Paul Santiago Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 That's subject to some limitations though -- such as the RO/CRO citing the wrong rule, misunderstanding the rule, or some other boneheaded move. Basically, overturning the DQ in the same manner an arbitration committee would.... I did exactly that this weekend at the Ohio Sectional. The shooter completed his reload and clearly fired a shot early as he was coming back up on target. I stopped and cleared him for an AD. The RM came, we checked each of the criteria for an AD and it didn't fit (10.4). It should have been unsafe gun handling (10.5.10). The shooter got a reshoot and I learned a lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 That's subject to some limitations though -- such as the RO/CRO citing the wrong rule, misunderstanding the rule, or some other boneheaded move. Basically, overturning the DQ in the same manner an arbitration committee would.... I did exactly that this weekend at the Ohio Sectional. The shooter completed his reload and clearly fired a shot early as he was coming back up on target. I stopped and cleared him for an AD. The RM came, we checked each of the criteria for an AD and it didn't fit (10.4). It should have been unsafe gun handling (10.5.10). The shooter got a reshoot and I learned a lesson. Just to claify--You stopped the shooter for a safety infraction, but you quoted the shooter the wrong rule and the shooter got a reshoot? From your post it implies the shooter did violate 10.5.10, but you (RO) quoted the wrong rule and the shooter was allowed to rehoot even though he did in fact violate 10.5.10? Are we to understand --The shooter did violate 10.5.10, but Rule 10.4 was quoted and if the shooter ARB'd the DQ, then the ARB committee would overturn the DQ so the RM issued a reshoot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I did exactly that this weekend at the Ohio Sectional. The shooter completed his reload and clearly fired a shot early as he was coming back up on target. I stopped and cleared him for an AD. The RM came, we checked each of the criteria for an AD and it didn't fit (10.4). It should have been unsafe gun handling (10.5.10). The shooter got a reshoot and I learned a lesson. Before I comment, could you clarify what it was about the shooter "fir[ing] a shot early as he was coming back up on target" which brings you to the conclusion it rose to the level of USGH? Not arguing yeah or nay at this point ... Just sayin' you haven't provided enough information for anyone to understand just what the shooter DID do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I did exactly that this weekend at the Ohio Sectional. The shooter completed his reload and clearly fired a shot early as he was coming back up on target. I stopped and cleared him for an AD. The RM came, we checked each of the criteria for an AD and it didn't fit (10.4). It should have been unsafe gun handling (10.5.10). The shooter got a reshoot and I learned a lesson. I hope this is one of those scenarios where we only have partial information. A "premature" shot fired after the reload has been completed is not an AD unless the round goes in a direction as specified in 10.4.1 and 10.4.2. That same premature shot when the shooter is going back on index is not Unsafe Gun Handling (going back on index can be considered aiming). 10.5.10 does not apply either unless the shooter is NOT aiming or shooting at targets and is "moving" per the definition in App A3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Santiago Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I did exactly that this weekend at the Ohio Sectional. The shooter completed his reload and clearly fired a shot early as he was coming back up on target. I stopped and cleared him for an AD. The RM came, we checked each of the criteria for an AD and it didn't fit (10.4). It should have been unsafe gun handling (10.5.10). The shooter got a reshoot and I learned a lesson. I hope this is one of those scenarios where we only have partial information. A "premature" shot fired after the reload has been completed is not an AD unless the round goes in a direction as specified in 10.4.1 and 10.4.2. That same premature shot when the shooter is going back on index is not Unsafe Gun Handling (going back on index can be considered aiming). 10.5.10 does not apply either unless the shooter is NOT aiming or shooting at targets and is "moving" per the definition in App A3. Agreed, it should not have been called an A. I was wrong. He WAS moving and he was bringing the gun back up and was not yet aiming when shot fired. At the position of the gun when the shot was fired, I can't see how it could be considered ' going back on index'. Please explain as I could not find in the rulebook where aiming or index was defined. That may sound like I'm being a smarta$$ but not the case. Trying to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Agreed, it should not have been called an A. I was wrong. He WAS moving and he was bringing the gun back up and was not yet aiming when shot fired. At the position of the gun when the shot was fired, I can't see how it could be considered ' going back on index'. Please explain as I could not find in the rulebook where aiming or index was defined. That may sound like I'm being a smarta$$ but not the case. Trying to learn. As a RM, what I look for on that question is "Was there a legitimate target within sight of the shooter and did he fire the round in the general direction of that target?" Absent some other criteria (e.g., 180, over the berm, hit within 10' and no target within 10', etc.) I'd have trouble supporting a DQ as you appear to be describing. Now, for argument's sake, let's say the round safely impacts the left side berm (no 180, etc.) but the ONLY visible targets at that point were on the right side berm, I think I could support a 10.5.10. Admitedly, it's a judgement call ... one that must be made on the facts and circumstances present at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) I did exactly that this weekend at the Ohio Sectional. The shooter completed his reload and clearly fired a shot early as he was coming back up on target. I stopped and cleared him for an AD. The RM came, we checked each of the criteria for an AD and it didn't fit (10.4). It should have been unsafe gun handling (10.5.10). The shooter got a reshoot and I learned a lesson. I hope this is one of those scenarios where we only have partial information. A "premature" shot fired after the reload has been completed is not an AD unless the round goes in a direction as specified in 10.4.1 and 10.4.2. That same premature shot when the shooter is going back on index is not Unsafe Gun Handling (going back on index can be considered aiming). 