2011 USPSA MultiGun Nationals

[Flexmoney]

Just out of curiosity....doesn't the rule book say the fault line must be a certain thickness......doesn't say in there that it must physically touch the ground, only that it can be felt. So if the rule book says for example 1/4" thick....why not use 1/4" rope. Meets the rule book as outlined. Nothing says it has to be on the ground.

Interesting point. It's a slow day, so lets take a look.

Here is the definition to ponder...

Glossary

Fault Line . . . . . . . . . .A physical ground reference line in a course of fire

which defines the limit(s) of the shooting area.

2.2.1.1 Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines should be constructed of wooden boards or other suitable material, must be fixed firmly in

place, and provide both physical and visual references to competitors. For hard ground surfaces clear of debris, 0.75 inch

material is the minimum allowable size. On other range surfaces, such as covered with turf, sand, gravel, wood chips or

similar, thicker material which rises at least 1.5 inches above the

surface is recommended.

A raised rope should be fine as a "physical barrier", regardless.

[Doug H.]

What is this "free open" thing?

A few of us on Squad 4 (Me, JJ, and the Spokane Seans) were thinking about doing a chant during the awards and even have some t-shirts made to try and get USPSA Open to be more like outlaw Open, more freedom to inovate hence the "Free Open Now" slogan. They all bugged out on the awards due to it being at the Rivera, so I decided not to chant alone but I wanted to start it here to get some pressure going. If people are interested in the t-shirsts I'd be happy to get something going, PM me and I'll see it there are enough to make an order.

Doug

[P.E. Kelley]

Just out of curiosity....doesn't the rule book say the fault line must be a certain thickness......doesn't say in there that it must physically touch the ground, only that it can be felt. So if the rule book says for example 1/4" thick....why not use 1/4" rope. Meets the rule book as outlined. Nothing says it has to be on the ground.

Interesting point. It's a slow day, so lets take a look.

Here is the definition to ponder...

Glossary

Fault Line . . . . . . . . . .A physical ground reference line in a course of fire

which defines the limit(s) of the shooting area.

2.2.1.1 Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines should be constructed of wooden boards or other suitable material, must be fixed firmly in

place, and provide both physical and visual references to competitors. For hard ground surfaces clear of debris, 0.75 inch

material is the minimum allowable size. On other range surfaces, such as covered with turf, sand, gravel, wood chips or

similar, thicker material which rises at least 1.5 inches above the

surface is recommended.

A raised rope should be fine as a "physical barrier", regardless.

And at about 6 inches off the ground a fine tripping hazard.

Use them wisely Lads.

Patrick

[RiggerJJ]

What is this "free open" thing?

A few of us on Squad 4 (Me, JJ, and the Spokane Seans) were thinking about doing a chant during the awards and even have some t-shirts made to try and get USPSA Open to be more like outlaw Open, more freedom to inovate hence the "Free Open Now" slogan. They all bugged out on the awards due to it being at the Rivera, so I decided not to chant alone but I wanted to start it here to get some pressure going. If people are interested in the t-shirsts I'd be happy to get something going, PM me and I'll see it there are enough to make an order.

Doug

Hey! Don't include me in your s* stirring!

I'll take one of those Tshirts thou, it will be a collector's item when the rule is finally changed oh, say, 8 years from now. (Just an estimate based on past performance)

.jj

[StealthyBlagga]

Just out of curiosity....doesn't the rule book say the fault line must be a certain thickness......doesn't say in there that it must physically touch the ground, only that it can be felt. So if the rule book says for example 1/4" thick....why not use 1/4" rope. Meets the rule book as outlined. Nothing says it has to be on the ground.

Interesting point. It's a slow day, so lets take a look.

Here is the definition to ponder...

Glossary

Fault Line . . . . . . . . . .A physical ground reference line in a course of fire

which defines the limit(s) of the shooting area.

2.2.1.1 Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines should be constructed of wooden boards or other suitable material, must be fixed firmly in

place, and provide both physical and visual references to competitors. For hard ground surfaces clear of debris, 0.75 inch

material is the minimum allowable size. On other range surfaces, such as covered with turf, sand, gravel, wood chips or

similar, thicker material which rises at least 1.5 inches above the

surface is recommended.

A raised rope should be fine as a "physical barrier", regardless.

