kevin c Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I had the white stripe (nail polish - dunno how a female gets that stuff on w/o making a mess). Shot a match this weekend without it. Didn't do too well (haven't been practicing seriously this year), but the reloads went in the way they always do. If I need the mark for practice, I'll put one on. I'll just have to take it off before shooting a match. I worry that a lot of Production shooters are going to learn about this the hard way. I don't make it a habit (mebbe I should) to review all the NROI rulings before going off to a major, and it wouldn't occur to me to think that something accepted as nearly SOP is now officially ruled out of bounds; it was just luck my reading this here. I hope there won't be a lot of Production shooters bumped to Open at upcoming major matches because they haven't heard the news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I removed the green nail polish I had put on the interior of my mag well over the weekend ( didn't want to wait for a ruling ), but it looks like I did the right thing anyway. By the way, Non-Acetone nail polish remover took it right off and didn't take any of the finish off. Not sure if it would work on White-Out, but it did the trick for me. The ironic thing is, in the two matches I shot with the paint on there....i don't recall seeing the mark once! Guess I really need to practice my reloads....a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I get that it isn't a democracy, and we don't get to simply not abide by rules with which we happen to disagree. I've personally never had paint or whiteout or anything on my magwells, so this doesn't affect me in the least. Still, it seems pretty heavy handed and a bit short sighted to hand down this ruling considering how common the paint is in other shooting sports and even among "tactical" types. I just think USPSA took a stand on something pretty inconsequential, and in doing so took a bit of a step backward. That's got nothing to do with USPSA rules. Who cares what other diciplines mandate? We're talking about USPSA rules. If a tactibilly-type (like me) had the foesight to paint the inside of his magwell to facilitate reloads, he'd most likely already be a USPSA shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) I worry that a lot of Production shooters are going to learn about this the hard way. I don't make it a habit (mebbe I should) to review all the NROI rulings before going off to a major, and it wouldn't occur to me to think that something accepted as nearly SOP is now officially ruled out of bounds; it was just luck my reading this here. I hope there won't be a lot of Production shooters bumped to Open at upcoming major matches because they haven't heard the news. A great point and I posted this change to our webpage and sent out a mass email to the 230+ email addresses I have for shooters who have shot in the Section, along with an email to all Match Directors asking them to inform their shooters. As I have a Section Meeting this weekend and our Area Director is attending, I'll also ask him to post it on the Area webpage as well. Frankly, any changes that the BOD votes on should be posted on all area webpages (even though we know that not everyone visits them or local/section pages). We have to make the attempt to inform people. Edited April 7, 2011 by vluc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) That's got nothing to do with USPSA rules. Who cares what other diciplines mandate? We're talking about USPSA rules. Every time we restrict our definition of "legal" for our various Divisions, we lose potential shooters who just want to show up and "run what they brung".... who maybe don't want to invest in special equipment jsut to shoot that "expensive" game USPSA. Sure they could shoot another Division with their outclassed gun, for that first, or occasional, match, but do you think they will want to come back? I have no problems with basic rules..... but arbitrarily adding various rulings that make no sense, on, seemingly at random, and whim, just doesn't present the easy to grasp rule set that Production and Single Stack should be. (and for whats it worth I did not use the barber poles on my magwells.) Edited April 7, 2011 by sfinney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Every time we restrict our definition of "legal" for our various Divisions, we lose potential shooters who just want to show up and "run what they brung".... who maybe don't want to invest in special equipment jsut to shoot that "expensive" game USPSA. Sure they could shoot another Division with their outclassed gun, for that first, or occasional, match, but do you think they will want to come back? I have no problems with basic rules..... but arbitrarily adding various rulings that make no sense, on, seemingly at random, and whim, just doesn't present the easy to grasp rule set that Production and Single Stack should be. (and for whats it worth I did not use the barber poles on my magwells.) Exactly. The white-out in the mag opening is becoming incredibly common. It's a "free" mod that virtually anyone can do, and it doesn't fundamentally change the function of the gun. In fact, I would argue that a production gun with new sights has been altered far more than a production gun with a bit of white out applied to it. When new shooters come out they