10.5.10 does not apply either unless the shooter is NOT aiming or shooting at targets and is "moving" per the definition in App A3. I am not trying to be a smarta$$ either, but I cannot find the definition of a "premature shot" in the USPSA rule book or how this term is supposed to be used? Seems to me the term should have a clear and precise rule to determine how and when a "premature shot" is to be used.. I have been an RO/CRO for some years and I'm just trying to build my knowledge base. Edited May 23, 2011 by lcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) How about a AD at ULSC that is not called by RO but witnessed by many? Can a RM call this if a complaint is lodged? I have seen this twice. Nothing was done. Was the shooter really finished? Remember that the command is "If you are finished, unload and show clear." If the shooter sees one more target and decides to take one more shot... Now if a shot goes of after "If clear, hammer down, holster", then definitely a DQ for an AD. Edited May 23, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I did exactly that this weekend at the Ohio Sectional. The shooter completed his reload and clearly fired a shot early as he was coming back up on target. I stopped and cleared him for an AD. The RM came, we checked each of the criteria for an AD and it didn't fit (10.4). It should have been unsafe gun handling (10.5.10). The shooter got a reshoot and I learned a lesson. I hope this is one of those scenarios where we only have partial information. A "premature" shot fired after the reload has been completed is not an AD unless the round goes in a direction as specified in 10.4.1 and 10.4.2. That same premature shot when the shooter is going back on index is not Unsafe Gun Handling (going back on index can be considered aiming). 10.5.10 does not apply either unless the shooter is NOT aiming or shooting at targets and is "moving" per the definition in App A3. I am not trying to be a smarta$$ either, but I cannot find the definition of a "premature shot" in the USPSA rule book or how this term is supposed to be used? Seems to me the term should have a clear and precise rule to determine how and when a "premeture shot" is to be used.. I have been an RO/CRO for some years and I'm just trying to build my knowledge base. Having been on the clock side of this and seen some REALLY COOL videos -- let me ask a couple of questions? OK? Can I shoot from the hip? can I shoot with the gun at belly level? Can I spray the entire way from my hip to a full iso- stance? If I can do all of these engagements - how do you discern from them and an AD? (other than the rules of 10.4?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 That's subject to some limitations though -- such as the RO/CRO citing the wrong rule, misunderstanding the rule, or some other boneheaded move. Basically, overturning the DQ in the same manner an arbitration committee would.... I did exactly that this weekend at the Ohio Sectional. The shooter completed his reload and clearly fired a shot early as he was coming back up on target. I stopped and cleared him for an AD. The RM came, we checked each of the criteria for an AD and it didn't fit (10.4). It should have been unsafe gun handling (10.5.10). The shooter got a reshoot and I learned a lesson. I think this is one of the toughest rules to enforce properly because of all the gray associated with it. There is little doubt that the shot was not intentionally fired when it was. The gray areas involve was the reload completed? If the gun chambered a new round then yes. No 10.4.3 violation. Was the round greater than 10' away at point of impact? If yes then no 10.4.2 violation. Did it go over the berm? If not then no 10.4.1 violation. Did it happen during movement and while NOT actively engaging targets? This is the biggest gray area because it is very subjective as to what is engaging a target? 1' from the target? 5', 10'... where do we draw the line and turn it into a 10.4.6 violation of shooting while not engaging targets? Nobody wants to DQ someone but we also cannot let everything go unchecked and disregard 10.4 and 10.5 except for the most flagrant violations. I think all you can do is STOP the shooter and see if any criteria are met for the DQ as per 10.4.1 to 10.4.5 and then decide if they meet 10.4.6. Then just let the chips fall where they may. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) Poppa Bear ... You just completed your RO class about 8 days ago. What do you think your instructor's answer would likely have been? (You already have mine at post #31.) I refuse to put a "feet and inches" measurement on the question. I look to see if there is any target in the general direction in which the shooter shot that could rationally be considered for "engagement." (Remember ... We're assuming no other rules violation here.) It IS a judgement call in a case like this. That's why ROs get paid all the big bucks! Edited May 23, 2011 by Schutzenmeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Poppa Bear ... You just completed your RO class about 8 days ago. What do you think your instructor's answer would likely have been? (You already have mine at post #31.) I refuse to put a "feet and inches" measurement on the question. I look to see if there is any target in the general direction in which the shooter shot that could rationally be considered for "engagement." (Remember ... We're assuming no other rules violation here.) It IS a judgement call in a case like this. That's why ROs get paid all