The problem with raised ropes is that they add a new meaning to the phrase "bending the rules" - folks can really lean out to get hits on targets not intended to be visible from that location. This would mean they are no longer a "physical ground reference". In some cases, this can be a safety concern, in others just a gamesmanship concern. I'm not against them for simply guiding the shooter down a certain path (such as across an open field), but they are not a substitute for nailed down 2x2s where tight shots around props are required.

Now what I can see as being viable is using thick rope (like from the rigging of a 19th century sailing ship) anchored to the ground. I can see this might be faster to install on some longer stages, but would still involve a lot of nailing into hard ground to stop it from moving, so I'm not sure it gains too much.

Edited October 28, 2011 by StealthyBlagga

[Charles Bond]

What is this "free open" thing?

Open division shooters pay no match fees?????

(Oh, that's a terrible rumor to start!)

Actually there is a better thought there than you think. Matches would be better if they appealed to shooters so that the divisions were more evenly divided. IMO there would be nothing wrong with charging less for the less popular divisions and more for tact optics. If you want to save some coin there would be incentives for open, HM or limited.

[Doug H.]

What is this "free open" thing?

Open division shooters pay no match fees?????

(Oh, that's a terrible rumor to start!)

Actually there is a better thought there than you think. Matches would be better if they appealed to shooters so that the divisions were more evenly divided. IMO there would be nothing wrong with charging less for the less popular divisions and more for tact optics. If you want to save some coin there would be incentives for open, HM or limited.

Not a bad idea, improved prizes for the smaller classes could also help.

Doug

FREE OPEN NOW!!!

[Corey]

What is this "free open" thing?

Open division shooters pay no match fees?????

(Oh, that's a terrible rumor to start!)

Actually there is a better thought there than you think. Matches would be better if they appealed to shooters so that the divisions were more evenly divided. IMO there would be nothing wrong with charging less for the less popular divisions and more for tact optics. If you want to save some coin there would be incentives for open, HM or limited.

But that screws the guy who only has enough gear to set himself up for Tac Ops. Why should I have to pay more to shoot the same match based on what type of gun I have?

Now, the prize table is an idea I could live with. Same cost to play but if you want a chance to win the awesome guns, shoot the divisions they are given to.

[D.Hayden]

Matches would be better if they appealed to shooters so that the divisions were more evenly divided. IMO there would be nothing wrong with charging less for the less popular divisions and more for tact optics.

That's simply a terrible idea.

Let's have tac Optics subsidize the other prize tables?

If they want better prizes than the participation warrants.. have them pay more..

Edited October 28, 2011 by D.Hayden

[Bryan 45]

Corey- you wouldn't be paying more. It's just the other guys are paying less.....

As a shooter of the SMALLEST divion, I have trouble understanding how it would benefit the match or the competitors' experience by a match director intentionally steering shooters toward any divison.

[jar]

Actually there is a better thought there than you think. Matches would be better if they appealed to shooters so that the divisions were more evenly divided. IMO there would be nothing wrong with charging less for the less popular divisions and more for tact optics. If you want to save some coin there would be incentives for open, HM or limited.

Why are more evenly divided divisions better? One thing that I like about 3-gun/multigun is that a large percentage of the competitors are all shooting against eachother.

[Chills1994]

At Patrick.... You missed the part in my post about having the rope waist/belly button high to rib height. Pftt... Ankle high... Where did you get that from?

And I never did say wooden fault lines couldn't be used in conjunction either with the rope. Or for that matter more of those blue plastic drums to be used as an actual physical barrier.

My idea for the rope is mainly to be used for long runs. Yeah sure there is gonna be some slop in the rope. I reckon the first time a shooter presses the rope so hard to get a yard or two closer to say a steel target... If anything bounces back and hits them... Well, it's a self correcting problem.

I'd have to look through the rules, but I could swear the onus was strictly on the shooter to know he was X yards away from a steel target regardless of fault line or not.

[Chills1994]

Now for a dumb...dumb... Question are any other matches allowing Saiga's/Akdal's in divisions other than open?

[lynn jones]

Now for a dumb...dumb... Question are any other matches allowing Saiga's/Akdal's in divisions other than open?

only open

[Stlhead]

Open or trooper only in recent past, although there was a magazine fed tactical class at the R&R matches of yesteryear.

[Chills1994]

Ya'll see where I am going with that line of questioning, dontchya?

