call, and then the RM is called, can he overturn the DQ and reinstate the competitor?

[ima45dv8]

Poppa Bear posted this in the "Show me the rule that allows X" thread, and I thought it raised an interesting point.

If the rules were black and white there would be no reason for an arbitration committee, or all the disagreements that take place here on the rules forum. This is also why at major matches you have the RO's, the CRO's, the Range Master, the Arbitration Committee. The RO makes a call to issue a procedural, a DQ or a change to the shooters equipment. The CRO backs him up or disagrees with his reasons. The RM can make a decision on top of that based on the RO's and CRO's decisions. If they all agree and the shooter still does not agree they can pay to arbitrate their ruling.

If the RO issues a DQ based on an observed action, and the CRO doesn't dispute the call, and then the RM is called, can he overturn the DQ and reinstate the competitor?

To narrow this down a bit, let's assume the RO isn't waffling ("well....I think his finger was in the trigger guard during the reload") and hasn't made an incorrect call (like DQ'ing someone for reloading on the move, or some other extreme example of a non-existent offense).

If it's a solid, rules-relevant call, can the RM overturn the DQ?

[sperman]

I'll play.

If we are referring to a shooter being DQ'ed for a safety infraction, my answer is no. I've highlighted what I consider to be the relevant part of the rule below.

11.1.2 Access - Appeals may be submitted to arbitration in accordance with the following rules for any matter except where specifically denied by another rule. Appeals arising from a disqualification for a safety infraction will only be accepted to determine whether exceptional circumstances warrant reconsideration of the match disqualification. However, the commission of the infraction as described by the Range Official is not subject to challenge or appeal. Challenges to the construction or layout of the course, safety, or shooting conditions may not be submitted after the competitor attempts the course of fire. Should a course of fire be changed after the competitor completes the stage, he is entitled to the process under appeals providing that no DQ has occurred.

[Nik Habicht]

If the RO issues a DQ based on an observed action, and the CRO doesn't dispute the call, and then the RM is called, can he overturn the DQ and reinstate the competitor?

Yes, per 11.1.3:

11.1.3 Appeals – the Range Officer makes decisions initially. If the appellant disagrees with a decision, the Chief Range Officer for the stage or area in question should be asked to rule. If a disagreement still exists, the Range Master must be asked to rule.

That's subject to some limitations though -- such as the RO/CRO citing the wrong rule, misunderstanding the rule, or some other boneheaded move. Basically, overturning the DQ in the same manner an arbitration committee would....

To narrow this down a bit, let's assume the RO isn't waffling ("well....I think his finger was in the trigger guard during the reload") and hasn't made an incorrect call (like DQ'ing someone for reloading on the move, or some other extreme example of a non-existent offense).

If it's a solid, rules-relevant call, can the RM overturn the DQ?

Going with your "solid and certain call" hypothetical, I'd say no, under 11.1.2

11.1.2 Access - Appeals may be submitted to arbitration in accordance with the following rules for any matter except where specifically denied by another rule. Appeals arising from a disqualification for a safety infraction will only be accepted to determine whether exceptional circumstances warrant reconsideration of the match disqualification. However, the commission of the infraction as described by the Range Official is not subject to challenge or appeal. Challenges to the construction or layout of the course, safety, or shooting conditions may not be submitted after the competitor attempts the course of fire. Should a course of fire be changed after the competitor completes the stage, he is entitled to the process under appeals providing that no DQ has occurred.

Assuming that the RO is certain he observed a valid offense, the RM can't dispute the occurrence. (I could think of a scenario or two, where the RM could possibly dispute the call, but he'd need to be present at the time of the offense -- and at that point I think we're back to non-certain call in the first place.) Since the RM can't dispute the occurrence, if the rule is clear, the DQ stands.....

[Poppa Bear]

The chain is what it is because of the RM's position within the rules:

11.1.5 Retain Evidence – An appellant is required to inform the Range Master

of his wish to present his appeal to the Arbitration Committee and may

request that the officials retain any and all relevant documentary or

other evidence pending the hearing. Photos, audio and/or video recordings

will not be accepted as evidence.

11.1.6 Preparing the Appeal - The appellant is responsible for the preparation

and delivery of the written submission, together with the appropriate

fee. The submission must include relevant rule(s) to support the appeal.

