15 round magazines in Production

[d_striker]

The 10 round rule along with the carry type holster keeps the game interesting and keeps the costs down. Uncle Mike's vs CR-Speed holster, the difference alone will buy you the mags you need and probably the carriers as well.

Actually, being able to load to 15 would reduce cost even more for a shooter with only 2-3 mags.

If we make Production Limited 15 minor, just how different is it from limited?

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm new, but 1911 type guns aren't allowed in Production, are they? This is a pretty big difference.

[Flexmoney]

I'll say I'm for 15 rounds and I really think I'm speaking for the new shooter more than for myself. I already have 5 CR Speed mag pouches on my belt and my reload times are getting fairly sporty.

What percent of shooters at the last Production nationals used that model?

Can't have it both ways... New shooter or "Nationals" shooter?

If you can't shoot on the move under the current division parameters because you have to shoot 10 rounds and do a static reload before proceeding, ad nauseum, it's sounds more like a problem with someone not adhering to the 8 rounds max per array rule. Fix that and your problem goes away.

I just don't buy that one. With generalized shooting areas as opposed to shooting boxes, what's an array and what's a position is often gray. Also if you have small poppers at any distance, the prudent move in Production is load and stop, while in Limited and Open it's to shoot on the move. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but it is that way.

Still stage design...

Here is a great example. I choose to do some extra reloads, which allowed me some freedom to shoot on the move more readily.

[Flexmoney]

I could care less about gun laws...

Flex, excuse my pickiness. It's couldn't care less.

Let me see...as in, I couldn't care less about pickiness?

[Sarge]

Somebody hand me a stick so I can beat this poor dead horse a few times. I like production as it is.

[Chuck Anderson]

The 10 round rule along with the carry type holster keeps the game interesting and keeps the costs down. Uncle Mike's vs CR-Speed holster, the difference alone will buy you the mags you need and probably the carriers as well.

Actually, being able to load to 15 would reduce cost even more for a shooter with only 2-3 mags.

If we make Production Limited 15 minor, just how different is it from limited?

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm new, but 1911 type guns aren't allowed in Production, are they? This is a pretty big difference.

Yes, having to buy an extra mag might be more expensive than not having to buy an extra mag. But it's a heck of a lot cheaper than buying a new gun. Are you really trying to justify changing a Division because someone has to spend an extra $50.00?

[d_striker]

The 10 round rule along with the carry type holster keeps the game interesting and keeps the costs down. Uncle Mike's vs CR-Speed holster, the difference alone will buy you the mags you need and probably the carriers as well.

Actually, being able to load to 15 would reduce cost even more for a shooter with only 2-3 mags.

If we make Production Limited 15 minor, just how different is it from limited?

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm new, but 1911 type guns aren't allowed in Production, are they? This is a pretty big difference.

Yes, having to buy an extra mag might be more expensive than not having to buy an extra mag. But it's a heck of a lot cheaper than buying a new gun. Are you really trying to justify changing a Division because someone has to spend an extra $50.00?

No, not at all. I was pointing out the inaccuracy of the first prefaced statement.

My entire viewpoint on this matter is the issue of encouraging new USPSA members. I'm new to USPSA but have been exposed to guns for over twenty years and have purchased/owned guns for about 12 years. I started shooting SC about three years ago and while I always wanted to start shooting USPSA, that 10 round Production rule was enough to keep me away. When IPSC changed the rule, I assumed USPSA did as well as I was new to the sport and didn't understand all of the specifics. But I will say that it was the thought of being able to shoot 15 rounds per mag in Production that is what got me to my first match. I figured, "I have three mags and a double mag pouch...I'm set." I shot Limited Minor that day as do many others in that situation. I'm not going to elaborate on how I feel about Limited Minor as I already have earlier in this thread.

I'm not a wealthy individual but I have much more discretionary income than most people. I don't go to bars anymore and I don't have kids. I was able to spend over $600 to get the gear and a different gun that I already owned set up for Limited. I understand that many people do not have this sort of discretionary income to get into Limited, especially these days. Hell, I got into Limited pretty cheap compared to most people. It seems that many people on here assume that everyone is as well off as they are.

