2011 USPSA MultiGun Nationals

[P.E. Kelley]

Here they are:

Results

Thank you sir!

Congratulations to my local buds, Carl Carbon on 8th Tactical and Warren Becker for a 5th Limited. way to go guys!

Thank you to my good friend Kurt Miller for grabbing the National Title in Limited using IRONS!!!

Well done on a very strong 2nd place Limited finish to my friend James Casanova for really putting the pressure on!

Jesse! Damn-sam! You are really getting your poop in a group! Truly a man to be reckoned with!

Patrick

[Religious Shooter]

Two DQ's in my squad. Nothing uncalled for or from a problem prop.

One of them went to a wall and as them came out they didn't tuck in the rifle. Barrel hit the wall and unfortunately the impact caused him to break the vertical 180.

Other one was a port-arms start. Unfortunately the guy just turned left without pointing the gun downrange. Again the vertical 180 was broken.

I think those half barrels are problems. I would have preferred them to have been full.

Anyways... Great match!!! Very challenging.

Unfortunately talk is the match will be in May next year. Don't know if I want to intentionally shoot a major in 100+ degree wether.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I heard there was one top 10-20 guy that was DQ's for burning shotgun rounds without actually aiming the gun at a target or having it off the shoulder. I also "heard" that the Tactical match winner was DQ'd for the same thing then reinstated after further review. I also heard about a DQ for taking off a CR Speed/Safariland belt rig and setting it in the back of the truck/car with the pistol still sitting in the holster. Something I saw a lot of. These are ramge rumors do take them for what there worth.

I will say that There is definitely a difference between outlaw and USPSA rules, RO's and how the two interact. Some things are good some things could be different at times.

All in all I thought the match was a lot of fun. There was hoser targets for every gun and super hard targets for every gun. The stats being emailed out every night was AWESOME!!! Every RO/ scorekeeper in the match knew what was going on and ran their stages/scoring efficiently.

The biggest problem I saw was the plethora of swingers, movers, drop turners, flippers, flyers, etc causes way too many reshoots. It sucks to eliminate the carnival targets but if they slow the flow they gotta go!

Huge thanks to all the staff, RO's, and sponsors. I had heard less than stellar things about Nationals in the past but now that I have shot it I am planning my return.

[ScottW]

22 DQ's out of 188 competitors is an 11.7% DQ rate. That would be like having 92 DQ's at Handgun Nationals which had 787 Competitors. Will be interesting to hear comments from attendees as to what the problem seemed to be.

Edited October 24, 2011 by ScottW

[Religious Shooter]

While not in a safe area, taking off the gunbelt with a gun still in the holster is a definite DQ in USPSA.

You also can't bag/unbag your long guns at the car.

IMHO it's lame, but it's the rule. When in Rome, do as what the Romans do.

[Chills1994]

some levity, I hope:

Edited October 24, 2011 by Chills1994

[gose]

I'm also very curious about the high DQ rate. I'm seeing some very well known and experienced 3-gunners among them. Was there something in common, like a stage that perhaps was pushing the 180?

In our squad we had one breaking the 180 when grounding and one because the weapon was grounded outside of the barrel. Both pretty clear.

[gose]

Huge thanks to all the staff, RO's, and sponsors. I had heard less than stellar things about Nationals in the past but now that I have shot it I am planning my return.

+1 on that!

The biggest problem I saw was the plethora of swingers, movers, drop turners, flippers, flyers, etc causes way too many reshoots. It sucks to eliminate the carnival targets but if they slow the flow they gotta go!

In many cases the reshoots are the result of the props being reset improperly. The ROs should double-check that props are reset properly and make sure that the shooters know how to reset them (it might not be obvious to everyone)

In our squad I think we had a total of 5 reshoots; one DQ that was reinstated, one malfunctioning LaRue and two improperly reset props and one for unpatched targets. That doesnt seem too alarming to me, but maybe we were lucky and got to the "bad" props after they were fixed.

[Charles Bond]

22 DQ's out of 188 competitors is an 11.7% DQ rate. That would be like having 92 DQ's at Handgun Nationals which had 787 Competitors. Will be interesting to hear comments from attendees as to what the problem seemed to be.