the big bucks! I know what his call would have been BUT I will always have a problem with unintended discharges. It is one thing if the discharge is between one target to the next of an array as you transition targets. It is another when it is from one array to the next as they complete a reload as defined by the fact that a fresh round was chambered. "Booger hook off the bang switch until you are READY to engage the targets again." So a discharge that is a split second after the reload is questionable in regards to finger out of the trigger guard while reloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 ... So a discharge that is a split second after the reload is questionable in regards to finger out of the trigger guard while reloading. Potentially ... But you must SEE the finger in the trigger guard DURING the reload to make a legitimate call under 10.5.9. Remember back to your practical exercise on Sunday ... The RO on the clipboard should theoretically be in the best position to see this. This is one of the reasons they teach you to have the timer RO on the strong side and the clipboard RO on the weak side of the shooter. Officiating is best approached as a "team" event! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 How about a AD at ULSC that is not called by RO but witnessed by many? Can a RM call this if a complaint is lodged? I have seen this twice. Nothing was done. Was the shooter really finished? Remember that the command is "If you are finished, unload and show clear." If the shooter sees one more target and decides to take one more shot... Now if a shot goes of after "If clear, hammer down, holster", then definitely a DQ for an AD. Yeah-I get it. nobody wants to touch this. See me at a match sometime and I will tell you who it was and why it probably wasn't called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 How about a AD at ULSC that is not called by RO but witnessed by many? Can a RM call this if a complaint is lodged? I have seen this twice. Nothing was done. Was the shooter really finished? Remember that the command is "If you are finished, unload and show clear." If the shooter sees one more target and decides to take one more shot... Now if a shot goes of after "If clear, hammer down, holster", then definitely a DQ for an AD. Yeah-I get it. nobody wants to touch this. See me at a match sometime and I will tell you who it was and why it probably wasn't called. Your official recourse there might be a 3rd party appeal. I'd probably get right with the RO and let them know not to sign the score sheet yet...not sure that would make a difference. (Your question probably deserves it's own thread.) Unofficially, I'd certainly get with the RO...CRO...RM...and Match Director and make sure that the situation was clearly hashed out and the right call was made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 (edited) How about a AD at ULSC that is not called by RO but witnessed by many? Can a RM call this if a complaint is lodged? I have seen this twice. Nothing was done. Was the shooter really finished? Remember that the command is "If you are finished, unload and show clear." If the shooter sees one more target and decides to take one more shot... Now if a shot goes of after "If clear, hammer down, holster", then definitely a DQ for an AD. Yeah-I get it. nobody wants to touch this. See me at a match sometime and I will tell you who it was and why it probably wasn't called. I think to better clarify the situation it should be determined at what point the discharge took place? If the shooter approached it like a speed event and started IYAFUSC before it was called and then went into ICHDH before the RO started the words or as he was just uttering the words then it is a DQ for having a shot go off during ICHDH. If the shooter was still at the show clear stage and they were actively clearing the gun and touched off a round then a DQ. If they were not in the unloading process then no DQ for the discharge as long as it was pointed in the general direction of the targets. I guess it all comes down to where their support hand was at when the discharge took place. Edited May 24, 2011 by Poppa Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 How about a AD at ULSC that is not called by RO but witnessed by many? Can a RM call this if a complaint is lodged? I have seen this twice. Nothing was done. Was the shooter really finished? Remember that the command is "If you are finished, unload and show clear." If the shooter sees one more target and decides to take one more shot... Now if a shot goes of after "If clear, hammer down, holster", then definitely a DQ for an AD. Yeah-I get it. nobody wants to touch this. See me at a match sometime and I will tell you who it was and why it probably wasn't called. I think to better clarify the situation it should be determined at what point the discharge took place? If the shooter approached it like a speed event and started IYAFUSC before it was called and then went into ICHDH before the RO started the words or as he was just uttering the words then it is a DQ for having a shot go off during ICHDH. If the shooter was still at the show clear stage and they were actively clearing the gun and touched off a round then a DQ. If they were not in the unloading process then no DQ for the discharge as long as it was pointed in the general direction of the targets. I guess it all comes down to where their support hand was at when the discharge took place. So, I can't take my last shot SHO with my mag in my weak hand? I believe I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 (edited) How about a AD at ULSC that is not called by RO but witnessed by many? Can a RM call this if a complaint is lodged? I have seen this twice. Nothing was done. Was the shooter really finished? Remember that the command is "If you are finished, unload and show clear." If the shooter sees one more target and decides to take one more shot... Now if a shot goes of after "If clear, hammer down, holster", then definitely a DQ for an AD. Yeah-I get it. nobody wants to touch this. See me at a match sometime and I will tell you who it was and