15 round magazines in Production

[Maksim]

Just call it the JMB division.

[ChuckS]

Or, change single stack to the Browning division. 8+1 1911's vs. 13+1 BHP's. Just like in the old days. I'd sign up for that one in a second.

It would have to be called the "Browning and Saive" division

[glefos]

1st person opinion:

I shoot Production. I enjoy it being scored all minor (advantage to me with 9mm). I also enjoy the strategy of 10rds.

That being said, the 10rd rule seems ridiculous. Why not 9rds or 6rds or 11rds? Why the arbitrary 10rds? Can that be answered without bringing politics and the assualt weapons ban into the discussion? My opinion; It is Production. Shoot it the way it came from the factory. If it holds 17, load 17. If it holds 15, load 15. If it holds 19, load 19.

Also, why only scored minor? The rest of the sport scores major and minor. Scoring systems and all matches already take into account major and minor. It's Production; shoot what you have, score what you have, load what you have.

SP01? Load 19, score minor

G22? Load 15, score major

Being a SP01 shooter I might not like the 9mm disadvantage, but I understand it would be fair. The guys that have the .45 Glocks and the .40 M&Ps in their nightstand could come out and play knowing USPSA drinks their own koolaid. DVC. Accuracy, Speed, Power. Three legged stool. It's all a trade off. Capacity, scoring, speed. All divisions.

Keep in mind. I got an SP01 specifically because I believe it has a competitive advantage agaisnt other options in the division. I would like to see the changes even though I feel I will lose some of my competitive advantage.

[Corey]

by making production a 'run what ya brung" division as your suggesting, new shooters will feel the need to go buy more expensive guns that can hold more rounds. no one wants to compete with a 13 rd gun when someone else can shoot 19.

or if you want to load to full capacity and get the benefit of Major/minor....i swear there is a division for that ahhh, now i remember .....Limited

Edited October 28, 2010 by Corey

[bbbean]

1st person opinion:

I shoot Production. I enjoy it being scored all minor (advantage to me with 9mm). I also enjoy the strategy of 10rds.

OK. So far, so good.

That being said, the 10rd rule seems ridiculous. Why not 9rds or 6rds or 11rds? Why the arbitrary 10rds? Can that be answered without bringing politics and the assualt weapons ban into the discussion?

Does it need to be? The fact of the matter is several large states still have a 10 round restriction, many states have a 10 round restriction for hunting with handguns, and the AWB impacted the market enough to create the broad availability of 10 rd mags. There are a number of carry guns that have a 10 round capacity.

My opinion; It is Production. Shoot it the way it came from the factory. If it holds 17, load 17. If it holds 15, load 15. If it holds 19, load 19.

Also, why only scored minor? The rest of the sport scores major and minor. Scoring systems and all matches already take into account major and minor. It's Production; shoot what you have, score what you have, load what you have.

How would this differ from Limited?

[mgood]

How would this differ from Limited?

Fits in the box, makes weight, on the Approved list.

Yeah, it would be sort of a mini-Limited division. That might be kinda cool, and it's what I wanted before I read all this.

But the overlap with Limited and Limited 10 would make people wonder why we need such a division. And that brings me back around the circle to thinking maybe we should leave it as is.

[beltjones]

How would this differ from Limited?

Fits in the box, makes weight, on the Approved list.

Yeah, it would be sort of a mini-Limited division. That might be kinda cool, and it's what I wanted before I read all this.

But the overlap with Limited and Limited 10 would make people wonder why we need such a division. And that brings me back around the circle to thinking maybe we should leave it as is.

That's sort of how IPSC Production started out (minus the major scoring), but those rules (in my opinion only) were a disaster.

[MarkCO]

I don't shoot production, don't want to at all. HOWEVER, I think it should remain as is for many of the reasons stated within this thread. And making it all minor, also good. In trying to get new people to try USPSA shooting, whether they come from some other form of competition, or are brand new, Production holds great appeal. Their overall scores in the division end up being better than if they tried the sport against better equipment with their 15 round 9mm in Limited or Open. Most don't have to spend any money to try it out. I beleive the best thing about Production is the removal of the barriers to new shooters, especially given the economy. Single stack has some of the same appeal, but at a higher price tag.

Now, why we should get rid of Limited 10 might be a better thread topic.

[Jman]

Minor sucks...

...sorry

Jim

[DyNo!]

Now, why we should get rid of Limited 10 might be a better thread topic.

Yup...

[GForceLizard]

1st person opinion:

I shoot Production. I enjoy it being scored all minor (advantage to me with 9mm). I also enjoy the strategy of 10rds.

That being said, the 10rd rule seems ridiculous. Why not 9rds or 6rds or 11rds? Why the arbitrary 10rds? Can that be answered without bringing politics and the assualt weapons ban into the discussion? My opinion; It is Production. Shoot it the way it came from the factory. If it holds 17, load 17. If it holds 15, load 15. If it holds 19, load 19.