I have a lot of friends that fall into the same boat. They own a lot of guns, enjoy shooting, and say that they would like to get into Steel Challenge/USPSA but don't want to make that initial investment of additional mag pouches and magazines just to see if they might enjoy the game.

I understand the camaraderie is great at these matches and people are eager to help each other out with gear, but who is really going to go to a match without the necessary gear and hope that it gets loaned to them? I know I wouldn't.

Edited October 27, 2010 by d_striker

[Flexmoney]

I dont buy the whole "you need alot of accessories to play" in uspsa.

If your gun came with 2 mags, is buying 2 more mags, a few cheap mag pouches and a cheap holster that much? It pales in comparison to the amount spent on ammo, match fees and practice.

In every case, if someone introduces you to the sport, they will let you borrow some stuff.

I have at least 4 mags for 80% of my handguns.

+1

[G-ManBart]

It is contrived. It's a direct action to incorporate more guns into the division. Increase the allowed capacity to 15 and you immediately force a good number of currently competitive firearms into obsolescence.

Specifically, what "competitive" gun model is being made non-competitive? What percent of shooters at the last Production nationals used that model?

What the people at Nationals used really doesn't matter. What matters is that there are a lot of perfectly suitable Production guns that would be hindered by an increase to 15-rounds. The appeal, to many, is not having to buy a new gun and/or mags. Change the current rule, and lots of folks are going to think they need to buy a new gun.

I just don't buy that one. With generalized shooting areas as opposed to shooting boxes, what's an array and what's a position is often gray. Also if you have small poppers at any distance, the prudent move in Production is load and stop, while in Limited and Open it's to shoot on the move. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but it is that way.

What Open and Limited shooters do has absolutely no bearing on what a Production shooter does/should be able to do. Essentially, you're saying "make Production more like Limited/Open, so I can shoot stages the way those guys do". The only thing that matters is how you do it, in relation to the other Production shooters. Maybe you'd like to add a scope and compensator while you're at it...hey, that will let you shoot on the move, at longer distances, just like the Open shooters, right? Changes to make Production more similar to another division, are a bad idea.

Any time a rule change is suggested, the critical factors (my opinion) are 1) how many new shooters will this change bring in. 2) how will it harm, discourage, or drive away current shooters? Your change won't bring any new folks, and it might drive off some current members....that equals a bad idea.

If folks want to shoot stages the way Limited or Open shooter do, they can put together the gear, and sign up, just like anybody else can. R,

[d_striker]

Any time a rule change is suggested, the critical factors (my opinion) are 1) how many new shooters will this change bring in. 2) how will it harm, discourage, or drive away current shooters? Your change won't bring any new folks, and it might drive off some current members....that equals a bad idea.

I agree with the bold portion 100%. I don't agree with the red portion at all. I agree with the speculation in blue.

The question then is what is the proportion of new shooters it would bring vs. the current shooters that would leave USPSA forever...I really doubt that someone who shoots one of those guns that will be "disadvantaged" by an increase to 15 will leave USPSA.

Edited October 27, 2010 by d_striker

[beltjones]

Literally any time anyone wants to try a new sport or activity there is a cost involved. Want to start martial arts? Buy a gi. Want to start rock climbing? Mortgage your house. Want to join a basketball league? You're probably going to buy new shoes at least. Want to join the company softball team? Buy cleats and a glove. The list of examples goes on and on. Why would current USPSA members assume that new members would feel any differently about USPSA?

If you want to get into the shooting sports you are probably going to have to buy a few things. To anyone legitimately interested in giving this sport a try it's really not that big of a deal. I really can't imagine most people would be that turned off at having to buy a couple of magazines for a gun they already have.

If anything, the thing that keeps people away is the major ego bruise that comes from realizing they're not as good with their pistol as they thought they were. After that it's probably that a lot of shooters are too focused on their performance to be friendly and welcoming. If you really want to encourage new shooters, then a simple rule change isn't going to do it (do we really so arrogantly assume that non-members are keeping up with rule changes anyway?). What would make a difference is a dedicated new shooters initiative, complete with mentors for new shooters, instructional stage walk-throughs, gear advice, etc. Making people feel welcome and safe is what makes the difference.