Both must be submitted to the Range Master within the specified period

of time.

As Nik said it becomes a rules issue. The chances are pretty slim that a DQ would be overturned unless it was based on the wrong rule. I myself would read and write the rule used to DQ the individual directly from the rule book just to make sure it was correct. ie A DQ based on 10.5.1 (Handling) when the offense was a 10.5.2 180 violation. If something like that made it through the RO, the CRO and the RM without being caught then it deserves to be overturned.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Poppa Bear

[mactiger]

In my opinion, the answer is yes and no. For clearly defined "bad" or erroneous calls, the CRO can overrule the RO, and the RM can overrule both of them, which is the way it should be. However, I have seen RM's overturn a DQ when all the match officials on the stage were adamant about the call and the circumstances surrounding it.

I'll tell you what my general philosophy is when I get called to a DQ while acting as RM. First, I talk to the range staff and simply ask what happened, and listen to their statement. If they appear to be waffling, and I didn't see the incident, I'll try to make them go one way or the other, simply because if you weren't sure and stopped the competitor just to be safe, well, you did your job and no harm no foul. If they are sure, I uphold the call and give the competitor his options. I have yet to overturn a DQ call when the range staff told me they were sure. I have talked one or two of them out of it if they appeared unsure or confused, or I got conflicting stories, but I didn't just overrule them.

This weekend, while working as a CRO on a stage at the Single Stack Nationals, I overruled my RO on the spot, simply because she made a bad call, and I saw it. She was keeping score and stopped the competitor, but I let her go through the whole thing, (ULSC, ICHDH, RIC), and then we (the shooter and I) both said, "What did you stop me/him for?" The answer didn't make sense, so I just said no, and told him to go get ready for a reshoot. The RM could conceivably do the same thing, as I said, based on a bad call. Usually, he upholds the call if the range staff is sure. But, IMO, the rules allow him to overturn it as well. I think it's bad form to do that if you didn't see what happened, but it's happened.

Troy

Edited May 17, 2011 by mactiger

[Gary Stevens]

I agree with Troy. I always ask the RO/CRO "are you positive on what you called (safety violation)?" If they say they were, then that is the end of the story. If there is some "wiggle room" though, I will take them through a series of "what if's" and tell them that if they feel they might have been wrong in hindsight, then reverse their call. Ultimately, though unless it is something outside the bounds, it is their call.

For something like one procedural or one per shot fired I always ask the RO to explain to me what advantage was gained to justify the one per shot fire call. Sometimes they can't.

I had a situation in Reno once where one RO saw a 180 break and called it, however two other RO's who were in a better position said it was OK. I explained how this was going to look bad and go bad when it hit the arb committee. Bottom line shooter got a re-shoot and all was well.

Gary

[Poppa Bear]

Both are good points. I am fairly new to the RO business but one thing that was pounded into my head was if you hesitate at all because you "Think" they might have committed the offense just let it go. If you know they committed a DQ-able offense then you should have yelled STOP right away. If it was a procedural offense then your response is "You did" not "I think" .

If I screw up because I think they committed a rules violation like in Troy's example, OK educate me and possibly even the shooter. It will be many years, if at all, before I act as a CRO at a level III match, but I would hope to at least act as an RO at least a couple of times at that level just for the learning experience afforded at that level. As one person put it, "You will see every possible way there is to game the stage. Your job is to make sure they do not violate the rules in the process"

[JayWord]

I agree with both Troy and Gary.

It is understood that a RM can overrule a call, but we try not to do so. Many times once the heat of the moment is over, it is easy to get the RO/CRO to look at their call with a clear mind. I have seen several situations where the RO on the shooter is pretty sure there was a violation but the other RO was in a better spot to make the call. This is especially true in 180 violations and ADs over the berm. We talk it out and let the chips fall where they may. My philosophy is to back up the RO and allow the arbitration committee to overturn the call if it turned out to be bad or more likely unclear.

Jay

[Nik Habicht]

My take pretty much mirrors Troy's, Gary's or Jay's -- not that I have anywhere near their experience. I also think it's the RM's job to be the ombudsman, and explain the final decision to the competitor...

While no one likes a DQ, there are ways to handle the situation with dignity, from everyone's position. Part of the RM's job is to facilitate that....

[George Jones]

I'm with Troy, Gary, and Jay.