That is an very soft comment. I was not there but that rate of DQ is over twice what it should be.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Charles Bond

[RaymondMillbrae]

Hey, shooters...

based on all the "rumored reasons" for DQ's (as of this posting), they are all correct.

I was one of the RO's at the match, and can attest to the latter. There were multiple reasons for shooter DQ's.

Some were because of the high-level of the match, and everyone was running at Warp-12 speed. Some were because the heat wore them down a smidgen and made them get a bit careless/sloppy. And some were made by just silly mistakes from both new and experienced shooters alike.

Overall it was a fantastic match, and the stage set-up's were excellent.

The turn-out was exceptional (over 200 shooters), the weather was great...and they had around 26 firearms on the prize tables!.

The caliber of shooters was awe inspiring, and the squads were also great. I cannot remember one squad that did not tape, set-up, or paint their stages.

I agree with the comment above, in regards to equipment failures, and the dump barrels not being quite deep enough.

The equipment issues could not be helped. Great minds got together and tried to weed-out every possible equipment failures before they could happen. But alas, they still snuck by us. And when you have over 200 shooters peppering stage props...well...you can never foresee what will ultimately hold up...and what won't. (Especially with those monster .308 rounds, or the heavy-handed shooters).

As for the barrels, I also have to agree with y'all. They were padded to prevent damage of components if they were slammed into the barrels, as well as preventing them from bouncing back out enough to fall out. But in my opinion, a smidgen too much. Some of the longer long-guns were "butt heavy". And because they did not go into the barrels as deep as some expected, some shooters slowed-down in order to "make sure" the long-gun did not tumble out of the barrels. But then again, it was still a level playing field, as nothing was changed or modified, and everyone shot the exact same stage.

All in all, it was a fantastic match. We heard nothing but great things from the shooters. (Unless things were not going according to their plans). The RO's busted their (our) butts to keep y'all on schedule, and sometimes even missed their lunches. (Our stage was never on time, and we had to eat lunch on the stage when we could).

I cannot speak for anyone else, but my days consisted of a 0515 hour wake-up, breakfast, straight to the range at 0645 hours, running the match, returning back to the hotel at 1830 hours, eating dinner, and then in bed by 1000 hours every night. Then the rat-race started all over again the next day.

The weather was nice, and I ran around a lot during the match. But then again, I'm in pretty good shape, and run 6 to 8 miles per week. Being out in the sun was the hardest part. Not that it was overly hot. But not being able to get out of it kinda wore me down a bit. I also noticed that towards the end of long days, some of the shooters were also sapped of energy from the sun.

In closing, it was a great match. I enjoyed seeing new, and familiar, faces.

Lord willing, I will see y'all again next year. Maybe not as an RO, but as a competitor. Hmmm...but then again...maybe as an RO again. *smiles*

In Christ: Raymond

Edited October 24, 2011 by RaymondMillbrae

[Jesse Tischauser]

While not in a safe area, taking off the gunbelt with a gun still in the holster is a definite DQ in USPSA.

You also can't bag/unbag your long guns at the car.

These two rules should have gotten our entire squad DQ'd.

[RiggerJJ]

Two things I saw wrong with the barrels was the over use of carpet lining them, and where they were place on the stage. They were standard 35 gallon Rubbermaid, but I could see the possible problem of the front sight or something else on the gun getting caught on the carpet, and if the shooter wasn't being careful the worse could easily happen. Also overrunning the dump barrel AND the pickup barrel was a problem.

Stage design (barrel location) would have greatly reduced the number of DQs for barrel assiociated reasons. Giving the shooter something to do at the dump barrel with that gun AND give them something to do with the new gun at the pickup barrel (and pointing the pickup barrel downrange instead of crossrange) would have helped a lot instead of just running by at a top speed and trying to abandon or pickup a gun in flight...

And get rid of the flippin carpet! It causes more problems...when have you seen a plastic barrel damage or scratch a gun? Push an old cardboard target into the bottom and replace as necessary.

S.S.S.