[Blockhead]

Now for a dumb...dumb... Question are any other matches allowing Saiga's/Akdal's in divisions other than open?

I remember seeing iron sighted Saigas with 8 round mag.s at FB3G in 2009 & 2010 (RO'd SG stages both years). Can't remember what division they were shooting though (Like Larry, I can barely remember breakfast).

[Jesse Tischauser]

I had a couple more questions about my observations at my first Multi Gun Nationals...

Why were there so many home made sponsor banners? Did the sponsors not send their own or is making a banner or three part of the sponsor package?

Why did some of the stages that contained a shotgun require a dedicated RO to oversee the shotguns that were alreaded preloaded? It seemed a bit over the top since every other match that I've been to has the shooters preload together then everybody knows not to go touch the shotguns no more unless under direct supervising. It's bit like the guns are actually hot either. They just have a tube full with empty chamber and safety on. Just curious if it's a liability thing or what?

[RiggerJJ]

Don't get me started...

OOooooppps too late!

The homemade banners are results from the RULE BOOK that uspsa has regarding sponsors... I found it once on their website, check it out if you want some comedic reading...yes, there is an ENTIRE rule book dedicated to sponsoring the nationals.

The shotgun thing, yep, thats in the rules (multigun addendum I think) regarding pre-loading; having a dedicated RO stand there and guard the shotguns. More cost, more, more, more...

The funny part of the whole pre-load thing to me is;

A chamber flag is required in a long gun when it is out of a case, indicating the gun is UN-loaded. You take the flagged, un-loaded shotgun to the pre-load table. Load the tube (under supervision), and then REPLACE the flag (that previously indicated that the gun was UN-loaded) into a LOADED shotgun. Anyone else see the contradiction that I do?

jj

[P.E. Kelley]

At Patrick.... You missed the part in my post about having the rope waist/belly button high to rib height. Pftt... Ankle high... Where did you get that from?

And I never did say wooden fault lines couldn't be used in conjunction either with the rope. Or for that matter more of those blue plastic drums to be used as an actual physical barrier.

My idea for the rope is mainly to be used for long runs. Yeah sure there is gonna be some slop in the rope. I reckon the first time a shooter presses the rope so hard to get a yard or two closer to say a steel target... If anything bounces back and hits them... Well, it's a self correcting problem.

I'd have to look through the rules, but I could swear the onus was strictly on the shooter to know he was X yards away from a steel target regardless of fault line or not.

For the record I did not your miss your post. And as to where I got the ankle height rope from??? I have witnesses that set-up at matches!

I just wanted others who might be inclined to use ropes as fault lines to use them wisely. (just like you do)

Patrick

[Religious Shooter]

Earlier in this thread it was brought up that Horner won by a huge margin in 2010 because he was shooting major rifle. I said that he won by a large margin because Taran wasn't shooting in Tactical.

Place Name USPSA Comp # Class PF Lady Mil Law Age Match Pts Match %

1 Daniel Horner A48668 86 M Major 2278.6299 100.00%

2 Taran Butler L2354 209 GM Major 2232.8133 97.99%

3 Tyler Payne A63708 146 A Major 2037.9829 89.44%

4 Rob Romero TY54465 158 M Major 1971.2779 86.51%

If you take away Taran's score, Horner won by 10.56%.

I read that Horner shot minor rifle this year.

So, at least at the top, major rifle scoring does not make a big difference.

[MustangGreg66]

Seems the conversation is still going strong.

Here's a match video I put together of my POV footage. I can really see the little mistakes that added up on each stage, but you can see all the fun as well

Edited October 29, 2011 by MustangGreg66

[chendersby]

Don't get me started...

OOooooppps too late!

The homemade banners are results from the RULE BOOK that uspsa has regarding sponsors... I found it once on their website, check it out if you want some comedic reading...yes, there is an ENTIRE rule book dedicated to sponsoring the nationals.

The shotgun thing, yep, thats in the rules (multigun addendum I think) regarding pre-loading; having a dedicated RO stand there and guard the shotguns. More cost, more, more, more...

The funny part of the whole pre-load thing to me is;

A chamber flag is required in a long gun when it is out of a case, indicating the gun is UN-loaded. You take the flagged, un-loaded shotgun to the pre-load table. Load the tube (under supervision), and then REPLACE the flag (that previously indicated that the gun was UN-loaded) into a LOADED shotgun. Anyone else see the contradiction that I do?

jj

Come on now JJ, I know you take great pride in running a great match with minimal rules but we are running a national organization. The "Rule Book" you refer to is the policies that we use with reguard to sponsors. That's right we have the audacity to actually have written policies for most all the things the organization does.