I would never overturn a call unless I had personally witnessed the event and disagreed with the crew. Since many DQs do not have any residual evidence, you have to look at the conviction of the crew as to what happened. Waffling is not good.

On the other hand, if a rule was misapplied, and if the crew does not "see the light" after we discuss it, I will not hesitate to overturn the call. Explanations to all concerned to follow.

[EkuJustice]

What if the DQ is for something physically impossible. Say the DQ was for failure to remove the finger from the trigger when doing a reload. The shooter has no mag button and and in order to drop the mag has to remove the finger from the trigger to rotate the gun in order to drop the mag. Physically there is no way to have the finger on the trigger and reload the gun.

[Nik Habicht]

What if the DQ is for something physically impossible. Say the DQ was for failure to remove the finger from the trigger when doing a reload. The shooter has no mag button and and in order to drop the mag has to remove the finger from the trigger to rotate the gun in order to drop the mag. Physically there is no way to have the finger on the trigger and reload the gun.

Depends -- this is where confirming that your staff is sure of what they saw and called becomes important. In the situation you described, finger in the trigger guard isn't impossible -- since the reload probably lasts in excess of a second, and the time the gun is shifted could be much shorter....

(Shift, finger out, hit mag release, shift, finger in, mag being inserted, or slide being racked.....)

[John Baier]

I'm with the other RM's on this one too

Edited May 19, 2011 by John Baier

[Schutzenmeister]

Add one more RM agreeing with the RMI's on this. If my CRO or RO DQs someone over something that the rules do not support a DQ for, I will overturn it. If my RO is confident in what he/she observed (and the other RO(s) on the stage do not offer differing views), and it is a DQ'able offense, I will support the DQ. If there are differing RO views, it becomes a "facts and circumstances" situation.

By rule, I cannot accept photographic evidence and generally speaking, will not even look at it. I feel it is incumbent on me to accept the integrity of my ROs absent overwhelming and compelling evidence to the contrary. I see this as no different from any other sport. In each case (except for the NFL, which will allow the use of "instant replay" to help make a call), the match official's call stands.

It's NOT an "us v. them" situation. It's one where you need to be able to trust the integrity and judgement of the trained match official. If you can't, there are ways to deal with that, too.

[West Texas Granny]

Poppa Bear posted this in the "Show me the rule that allows X" thread, and I thought it raised an interesting point.

If the rules were black and white there would be no reason for an arbitration committee, or all the disagreements that take place here on the rules forum. This is also why at major matches you have the RO's, the CRO's, the Range Master, the Arbitration Committee. The RO makes a call to issue a procedural, a DQ or a change to the shooters equipment. The CRO backs him up or disagrees with his reasons. The RM can make a decision on top of that based on the RO's and CRO's decisions. If they all agree and the shooter still does not agree they can pay to arbitrate their ruling.

If the RO issues a DQ based on an observed action, and the CRO doesn't dispute the call, and then the RM is called, can he overturn the DQ and reinstate the competitor?

To narrow this down a bit, let's assume the RO isn't waffling ("well....I think his finger was in the trigger guard during the reload") and hasn't made an incorrect call (like DQ'ing someone for reloading on the move, or some other extreme example of a non-existent offense).

If it's a solid, rules-relevant call, can the RM overturn the DQ?

What? You can't reload while moving?

[ima45dv8]

To narrow this down a bit, let's assume the RO isn't waffling ("well....I think his finger was in the trigger guard during the reload") and hasn't made an incorrect call (like DQ'ing someone for reloading on the move, or some other extreme example of a non-existent offense).

If it's a solid, rules-relevant call, can the RM overturn the DQ?

What? You can't reload while moving?

Read it again.

[aztecdriver]

To narrow this down a bit, let's assume the RO isn't waffling ("well....I think his finger was in the trigger guard during the reload") and hasn't made an incorrect call (like DQ'ing someone for reloading on the move, or some other extreme example of a non-existent offense).

If it's a solid, rules-relevant call, can the RM overturn the DQ?

What? You can't reload while moving?

Just in case you miss it on the first review... he's saying you CAN - and DQ'ing someone is incorrect...

[spanky]

Poppa Bear posted this in the "Show me the rule that allows X" thread, and I thought it raised an interesting point.