.jj

Edited October 24, 2011 by RiggerJJ

[Charles Bond]

While not in a safe area, taking off the gunbelt with a gun still in the holster is a definite DQ in USPSA.

You also can't bag/unbag your long guns at the car.

These two rules should have gotten our entire squad DQ'd.

The BOD talked about this shortly before I left. IMO if an unloaded gun is in a holster it is safe and if it is in a bag it is safe and that is true whether it is on a belt on a shooter or otherwise. Three gun is a different animal. Constanting running to the safe area to bag and unbag weapons is only going to work if you have an ample safe area at each and every stage. I have never seen anyone bag and unbag a rifle or shotgun inside a safe area.

[Truegent2004]

First....a big thanks to all the match staff and sponsors. You work is truly appreciated.

It was also good to seem some old familiar faces on at the match. The weather was great and having Red Rock in the background makes this range one of the most scenic in the country. The stages were fun and not too tricky. I agree with JT on the "carnival targets" and step activators....too much hassle comapared to the fun factor.

I don't know how many seconds I volunatary gave up just to be overly cautious on speed(or lack of) unloading and long gun dumping but obviously it was worth it since I was able to finish the match. I met some nice people on Squad 15, and it was sad to see 3 of them Dq'd, but if you're going to be booted early you might as well be in Vegas!!!! I gave a fellow squad member my left over shotshells at the end of the match (Enjoy them Henrik) since I was worried my bag would be over the airline weight limit. The bag did come in at one half pound under the limit...woo hoo. It would be great for any of my new or old friends to stay in touch with me via messenger on here.

It was a learning experience as always and a nice way to wrap up 2011 for me.

Until we meet again....

[chendersby]

While not in a safe area, taking off the gunbelt with a gun still in the holster is a definite DQ in USPSA.

You also can't bag/unbag your long guns at the car.

These two rules should have gotten our entire squad DQ'd.

The BOD talked about this shortly before I left. IMO if an unloaded gun is in a holster it is safe and if it is in a bag it is safe and that is true whether it is on a belt on a shooter or otherwise. Three gun is a different animal. Constanting running to the safe area to bag and unbag weapons is only going to work if you have an ample safe area at each and every stage. I have never seen anyone bag and unbag a rifle or shotgun inside a safe area.

You can unbag anywhere as long as there is a chamber flag. If you are at the staging area you only need an open bolt. The pistol in a holster removed is a no no.

[Jesse Tischauser]

It appears as they they used the Limited classification to determine class winners. I thought it was the highest classification of all divisions?

[Doug H.]

It appears as they they used the Limited classification to determine class winners. I thought it was the highest classification of all divisions?

There are only 2 classifications that apply in Multigun, Limited and Open.

Doug

[Chuck Anderson]

I heard there was one top 10-20 guy that was DQ's for burning shotgun rounds without actually aiming the gun at a target or having it off the shoulder. I also "heard" that the Tactical match winner was DQ'd for the same thing then reinstated after further review. I also heard about a DQ for taking off a CR Speed/Safariland belt rig and setting it in the back of the truck/car with the pistol still sitting in the holster. Something I saw a lot of. These are ramge rumors do take them for what there worth.

I was on the stage when Daniel (if you're going to say Tactical Match Winner you might as well use his name because we can all figure it out) burned the SG round. He had the gun off the shoulder and gun sideways when he fired. RO stopped him. Daniel said to the CRO, and he told me a few minutes later, that he knew he had a round left, saw there was a partial clay left and burned the round at it to make sure. RO didn't know what he was seeing and stopped him. Upon later review, it really wasn't a DQ (he was never DQ'd, just stopped). The first shooter you're talking about I just missed doing it, but I talked to several of the guys on his squad about it right after it happened. He just finished a load and fired the round. Might have been burning the last round of shot to get to the slug, but I doubt it. He stopped himself, not the RO. If it was intentional I'm pretty sure he'd have kept going.