Also, why only scored minor? The rest of the sport scores major and minor. Scoring systems and all matches already take into account major and minor. It's Production; shoot what you have, score what you have, load what you have.

SP01? Load 19, score minor

G22? Load 15, score major

Being a SP01 shooter I might not like the 9mm disadvantage, but I understand it would be fair. The guys that have the .45 Glocks and the .40 M&Ps in their nightstand could come out and play knowing USPSA drinks their own koolaid. DVC. Accuracy, Speed, Power. Three legged stool. It's all a trade off. Capacity, scoring, speed. All divisions.

Keep in mind. I got an SP01 specifically because I believe it has a competitive advantage agaisnt other options in the division. I would like to see the changes even though I feel I will lose some of my competitive advantage.

Much of the point of Production is to minimize the impact of equipment. The 10 round rule, most guns will hold 10 rounds. Minor scoring for everyone, it's pointed out again and again that major scoring is an advantage. The advantage of major scoring is removed so people don't have to upgrade their 9mm to a 40S&W. This gives us a home for everyone with a 9mm that refuse to compete in the other divisions because of minor scoring.

[aztecdriver]

I've said this before, but maybe not here. Production might be the division a lot of newer shooters start out in, but for the brand spanking newbie - I don't see it being the one they should learn in. Basically every fresh to competition new person I meet I start out with the "Unless you experienced shooting on the move or have previous movement based competition experience, I highly recommend you shoot in limited, load your mags up and DON'T think about being competitive tonight." They've already got enough to worry about with keeping their finger out of the trigger guard and trying to comprehend the concept of "sweeping" (and yes, I'm dead serious). The last thing they need to try and understand the first night is equipment positioning, scoring, hit factors, major/minor pf and how to do 3 mag changes while moving (did I mention the finger in the trigger guard -- let's complicate that all the more). The last thing I want them doing is seeing our 16-yr-old A production guy burn it down and try to do that with the "well, hell, he's a kid, if he can do it like that I can". The only thing they are there to do at that point is to get some experience and be safe. After they get comfortable they can learn about the divisions and figure out what they want to do in competition.

Aside from Single Stack, Production is the most technically challenging division, I believe, that we have. You have to be accurate with less than perfect triggers, you have to be technically proficient to break down stages effectively, and you have to be extremely efficient in your movements to do "all those" reloads, without a magwell in order to compete at a high level. That being said it IS the most cost effective division to be NOT at a competitive disadvantage because of equipment. I enjoy shooting it because of the above. I also USE it to make me better, BECAUSE of the above.

Proponents of 15 rnd mags want to change the challenge that production represents, and one has to ask why? Leave the equipment, the "entry level" argument, AWB and state anti-gun laws out of it for now. Is it because we want to do more shooting and less reloads? We have limited for that. Is it because you want to go faster? Heck, we have open for that, but limited will suffice for iron sights. Is it because you want to have limited type division without major/minor scoring? Well, there is a gap there, but is it worth destroying a challenge to an existing division? How about you don't want to buy a $2000 STI to be competitive with in limited. You don't have to - a Glock in the hands of someone trained to shoot it will run just as well - ask Dave S. or even a couple other members of this board I shoot with on a regular basis. I'm not sure if he made Master with a Glock but he sure shoots like one with it. (yes, in limited)

So to me, the argument seems to be I want 15 rounds in production so production will be easier. Let me quote Tom Hanks from a very girly movie, "It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great."

ETA - Before someone thinks I'm saying limited is not challenging - that's not my point - limited has it's challenges too - but they are more tied to pure speed than the technical aspects (reloading, manipulation and stage breakdown).

Edited October 28, 2010 by aztecdriver

[G-ManBart]

I have already commented extensively on the matter within this thread. I would only be repeating myself by commenting further. As a new USPSA member, I was simply sharing my own thoughts and experiences.

The only thing I've seen you mention is that some prospective new members won't join because they'd likely need two or three more mags, and an extra double mag pouch. Sure, that might hold back a few people.

On the flip side, there are lots of people with 12-13 round guns that would need to buy a new gun, plus extra mags and pouches.

By sheer numbers, your idea would keep more folks out of the sport. Most folks can pull together $100-150 for three mags and a double pouch. A lot of people probably can't come up with $4-700 for a new gun, even if they don't have to buy as many extra mags or pouches.

There are also current members that would need to buy a new gun to stay on a level playing field, and some of them will quit. How do I know that? When the high capacity guns showed up in the early 90s, I had to quit, because I was a poor 2nd Lt on active duty who simply couldn't afford a new gun, much less mags, etc for it. It took me years before I was able to afford coming back to the sport. I would hate to see us push folks away like that again. R,

[d_striker]

I have already commented extensively on the matter within this thread. I would only be repeating myself by commenting further. As a new USPSA member, I was simply sharing my own thoughts and experiences.