Now as to an RO being required to guard preloaded shotguns. That is done by the RO's themselves as the only requirement for the RO's in the rules is that one is there when everyone is preloading. Apparently some RO's are not comfortable with a table of unattended preloaded shotguns.

[smokshwn]

Don't get me started...

OOooooppps too late!

The homemade banners are results from the RULE BOOK that uspsa has regarding sponsors... I found it once on their website, check it out if you want some comedic reading...yes, there is an ENTIRE rule book dedicated to sponsoring the nationals.

The shotgun thing, yep, thats in the rules (multigun addendum I think) regarding pre-loading; having a dedicated RO stand there and guard the shotguns. More cost, more, more, more...

The funny part of the whole pre-load thing to me is;

A chamber flag is required in a long gun when it is out of a case, indicating the gun is UN-loaded. You take the flagged, un-loaded shotgun to the pre-load table. Load the tube (under supervision), and then REPLACE the flag (that previously indicated that the gun was UN-loaded) into a LOADED shotgun. Anyone else see the contradiction that I do?

jj

Come on now JJ, I know you take great pride in running a great match with minimal rules but we are running a national organization. The "Rule Book" you refer to is the policies that we use with reguard to sponsors. That's right we have the audacity to actually have written policies for most all the things the organization does.

Now as to an RO being required to guard preloaded shotguns. That is done by the RO's themselves as the only requirement for the RO's in the rules is that one is there when everyone is preloading. Apparently some RO's are not comfortable with a table of unattended preloaded shotguns.

JJ,

Which rule at Ozark got you and Pat the reshoot on stage 7.....wasn't it a USPSA rule?

[Benelli Chick]

Don't get me started...

OOooooppps too late!

The homemade banners are results from the RULE BOOK that uspsa has regarding sponsors... I found it once on their website, check it out if you want some comedic reading...yes, there is an ENTIRE rule book dedicated to sponsoring the nationals.

The shotgun thing, yep, thats in the rules (multigun addendum I think) regarding pre-loading; having a dedicated RO stand there and guard the shotguns. More cost, more, more, more...

The funny part of the whole pre-load thing to me is;

A chamber flag is required in a long gun when it is out of a case, indicating the gun is UN-loaded. You take the flagged, un-loaded shotgun to the pre-load table. Load the tube (under supervision), and then REPLACE the flag (that previously indicated that the gun was UN-loaded) into a LOADED shotgun. Anyone else see the contradiction that I do?

jj

Come on now JJ, I know you take great pride in running a great match with minimal rules but we are running a national organization. The "Rule Book" you refer to is the policies that we use with reguard to sponsors. That's right we have the audacity to actually have written policies for most all the things the organization does.

Now as to an RO being required to guard preloaded shotguns. That is done by the RO's themselves as the only requirement for the RO's in the rules is that one is there when everyone is preloading. Apparently some RO's are not comfortable with a table of unattended preloaded shotguns.

JJ,

Which rule at Ozark got you and Pat the reshoot on stage 7.....wasn't it a USPSA rule?

I'll answer that. I don't think it was a USPSA rule particularly. The target was broken. It was turned sideways and for all sakes and purposes, it wasn't hardly there. JJ finally hit it while it was sideways and you could see it go down to the side instead of back and then it stayed down...so...every match I know of lets you reshoot if the target is broken or not hitable, unless they say "it's a hit, go on". But, nobody could do that with that little wee autopopper sideways. I suppose it could fall under range failure for USPSA, but nobody knew the target was sideways until JJ finished breaking it and it didn't fall backwards. If he hadn't been shooting a .308, nobody might ever have known. But, those little sneaky poppers are skinny enough without being sideways to the shooter! Who knows how many of us shot it while it was sideways. JJ only took the reshoot because he was the one that broke the target. He would've been better off with his first run. If it had been USPSA, he would've HAD to take the reshoot, but as it was, he was given the option and he thought it was the right thing to do since he complained about the target for the previous shooters and then broke it the rest of the way himself! He hit the popper much faster the second time, but he had trouble with his pistol...Oh well!

Denise