I saw one other DQ, left handed shooter who was reloading left to right on a stage. RO yelled "Muzzle!" at him three times before stopping him. I talked to another shooter who, on his third reshoot on a stage DQ'd. He dumped his shotgun in the barrel and the charging handle caught on the edge flipping the gun out. Another was drawing his handgun, bobbled the draw, and was trying to stuff his shotgun in the barrel at the same time. Too many things at one time and the gun didn't make it all the way into the barrel before falling out. Talked to another shooter who got distracted by someone else during the ULSC and didn't fully eject the chambered round and fired it when the hammer dropped. I really didn't see any one thing that contributed to the most DQ's. They seemed to be spread out among the stages. Could have been the heat and long days, could have been the technical nature of some of the stages, could have been people going to fast and pushing beyond their capabilities. I do really like JJ's comment about the placement of the dump and staging boxes. I hadn't really thought about it, but there were definitely several points where you were grounding something then immediately transitioning either to a staged gun or drawing the pistol. A little more space would have been beneficial.

That said, I really hope USPSA does not do a 12 stage Nationals again. Back when we used to do short little stages, no big deal. Now we're trying to stuff 12 IMGA size stages into a 2 1/2 day time frame. The same time frame that most IMGA matches fill with 9 stages. Add in hit factor scoring which takes longer to score, some targets that required a long walk to reset and the RO's, and most of the shooters were out on the range from sun up to sun down, and after. I know I was leaving the range on Friday and there was still a squad shooting, dang near in the dark (it was full dark 10 minutes after I left). Not fair, not safe. This match ran right to the very wire with trying to cram everything in.

As far as the reshoots go, we followed the squad with what I have to believe was the most reshoots of any match I've been to. They said it was over 30 for the squad, and I believe it. Several of their guys turned this into an 18-20 stage match. Some prop malfunctions, some reset failures, one stage that was changed after they shot it. Just bad luck all around. We followed them around the whole weekend and I think we had maybe 5 reshoots our whole squad and I think that's high.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I heard there was one top 10-20 guy that was DQ's for burning shotgun rounds without actually aiming the gun at a target or having it off the shoulder. I also "heard" that the Tactical match winner was DQ'd for the same thing then reinstated after further review. I also heard about a DQ for taking off a CR Speed/Safariland belt rig and setting it in the back of the truck/car with the pistol still sitting in the holster. Something I saw a lot of. These are ramge rumors do take them for what there worth.

I was on the stage when Daniel (if you're going to say Tactical Match Winner you might as well use his name because we can all figure it out) burned the SG round. He had the gun off the shoulder and gun sideways when he fired. RO stopped him. Daniel said to the CRO, and he told me a few minutes later, that he knew he had a round left, saw there was a partial clay left and burned the round at it to make sure. RO didn't know what he was seeing and stopped him. Upon later review, it really wasn't a DQ (he was never DQ'd, just stopped). The first shooter you're talking about I just missed doing it, but I talked to several of the guys on his squad about it right after it happened. He just finished a load and fired the round. Might have been burning the last round of shot to get to the slug, but I doubt it. He stopped himself, not the RO. If it was intentional I'm pretty sure he'd have kept going.

I saw one other DQ, left handed shooter who was reloading left to right on a stage. RO yelled "Muzzle!" at him three times before stopping him. I talked to another shooter who, on his third reshoot on a stage DQ'd. He dumped his shotgun in the barrel and the charging handle caught on the edge flipping the gun out. Another was drawing his handgun, bobbled the draw, and was trying to stuff his shotgun in the barrel at the same time. Too many things at one time and the gun didn't make it all the way into the barrel before falling out. Talked to another shooter who got distracted by someone else during the ULSC and didn't fully eject the chambered round and fired it when the hammer dropped. I really didn't see any one thing that contributed to the most DQ's. They seemed to be spread out among the stages. Could have been the heat and long days, could have been the technical nature of some of the stages, could have been people going to fast and pushing beyond their capabilities. I do really like JJ's comment about the placement of the dump and staging boxes. I hadn't really thought about it, but there were definitely several points where you were grounding something then immediately transitioning either to a staged gun or drawing the pistol. A little more space would have been beneficial.