If the rules were black and white there would be no reason for an arbitration committee, or all the disagreements that take place here on the rules forum. This is also why at major matches you have the RO's, the CRO's, the Range Master, the Arbitration Committee. The RO makes a call to issue a procedural, a DQ or a change to the shooters equipment. The CRO backs him up or disagrees with his reasons. The RM can make a decision on top of that based on the RO's and CRO's decisions. If they all agree and the shooter still does not agree they can pay to arbitrate their ruling.

If the RO issues a DQ based on an observed action, and the CRO doesn't dispute the call, and then the RM is called, can he overturn the DQ and reinstate the competitor?

To narrow this down a bit, let's assume the RO isn't waffling ("well....I think his finger was in the trigger guard during the reload") and hasn't made an incorrect call (like DQ'ing someone for reloading on the move, or some other extreme example of a non-existent offense).

If it's a solid, rules-relevant call, can the RM overturn the DQ?

What? You can't reload while moving?

You missed the "or some other extreme example of a non-existent offense"

[GrumpyOne]

I agree with both Troy and Gary.

It is understood that a RM can overrule a call, but we try not to do so. Many times once the heat of the moment is over, it is easy to get the RO/CRO to look at their call with a clear mind. I have seen several situations where the RO on the shooter is pretty sure there was a violation but the other RO was in a better spot to make the call. This is especially true in 180 violations and ADs over the berm. We talk it out and let the chips fall where they may. My philosophy is to back up the RO and allow the arbitration committee to overturn the call if it turned out to be bad or more likely unclear.

Jay

There is no question about a DQ there, and AD is a DQ, whether it goes over the berm or into it....

[Skydiver]

I agree with both Troy and Gary.

It is understood that a RM can overrule a call, but we try not to do so. Many times once the heat of the moment is over, it is easy to get the RO/CRO to look at their call with a clear mind. I have seen several situations where the RO on the shooter is pretty sure there was a violation but the other RO was in a better spot to make the call. This is especially true in 180 violations and ADs over the berm. We talk it out and let the chips fall where they may. My philosophy is to back up the RO and allow the arbitration committee to overturn the call if it turned out to be bad or more likely unclear.

Jay

There is no question about a DQ there, and AD is a DQ, whether it goes over the berm or into it....

Remember, though, that there a clear parameters in 10.4 about what is considered an AD.

[GrumpyOne]

An AD over the berm is a DQ...No ambiguity about it.

A competitor who causes an accidental discharge must be stopped by a Range

Officer as soon as possible. An accidental discharge is defined as follows:

10.4.1 A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction, specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being

unsafe. Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target,

which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the

provisions of Section 2.3 may apply)

The only one which may come into question is this one...10.4.2 A shot which strikes the ground within 10 feet of the competitor, except

when shooting at a paper target closer than 10 feet to the competitor.

By the above rule, at 10'1", whether it's an AD or not, it's not DQ'able...

Edited May 22, 2011 by GrumpyOne

[colt]

I DQ'ed a shooter at a state match that started with a unloaded gun. As soon as the mag it the gun it went off. it hit the burm but was not a aimed shoot. I said it was a AD but the RM said reshoot. I have séance been told by other RM there is a gray area where the reload or load ends and shooting begins.

Edited May 22, 2011 by colt

[aztecdriver]

An AD over the berm is a DQ...No ambiguity about it.

A competitor who causes an accidental discharge must be stopped by a Range

Officer as soon as possible. An accidental discharge is defined as follows:

10.4.1 A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction, specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being

unsafe. Note that a competitor who legitimately fires a shot at a target,

which then travels in an unsafe direction, will not be disqualified (the

provisions of Section 2.3 may apply)

The only one which may come into question is this one...10.4.2 A shot which strikes the ground within 10 feet of the competitor, except

when shooting at a paper target closer than 10 feet to the competitor.

By the above rule, at 10'1", whether it's an AD or not, it's not DQ'able...

I think the question was whether the shot ended up. Sometimes when you are watching the gun and it's not pointed like a mortar when it goes off - you could have a disagreement on whether it went into the berm or over it- that's the judgement i think they were referring to...

[Jadeslade]

How about a AD at ULSC that is not called by RO but witnessed by many? Can a RM call this if a complaint is lodged? I have seen this twice. Nothing was done.