The only thing I've seen you mention is that some prospective new members won't join because they'd likely need two or three more mags, and an extra double mag pouch. Sure, that might hold back a few people.

On the flip side, there are lots of people with 12-13 round guns that would need to buy a new gun, plus extra mags and pouches.

By sheer numbers, your idea would keep more folks out of the sport. Most folks can pull together $100-150 for three mags and a double pouch. A lot of people probably can't come up with $4-700 for a new gun, even if they don't have to buy as many extra mags or pouches.

There are also current members that would need to buy a new gun to stay on a level playing field, and some of them will quit. How do I know that? When the high capacity guns showed up in the early 90s, I had to quit, because I was a poor 2nd Lt on active duty who simply couldn't afford a new gun, much less mags, etc for it. It took me years before I was able to afford coming back to the sport. I would hate to see us push folks away like that again. R,

I think I understand the consequences better now. While I personally would play in production if changed to 15, I'm now convinced that it would probably be better for the sport overall to stay at 10.

[G-ManBart]

I think I understand the consequences better now. While I personally would play in production if changed to 15, I'm now convinced that it would probably be better for the sport overall to stay at 10.

There is one positive to an increase to 15, that I don't recall anyone mentioning. It would make our rules closer to IPSC rules for folks who can manage to shoot in both. I don't think that's reason enough to change, but would be a nice "extra".

[beltjones]

I think I understand the consequences better now. While I personally would play in production if changed to 15, I'm now convinced that it would probably be better for the sport overall to stay at 10.

There is one positive to an increase to 15, that I don't recall anyone mentioning. It would make our rules closer to IPSC rules for folks who can manage to shoot in both. I don't think that's reason enough to change, but would be a nice "extra".

Good point. Though I would say this: The reason that point hasn't been mentioned is that IPSC has it wrong and we have it right. I know that's a controversial opinion, and mods feel free to edit or delete this post if you see fit. However, in my humble opinion, if Production is supposed to be the division that stems the "arms race" that this sport so often becomes, then IPSC is far behind USPSA. Again, this is just my humble opinion, and does not represent the views of the management.

[GrumpyOne]

I have already commented extensively on the matter within this thread. I would only be repeating myself by commenting further. As a new USPSA member, I was simply sharing my own thoughts and experiences.

The only thing I've seen you mention is that some prospective new members won't join because they'd likely need two or three more mags, and an extra double mag pouch. Sure, that might hold back a few people.

On the flip side, there are lots of people with 12-13 round guns that would need to buy a new gun, plus extra mags and pouches.

By sheer numbers, your idea would keep more folks out of the sport. Most folks can pull together $100-150 for three mags and a double pouch. A lot of people probably can't come up with $4-700 for a new gun, even if they don't have to buy as many extra mags or pouches.

There are also current members that would need to buy a new gun to stay on a level playing field, and some of them will quit. How do I know that? When the high capacity guns showed up in the early 90s, I had to quit, because I was a poor 2nd Lt on active duty who simply couldn't afford a new gun, much less mags, etc for it. It took me years before I was able to afford coming back to the sport. I would hate to see us push folks away like that again. R,

I think I understand the consequences better now. While I personally would play in production if changed to 15, I'm now convinced that it would probably be better for the sport overall to stay at 10.

Yeah, G-ManBart is quite convincing, isn't he? And to think, all this came AFTER he got shot in the head at Nats!

I really think you should play in production anyway...and limited...and SS....and open....

Look at it this way, once you shoot production for a while, reloading with no mag well, shootiing open or limited is super easy reloads! Can't miss that reload!

[dillon]

I came to shoot in Production Division after years of shooting in Revo- I find ten rounds a HUGE increase in capacity! I really feel the rules should be left alone for a while.

[GrumpyOne]

I came to shoot in Production Division after years of shooting in Revo- I find ten rounds a HUGE increase in capacity! I really feel the rules should be left alone for a while.

Now that is an opinion we haven't heard! That is a very valid point!

[chefcs5]

I shoot production and Id vote to raise the round limit to 15 or even to what ever your factory stock mag will hold even so some could shoot 17. I would love to see that happen!!! I feel discriminated against for not being allowed to use my gun to my full capacity!! LOL anywho. I actually would agree with the change but then again Id also love to shoot open or limited if I could.lol Alas no money to buy newupgrade current guns. Thats just me though. I can see where some are comming from in the fact that "new guys" could show up and shoot with the mags that came with the gun and stay in production, I also like that If you wanna shoot a 45 with only 13 rounds or what ever you could. Dont see that as a disadvantage to those new guys. If they became "serious" they would probably switch to a gun with higher cpacity and also prob go to a 9mm if they were staying with Production. Like most of the rest of the Production rules though....cept maybe the max length of the gun/mags to the belt(hard for us fat guys)lol

[rvb]

It's more about the software than the hardware.

there is little performance improvement gained between guns and divisions. Look at all the production legal guns used successfully in Limited. What I'm hearing here is that someone without enough mags for PD shouldn't be forced into limited because they then don't have the right gun? Great. Let's perpetuate the bull* that it's the gun that makes the shooter, or that you need specific equipment to be competitive.

