Abandoning Pistol

[J.Schmitt]

Interesting how the same topic up in the rules banner has an almost 100 percent opposite direction as it applies to this topic. Most hear are for unloaded being the safest, most there are for safety on being the safest practice.

Jay

Edited March 24, 2011 by J.Schmitt

[esskay]

In pistol matches, I've run both a STI and Glock -- and I am better with the STI. But typical 3-gun matches (at least that I usually attend) have rather limited pistol round counts. The Glock is easy to dump, quickly and safely. The STI brings up the question of using the safety vs unloading, and risk of DQs.

I am curious to hear the thought processes of those who have made the decision between running STI vs Glock (or M&P/etc) in 3-gun.

I'm also curious whether anyone runs a different pistol depending on the match? For instance, I just shot SMM3G using my G34 and there wasn't much pistol work that I felt I could have done much better with an STI, and it was quick and easy to dump the Glock. But reviewing match video of the Ozark match, for instance, there seem to be a bunch of pistol shots on small steel -- and I tend to do better with the STI on those types of targets.

[Bryan 45]

I've been practicing some with clearing the pistol before grounding, but I've run into a problem. With my single stack and 230g FMJ reloads, the OAL of the loaded round is greater than the length of the ejection port, which requires me to do a little dance to jiggle the round out. I think I'm going to continue to ground on SAFE rather than have to work up a new load w/ a shorter OAL before the next match.....

And "get a glock" is not an option!

[TMC]

I engage the safety and keep my thumb underneath it, as I release the pistol I drag my thumb straight back, so as my hand come off my hand is in a thumbs-up position.

[usp45ss]

Little clarification question. When you drop the mag and rack the slide, do you put it back on safe when you ground it?

[MarkCO]

Stage 3 at SMM3G caught a few shooters, one a consistent top ten finisher, with the safety coming off.

[DyNo!]

Little clarification question. When you drop the mag and rack the slide, do you put it back on safe when you ground it?

If I have time I do.

[AustinT]

I've been practicing some with clearing the pistol before grounding, but I've run into a problem. With my single stack and 230g FMJ reloads, the OAL of the loaded round is greater than the length of the ejection port, which requires me to do a little dance to jiggle the round out. I think I'm going to continue to ground on SAFE rather than have to work up a new load w/ a shorter OAL before the next match.....

And "get a glock" is not an option!

My 1911 and 200gr SWC loads do the same thing, as I found out at the last OKC local match...

[StealthyBlagga]

I retired my old 2011 in favor of an M&P9 for exactly this reason - set it and forget it.

But you have to shoot an M&P!

Of course - how many guns are so tacticool that they have BOTH "military" AND "police" in their name ???

[DocMedic]

Stage 3 at SMM3G caught a few shooters, one a consistent top ten finisher, with the safety coming off.

After watching his DQ, I started to wonder what it would take to disengage the safety on my 2011. So I experimented a bit, first thing I did was engage the safety and toss it on a table, slide across the table drop it sideways on the table etc etc, safety didn't disengage held steady, but carpet was a different story, It wouldn't disengage when I would slide it across my carpet but when I would do a hand drag drop it would disengage it, more so if I held the barrel down and slid just the rear, much like how the drop buckets were designed for the pistol at SMM3G. So basically after seeing this I'll be starting to work on keeping my thumb under the safety till the moment the pistol is in the bucket FIRMLY before letting go of the pistol.

[mmchambers06]

I engage the safety and keep my thumb underneath it, as I release the pistol I drag my thumb straight back, so as my hand come off my hand is in a thumbs-up position.

If I'm shooting from where I need to dump it, I'll do the same. I also look at it as I am removing my hand.

[dchang0]

This might be an opportunity for an enterprising company to make a more secure safety lever, perhaps by making it harder to disengage or modifying the profile so that it doesn't snag on the box/carpet while still being easy to operate.

Would be interesting to see a safety lever that has a built-in lock.

[RiggerJJ]

This might be an opportunity for an enterprising company to make a more secure safety lever, perhaps by making it harder to disengage or modifying the profile so that it doesn't snag on the box/carpet while still being easy to operate.

Would be interesting to see a safety lever that has a built-in lock.

OR we could get all the matches to STOP using laydown boxes that knock the safety off and use muzzle straight down buckets/boxes/etc that don't touch the safety...

jj

[HRider]

I drop the mag and rack it, then drop the hammer and put it into the box, bucket, etc. On occasion, it works out to where I shoot to slide lock and drop the mag and put the pistol in the box with the slide locked open.