That said, I really hope USPSA does not do a 12 stage Nationals again. Back when we used to do short little stages, no big deal. Now we're trying to stuff 12 IMGA size stages into a 2 1/2 day time frame. The same time frame that most IMGA matches fill with 9 stages. Add in hit factor scoring which takes longer to score, some targets that required a long walk to reset and the RO's, and most of the shooters were out on the range from sun up to sun down, and after. I know I was leaving the range on Friday and there was still a squad shooting, dang near in the dark (it was full dark 10 minutes after I left). Not fair, not safe. This match ran right to the very wire with trying to cram everything in.

As far as the reshoots go, we followed the squad with what I have to believe was the most reshoots of any match I've been to. They said it was over 30 for the squad, and I believe it. Several of their guys turned this into an 18-20 stage match. Some prop malfunctions, some reset failures, one stage that was changed after they shot it. Just bad luck all around. We followed them around the whole weekend and I think we had maybe 5 reshoots our whole squad and I think that's high.

So is it illegal to shoot your shotgun dry if it isn't at a target?

And Daniel shooting a clay chip with the gun off HiS shoulder? Come on man! Daniel never shoots twice at anything much less a clay chip.

I would rather see the 12 stages stay and the hit facturd scoring go.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[Jesse Tischauser]

It appears as they they used the Limited classification to determine class winners. I thought it was the highest classification of all divisions?

There are only 2 classifications that apply in Multigun, Limited and Open.

Doug

So if you're from a Limited 10 state and only shoot L10 and make your GM you go to nationals and shoot Multi gun as unclassified?

[Chuck Anderson]

So is it illegal to shoot your shotgun dry if it isn't at a target?

And Daniel shooting a clay chip with the gun off HiS shoulder? Come on man! Daniel never shoots twice at anything much less a clay chip.

I would rather see the 12 stages stay and the hit facturd scoring go.

t

Not illegal, just needs to be in a safe direction. You can shoot as many extra rounds as you want.

12 stages, even with Time Plus its still going to be a pain unless something dramatically changes, as in shorter stages. We beat the crap out of the RO's at this match. We were short to begin with, and I doubt the long days at this match are going to help draw more staff for next year.

[gose]

12 stages, even with Time Plus its still going to be a pain unless something dramatically changes, as in shorter stages. We beat the crap out of the RO's at this match. We were short to begin with, and I doubt the long days at this match are going to help draw more staff for next year.

Maybe if the ROs were allowed to shoot the match in a pre-match they would be easier to attract?

Edited October 24, 2011 by gose

[Chuck Anderson]

I know I'd be a lot more likely to work the match if they let me shoot it ahead of time. From what I've been told, some from the higher ups, and some from Nationals staff. They used to let the RO's shoot the match, including the three gun. But they had them shoot it in one day. Too many of them didn't think it was worth the hassle to haul all their stuff down, shoot one day, then either leave it all in the hotel room or schlep it back and forth. And on top of that, with 12 stages in one day, most shot poorly anyway. Granted, this is coming from current match staff. Doesn't really answer whether allowing RO's a day or two to shoot now would gain us new blood to staff the match. It would increase the cost of the match. This is definitely not a profit making adventure for USPSA. Bringing everyone in a couple days earlier to set up and shoot the match is going to increase cost. I'd easily pay more for this to occur. Certainly worth some extra coin to help out the RO's, but how many feel the same way?

[Doug H.]

It appears as they they used the Limited classification to determine class winners. I thought it was the highest classification of all divisions?

There are only 2 classifications that apply in Multigun, Limited and Open.

Doug

So if you're from a Limited 10 state and only shoot L10 and make your GM you go to nationals and shoot Multi gun as unclassified?

Looks like from the MG rules, Limited 10 would only be used if you were shooting one of the Heavy Metal divisions otherwise as I stated above. You would need to check with Linda to be sure, but I bet she has done this enough times to know.

[Religious Shooter]

I think the 12 stages were manageable.

All the reshoots is what made for a long day.

We should be able to just take a shot towards a fallen clay, broken clay thrown up, missing steel, etc. and calling it good. Just like all the other major 3 gun and local matches.