why it probably wasn't called. I think to better clarify the situation it should be determined at what point the discharge took place? If the shooter approached it like a speed event and started IYAFUSC before it was called and then went into ICHDH before the RO started the words or as he was just uttering the words then it is a DQ for having a shot go off during ICHDH. If the shooter was still at the show clear stage and they were actively clearing the gun and touched off a round then a DQ. If they were not in the unloading process then no DQ for the discharge as long as it was pointed in the general direction of the targets. I guess it all comes down to where their support hand was at when the discharge took place. So, I can't take my last shot SHO with my mag in my weak hand? I believe I can. As long as the mag is out of the gun when you do it. If you are pulling it out as the gun goes off... 10.4.3 violation Which is better than having your support hand on the slide..... 10.4.3 violation Honestly I think it is usually pretty easy to see who shot on purpose and who was as surprised as everyone else if it goes BANG!! Edited to add the words in RED Edited May 25, 2011 by Poppa Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Lemme put it like this. I'm not done with the stage until I show an empty chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 How about a AD at ULSC that is not called by RO but witnessed by many? Can a RM call this if a complaint is lodged? I have seen this twice. Nothing was done. Was the shooter really finished? Remember that the command is "If you are finished, unload and show clear." If the shooter sees one more target and decides to take one more shot... Now if a shot goes of after "If clear, hammer down, holster", then definitely a DQ for an AD. Yeah-I get it. nobody wants to touch this. See me at a match sometime and I will tell you who it was and why it probably wasn't called. Your official recourse there might be a 3rd party appeal. I'd probably get right with the RO and let them know not to sign the score sheet yet...not sure that would make a difference. (Your question probably deserves it's own thread.) Unofficially, I'd certainly get with the RO...CRO...RM...and Match Director and make sure that the situation was clearly hashed out and the right call was made. Yeah-I didn't mean to hijack the thread. When I have seen this, it s a too slick gun handler not waiting for the RO , inexperienced ROs, and a lot of shooting going on in bays and berms close by. But when they go over the treetops and everybody looks at each other....nobody wants to be the guy that called that shooter on it. I'm as guilty as anybody-it can make for a messy situation. Be worse if some news writer or enemy of the state used it as a bad example-why I am a little leery of discussing it in open forum. DVC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Lemme put it like this. I'm not done with the stage until I show an empty chamber. Show the empty chamber to who? We have all seen the shooters who as the RO is calling "If You Are Finished...." has already sped past that and gone straight into the "If Clear Hammer...." portion without showing the chamber to the RO. Which raises an interesting question. If the shooter goes from If You are Finished straight into Hammer Down Holster before the RO can even finish the Unload and Show Clear command let alone utter the words ICHDH AND the gun goes bang do you DQ them? 8.3.7 says the shooter cannot shoot after this command but there is no prohibition against firing a shot while still in the Unload and Show Clear phase which is where the RO's last spoken words were at. I know how I would call it but how would the CRO's and RM's call it? BY the way I have never seen this happen and hope to never see it happen BUT the way I interpret the rules seems to not always coincide with how the CRO's and RM's interpret them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Lemme put it like this. I'm not done with the stage until I show an empty chamber. Show the empty chamber to who? We have all seen the shooters who as the RO is calling "If You Are Finished...." has already sped past that and gone straight into the "If Clear Hammer...." portion without showing the chamber to the RO. The RO of course. Who else? As far as the guy that unloads and hammers down before I can see an empty chamber, he gets to do it again. Which raises an interesting question. If the shooter goes from If You are Finished straight into Hammer Down Holster before the RO can even finish the Unload and Show Clear command let alone utter the words ICHDH AND the gun goes bang do you DQ them? 8.3.7 says the shooter cannot shoot after this command but there is no prohibition against firing a shot while still in the Unload and Show Clear phase which is where the RO's last spoken words were at. I know how I would call it but how would the CRO's and RM's call it? BY the way I have never seen this happen and hope to never see it happen BUT the way I interpret the rules seems to not always coincide with how the CRO's and RM's interpret them. That's all on him. That's another one of those situations where we all know what's going on and if he has screwed up his speed unload, too bad. It's kinda like porn. Hard to define but I know it when I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 The shooting of the stage is not finished until "Range is clear" has been pronounced. In the same vein as a dropped gun. Drop your gun before I say "Range is clear", and you are going home. Drop it an instant after I call that range command and we follow the protocol for a dropped gun sans the dq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 And G_d help you (the generic "you") if you have to dq someone if you are using the wrong range commands! Not to rant, but at level 2 and above matches, the RO/CRO staff MUST be on the same page! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Micah! What the hell is that on your head? Were you with your head when it got there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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