PD is what it is BECAUSE it's 10 rounds. I've shot open a fair bit, too, and there is a lot to be learned going balls out not worrying about reloads and making a plan the is about pure efficiency. But there's also something to be said about having to break down a stage for 10 rounds, and the risk vs reward that comes from your reload plan in that stage breakdown.

IPSC Production is a joke with 15 rounds and race holsters. We have too many divisions that are too similar as it is. 15 rounds would make PD too similar to Lim.

If a new shooter is not willing to commit to the game enough to buy a couple of mags, will they come back regardless what we do? If someone shows up with only an IWB carry holster, should we have a division for just that, too? Should golf have a division for someone that only shows up with a set of irons? There's basic minimum equipment for any hobby/sport. I don't buy that a few bucks for a couple of mags is a deal breaker. Sounds more like a convenient excuse. In 5 years I've never needed more than 5 mags, and needing 5 mags is rare. I do not believe that is an honest barrier to people participating.

I, for one, would not shoot a 15 round production game.

-rvb

ps. as far as costing people $, I would have to buy new mags... most of mine are 10-rounders. Because I get them CHEAP. but that has nothing to do with my opinion on the matter, just another consideration in the "who do you want to force to buy new gear" question, the new guy or the involved guy?

Edited October 29, 2010 by rvb

[mpolans]

Any time a rule change is suggested, the critical factors (my opinion) are 1) how many new shooters will this change bring in. 2) how will it harm, discourage, or drive away current shooters? Your change won't bring any new folks, and it might drive off some current members....that equals a bad idea.

I agree with the bold portion 100%. I don't agree with the red portion at all. I agree with the speculation in blue.

The question then is what is the proportion of new shooters it would bring vs. the current shooters that would leave USPSA forever...I really doubt that someone who shoots one of those guns that will be "disadvantaged" by an increase to 15 will leave USPSA.

FWIW, I wouldn't quit USPSA, but I would probably quit Production. One of the things I like about Production is the necessity of doing mag changes and planning out a stage. With an increase in capacity, mag changes become less critical...I might as well sell my Production gun and just shoot Singlestack or L10 or just go with full mags in Limited.

[vluc]

I occasionally play Limited Minor with my Production gun and high cap mags fully loaded. It's an interesting change of pace but not something I would want to do all the time. If I did, I'd buy a G35 and go that route.

Production, for me, is not just about the shooting. I love the mental challenge of planning the stage for up to 10, maybe 11 round sequences, of setting reload points and the emphasis on hits. I like the thrill of hitting that near perfect reload multiple times in a course of fire, of knowing that I only have so many rounds to take a target with and that I can't spray and pray just because I have extra rounds to waste.

We all shoot for different reasons, and I feel the Divisions we have fully cover all those reasons. If you want to have more rounds in a magazine, shoot a division that allows it, if you feel short-changed in production because you have highcap mags and want to load them to capacity - hell, buy 10 rounders, then you ARE loaded to capacity in production. I still use the 10 rounders, even though I have beacoup highcaps. It fits the "spirit of production" for me.

We have choices, and are free to choose what division to shoot in. There are other divisions that can meet your needs, go play in them and leave the production sandbox alone.

[mpolans]

Or, change single stack to the Browning division. 8+1 1911's vs. 13+1 BHP's. Just like in the old days. I'd sign up for that one in a second.

I'd actually think this would be more interesting than increasing Production capacity to 15 rounds.

With today's high round count stages, would 8+1 of Major still be more advantageous over 13+1 of Minor? Might be interesting!

[MoNsTeR]

The 10 round limit is core to Production's identity as a division.

Part of that is the actual shooting. Planning multiple mag changes around a low capacity is a very different game than figuring out the one optimal place to make a Limited/Open reload. It requires iterating over multiple complex options, weighing risk vs. reward, and creates a huge mental shock that must be overcome when plans go awry.

But more important than that is the level playing field for a variety of equipment. The new guy who shows up with a .40 that holds 12 or 13 rounds not only would be at a difficult-to-justify disadvantage, but would have a hard time getting stage advice from guys with optimized gear. And then there are ban states, which are easy to dismiss when you say "it's only 3 or 4 states" but not so easy when you say "it's only 15%+ of the country's population".

I started shooing USPSA in Production. I've shot Production more than any other division. I would not be too interested in shooting it anymore if the capacity rule were changed.