often shoot production (provided they bring enough mags). From now on the guy bringing his Glock 19 with white out in the mag opening (that doesn't necessarily even provide an advantage) has to shoot Open while I with my G34 with Sevigny sights, grip plug, grip tape, franken-trigger, and steel guide rod shoot "production." Can anyone else see how the new guy would be a little bit confused by the rules, especially when they ask an experienced shooter why the white-out is illegal, and the answer is, "I have no idea - it doesn't make sense to me either"? I really love the Production division. I think it's a great challenge to shoot accurately and hit all the reloads in order to score well. However, I have no doubt that eventually I'm going to get tired of navigating the ever-confusing Production ruleset and I'll just shoot Limited. The question is, do you want potential new shooters to get fed up with Production division before they even get classified? Because that's where I can see this heading... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I really love the Production division. I think it's a great challenge to shoot accurately and hit all the reloads in order to score well. However, I have no doubt that eventually I'm going to get tired of navigating the ever-confusing Production ruleset and I'll just shoot Limited. I guess I don't see it as an "ever-confusing Production ruleset" --- after all, I buy a gun, some mags and mag pouches, and a belt, and go shoot Production. There you go. Not too confusing. Now, if you want to modify your firearm somehow, then yes, you have to pay attention to the rules. (I think they allow too much, myself, but I don't really care.) So follow the rules---all you have to do is shoot with the gun you bought. Now, if you want to change the gun and do various things to it for an advantage (competitive or not) then yes, you need to pay attention to the rule specifics, and those details do get nitpicky. I don't, however see this as being a huge problem with respect to new shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) Lot's of good comments here, both positive and negative. I hope you are sharing them with your Section Coordinators and Area Directors and not just posting them here where they don't do much good in getting a message to those who make the decisions. Edited April 7, 2011 by vluc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Burwell Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I get that it isn't a democracy Oh but it is, we elect these guys that make the rules. If we don't like their decisions we have to let them know Lot's of good comments here, both positive and negative. I hope you are sharing them with your Section Coordinators and Area Directors and not just posting them here where they don't do much good in getting a message to those who make the decisions. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I guess I don't see it as an "ever-confusing Production ruleset" --- after all, I buy a gun, some mags and mag pouches, and a belt, and go shoot Production. There you go. Not too confusing. Thanks for the discussion, but you can't possibly honestly think those who shoot Production simply pull their gun out of the tupperware it came in and strap it to their hip... Now, if you want to modify your firearm somehow, then yes, you have to pay attention to the rules. (I think they allow too much, myself, but I don't really care.) So follow the rules---all you have to do is shoot with the gun you bought. Now, if you want to change the gun and do various things to it for an advantage (competitive or not) then yes, you need to pay attention to the rule specifics, and those details do get nitpicky. I don't, however see this as being a huge problem with respect to new shooters. Virtually everyone wants to modify their gear somehow, whether it's numbering their magazines or replacing springs or swapping in aftermarket sights. The point is that the rules should be easy and intuitive to understand. I think this paint-in-the-magwell thing goes in the opposite direction. The answer in Production to "what can I do to my gun" should be either "nothing," or something simple like "sights, springs, grips." When you start getting into the whole "stippling is ok(permanent) but not paint in the magwell (temporary), milling for sights is ok but not milling for cocking serrations, fiberglass in the grip plug area is ok but not around the beavertail..." it gets confusing, especially for new shooters who expect Production to be simple. I just see this decision as something that doesn't make a lick of difference in terms of the competitive landscape, but that creates an added item that must be communicated to new shooters, especially those who have shot in other shooting sports, who have taken a "tactical" class, who have seen the Magpull DVDs, who have access to the internet, or who have friends who have done any of the above (so pretty much everyone). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 When does Amidon come up for re-election? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 When does Amidon come up for re-election? He doesn't. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Burwell Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 When does Amidon come up for re-election? from the USPSA bylaws: The Director shall be selected from a pool of applicants by majority vote of the Board of Directors and may be removed at any time, with or without cause, only by the Board of Directors, with a written 30-day notice. FWIW I think John does a good job, we don't always agree, but I believe him to be very consistant in his interpretation and application of the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centermass Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I guess I don't see it as an "ever-confusing Production ruleset" --- after all, I buy a gun, some mags and mag pouches, and a belt, and go shoot Production. There you go. Not too confusing. Thanks for the discussion, but you can't possibly honestly think those who shoot Production simply pull their gun out of the tupperware it came in and strap it to their hip... Honestly, YES! I can, and do. And perform better than most with performance enhanced hardware. It's the Indian, not the arrows that count... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 When does Amidon come up for re-election? from the USPSA bylaws: The Director shall be selected from a pool of applicants by majority vote of the Board of Directors and may be removed at any time, with or without cause, only by the Board of Directors, with a written 30-day notice. FWIW I think John does a good job, we don't always agree, but I believe him to be very consistant in his interpretation and application of the rules. The BOD votes to approve any changes that are brought up. John does not do it by fiat. He provided us his opinion, the BOD ratified that opinion as a rule change. I don't know how the vote went, who agreed or disagreed, what conversations may have been raised, nothing. Maybe minutes will give us an answer, maybe an AD posting will provide one. Enough areas are represented in this thread, ask your AD and see what they have to say. Dan, I agree with part of your comment, not with the other. Consistency would indicate we could see what direction a ruling may go based on earlier ones. Grip stippling, internal mag well and plugs threw me the last round - did not see those coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Burwell Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Dan, I agree with part of your comment, not with the other. Consistency would indicate we could see what direction a ruling may go based on earlier ones. Grip stippling, internal mag well and plugs threw me the last round - did not see those coming. Those came with a bigger clarifications, I could be wrong but I do not believe those went the way John wanted them to go, but the direction the BOD wanted. Pretty much any thing else I asked John I could alway predict what answer I was going to get, no matter how well I had written my argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I can understand some of the dissension that this topic can cause. Grip tape is legal. There is no ruling that states that the grip tape must be Black. Therefore using Red, or Green, or Orange, or a Neon color is perfectly legal. Instead of painting the magwell you can install tape so that the magwell stands out with its natural color. What does this accomplish? Another way to circumvent the rules and turn Production into an equipment race. "Why did you put on that color of grip tape?" "Because I cannot change the inside color of the magwell, I changed the color of my grips" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glefos Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 You can spend almost double the price of the stock gun on upgrades and still be Production legal, but a little nail polish mark is not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I guess I don't see it as an "ever-confusing Production ruleset" --- after all, I buy a gun, some mags and mag pouches, and a belt, and go shoot Production. There you go. Not too confusing. Thanks for the discussion, but you can't possibly honestly think those who shoot Production simply pull their gun out of the tupperware it came in and strap it to their hip... Honestly, YES! I can, and do. And perform better than most with performance enhanced hardware. It's the Indian, not the arrows that count... If it's the Indian, and not the arrow, then it shouldn't matter if one Indian comes with a short bow, and another comes with a compound bow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I think the Indian/Arrow comment (despite any obvious racial insensitivity) has been done to death. Give me a bone-stock G34 with the crappy plastic sights and no grip tape for one stage, and my "tuned" G34 for another stage and you can bet I'll shoot better with the better gun. Equipment makes a difference, there's no denying it (unless you want to argue we should go back to the old days without any divisions...