Hurley

[Pro2AInPA]

Little clarification question. When you drop the mag and rack the slide, do you put it back on safe when you ground it?

I normally empty the gun, drop the hammer on an empty chamber, then ground the pistol.

[Chris]

Speed unloads suck and are potentially more dangerous than just setting the gun down with the safety on.

[ericm]

I agree w/ Chris above and JJ is on the right track further above

We have reached a sad state of affairs in 3-gun with no easy way forward when:

1. Matches issue a DQ for an unsafe gun abandonment (not unloaded and not on "safe") and most abandonment cradles, etc. are not pointed into the ground (unlike RM3G) and have protrusions, carpet, etc. seemingly DESIGNED to snag a manual safety. Couple this with stage design that puts the shooter and others downrange of the abandoned gun, match staff "clearing" abandoned guns in the name of stage turn-around times, competitors engaged in all-out racing, and the odds are stacked against the shooter that "sometime" he will FU.

2. The only handgun designs SINGLED OUT for these kinds of DQ's are single action (e.g. 1911 style or CZ-75 style) pistols due to the EXPOSED manual safety. I have seen HEAVILY MODIFIED Glock, XD and M&P "Safe Action"-type pistols put down fully loaded (and these WOULD FIRE if picked up and the trigger pressed) and never questioned by the Match staff as to if all the original safeties (internal and unseen) are even intact.

I say:

1. Stop the DQ madness for abandonment (i.e. speed unloading in all it's forms, safety on or not, this kind of gun, that kind of gun) and concentrate on where the gun muzzle ends up (STRAIGHT DOWN INTO THE DIRT, even below ground level (or sandbagged in), with no way for the gun to tip and point elsewhere.

2. If the competitor screws up (i.e. misses the abandonment "bunker" with a careless toss, etc.), then he is stopped right there and the DQ is for a dropped gun (already well defined and followed). No more "great run!", "Oh, shooter.....", "DQ: safety is off (and we were too lazy to make a "bullet-proof" abandonment scheme)

[ericm]

...oh, and off topic a little, BUT DO THE SAME WITH RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS!

...and to expand slightly, if the gun is discharged while abandoning: DQ. If the gun is discharged while retrieving and Unload and show clear: DQ.

Simple, no DQ for putting the gun down safely, no matter the condition, IF THE MUZZLE CANNOT POINT ANYWHERE BUT DOWN!!!!

[THM7]

Pretty sure they are not going to change the rules. I normally shoot a 2011 STI but for the SMM3G I shot my G34. It was so pistol "lite" (unless you opted for pistol on stage 2) that it made little difference.

[Doug H.]

We adjusted the rules for the Northwest Multigun Challenge this year so that you do not DQ if you put the gun down in a safe location but not in the proper condition. You will zero the stage, but at least you can keep playing.

Doug

[assaulter]

I don't get all the drama with requiring the safety on. Whether you shoot a DA only or a manual safety gun, it won't discharge unless you press the trigger. Is a Glock or M&P really any more safe than an STI with the safety lever off?

[mmchambers06]

We adjusted the rules for the Northwest Multigun Challenge this year so that you do not DQ if you put the gun down in a safe location but not in the proper condition. You will zero the stage, but at least you can keep playing.Doug

I like this...as long as you're not moving to a position that's downrange of the loaded weapon. That's how we play in my neck of the woods.

I don't get all the drama with requiring the safety on. Whether you shoot a DA only or a manual safety gun, it won't discharge unless you press the trigger. Is a Glock or M&P really any more safe than an STI with the safety lever off?

It's the same reason you put on the safety when the gun is holstered. Murphy's a punk.

[Doug H.]

We adjusted the rules for the Northwest Multigun Challenge this year so that you do not DQ if you put the gun down in a safe location but not in the proper condition. You will zero the stage, but at least you can keep playing.Doug

I like this...as long as you're not moving to a position that's downrange of the loaded weapon. That's how we play in my neck of the woods.

That is what the course designer is supposed to do, make safe drop locations so that the shooter cannot advance in front of any firearm. Whether it is pointing straight into the ground or into a berm as long as if the gun fires it can't hit anything but dirt.

Doug

[mmchambers06]

Yep. Is it spelled out in the rules anywhere? It should be.

[DyNo!]

We adjusted the rules for the Northwest Multigun Challenge this year so that you do not DQ if you put the gun down in a safe location but not in the proper condition. You will zero the stage, but at least you can keep playing.

Doug

I like that.