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I guess I don't see it as an "ever-confusing Production ruleset" --- after all, I buy a gun, some mags and mag pouches, and a belt, and go shoot Production. There you go. Not too confusing. Thanks for the discussion, but you can't possibly honestly think those who shoot Production simply pull their gun out of the tupperware it came in and strap it to their hip... Honestly, YES! I can, and do. And perform better than most with performance enhanced hardware. It's the Indian, not the arrows that count... Yep. Precisely what I did. Had no trouble making B-class on initial classification with a stock G34, didn't even change out the sights until after that. (And only really bothered because I saw a couple of people sheer off their plastic front sights by not using ports too well.) Did a 25 cent trigger job on it after that---and that's what I've been running in Production. Hadn't ever competed before, walked right in and started shooting. Have talked a number of other people into starting USPSA based completely on the fact that indeed, you can be solidly competitive with a stock, out-of-the-box gun, some Fobus mag pouches, and an Uncle Mike's holster. Which is how I started. And how many others I shoot with started. Yes, I've gotten a better set of mag pouches since, and also use a Blade-Tech DOH---but as to the gun, you really don't need to do anything if you want to be competitive. (Hey, I made Master with that rig---so ANYBODY can do it just fine with a stock gun.) I _do_ actually think that many new competitors do indeed (having bought a gun) simply bring it to a match and start shooting Production. Why not? That is what it is for---and it works perfectly well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 When new shooters come out they often shoot production (provided they bring enough mags). From now on the guy bringing his Glock 19 with white out in the mag opening (that doesn't necessarily even provide an advantage) has to shoot Open while I with my G34 with Sevigny sights, grip plug, grip tape, franken-trigger, and steel guide rod shoot "production." That would be confusing if it was anywhere near accurate. Fortunately it's not. You're hypothetical shooter with the G19 would just shoot Lim 10, or Limited, or remove the little dab of white out till he got home again. The only way he would be in Open is if he was bumped from Production because someone didn't let him know about his illegal gun. SFinney. You make the argument that we're driving people away with oppressive impossible to understand rules and we should let people have these minor modifications. We do, in almost every other Division. Production is the only one this mark is not allowed in. I would make the argument that many more people have come to USPSA exactly because there is a division for stock or nearly stock guns. There was no official vote by the BOD on this ruling. I didn't agree with it, but the rules are actually pretty clear cut. You're changing the finish for a competetive advantage. Which is specifically prohibited. As much as I wanted it to go the other way, I can't really argue that it's ever been legal to do in Production. I did ask John to issue the ruling because of the seeming amount of confusion regarding the rule. This is not a rule change or even really a clarification. It's specifically stated in the rules you can't do it. For the grip tape crowd, I brought this up and the answer was basically good luck. I really doubt there would be any advantage to doing so. If you put it on the outside of the gun well you really can't see it. If you put in the magwell...who am I kidding, who would be dumb enough to put skateboard tape in their magwell? I've got a hard enough time getting them in the gun without making the opening smaller and stickier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I can understand some of the dissension that this topic can cause. Grip tape is legal. There is no ruling that states that the grip tape must be Black. Therefore using Red, or Green, or Orange, or a Neon color is perfectly legal. Instead of painting the magwell you can install tape so that the magwell stands out with its natural color. What does this accomplish? Another way to circumvent the rules and turn Production into an equipment race. "Why did you put on that color of grip tape?" "Because I cannot change the inside color of the magwell, I changed the color of my grips" Hell, that's actually a great idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 That would be confusing if it was anywhere near accurate. Fortunately it's not. You're hypothetical shooter with the G19 would just shoot Lim 10, or Limited, or remove the little dab of white out till he got home again. The only way he would be in Open is if he was bumped from Production because someone didn't let him know about his illegal gun. Ok, he would shoot L10 or Limited minor, if someone noticed the paint in time. If not, it's off to Open for him. And when they do tell him he's in Limited or L10 due to his white out, the question is likely to be "why?" The answer of course is, "No one knows. We don't understand the rule, but we have to abide by it." Assuming those at the top have an interest in growing the sport, is that the message that new shooters are supposed to be getting? I mean, I can explain the other rules of Production even if I don't agree with them, but with this one I'm at a loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 I mean, I can explain the other rules of Production even if I don't agree with them, but with this one I'm at a loss. Hm. To me this one makes perfect sense. Why would you put a dot on the gun where you could see it? Answer: to provide a competitive advantage. Now, if you were to ask me why some magwell-work (visible in the same way) is now legal in Production, I wouldn't be able to explain that one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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