Edited October 27, 2010 by beltjones

[Sarge]

Literally any time anyone wants to try a new sport or activity there is a cost involved. Want to start martial arts? Buy a gi. Want to start rock climbing? Mortgage your house. Want to join a basketball league? You're probably going to buy new shoes at least. Want to join the company softball team? Buy cleats and a glove. The list of examples goes on and on. Why would current USPSA members assume that new members would feel any differently about USPSA?+1 No worthwhile hobby is very cheap to get into.

(do we really so arrogantly assume that non-members are keeping up with rule changes anyway?)

+1 again. Most new shooters I help out are not even sure how many rounds they can put in a mag anyway.

[mgood]

Everyone's talking about Limited Minor with a production gun. I see a lot more people buying .40 than 9mm. So Limited Major with a Production gun.

Do people still buy 9mm other than for competition or for tiny little concealment guns, or something for the wife/gf (J/K, sort of, on that last part.)

I worked in a gun store for a little while. (That's where I got to know the people who got me involved in USPSA.) Maybe it's a regional thing, but very few people I saw buying a full-size pistol (or even a nearly full-size pistol) want a 9mm when they can get a .40 S&W in the same size gun. About 30-40% of what we sold were 1911s in .45 ACP. About that same amount, or very slightly more, were Glock, XD, et cetera, mostly in .40. (About half-n-half between full-size and compact versions.) When someone mentions wanting a 9mm, someone else is like " why?" The rest were looking for little pocket Kel-Tecs and LCPs. (Yeah, we sold revolvers too. I'm just talking about autos here. No offense to the revo guys.)

I don't want to start a self-defense caliber debate, at least not on this forum. I'm just reporting the trend that I saw.

Since most new guys show up with Wal-Mart ammo, the .40 shooters are seriously disadvantaged by being scored the same as those with a 9. They're not reloading and probably aren't going to start reloading next week, or next month, so they're stuck shooting major and being scored minor. (I did that for a while until I ordered some .40 Minor from Atlanta Arms & Ammo.)

I guess what I'm saying is that Production may have been intended to attract the new shooter who just purchased his first pistol, the trend I saw of what new shooters were buying was not really all that well suited to Production.

I was a little disappointed that I could only put 10 rounds in my 15-rd mags and that my .40 was going to be scored minor. . . Or alternatively, I could load 'em up to 15, be scored major, and shoot in Limited class against the 2011s holding a lot more ammo.

There just didn't seem to be a Division where my gun fit all that well.

Fortunately, I bought a 1911 just a week or two before my first USPSA match, so I shot SS.

Some people are under the impression that ISPC/USPSA is all about impractical race guns. IDPA guys love to claim that. We say that's not true. You can shoot Production or Singlestack divisions with normal carry gear. Then they show up and find they don't have nearly enough mags and mag pouches to actually shoot Production. Lots of these people saved for months to be able to afford the pistol. Now they're struggling to come up with money for a concealment holster and for a CCW class. And we tell them go buy more magazines. IDPA starts looking very good to them. They can go over there and say they didn't want to get into all the IPSC race gear.

I don't have the solution. I'm just giving my take on the issues I see.

For that matter, when was the last time you saw a USPSA member (in any division) run a stage with just two mags on their belt?

Saturday. When I shoot Production, I use one dual mag pouch and have a couple extra mags stuffed in my left hip pocket. (I'm not suggesting this is the way to be competitive, just that it is done.)

Most XD's come with a holster and double mag pouch right out of the box.

All.

Not sure if down the middle is the right line where shooters are split. I routinely talk to the people I shoot with. Part of being an AD. I'm getting substantially less than 50% that want the Production capacity changed. Adding you and Chad I've now heard from 3 people that want it to be 15. I've heard from close to 100 that don't want it changed. New shooters, experienced shooters. GM's, D's. Doesn't really seem to matter. Some will initially say, it'd be neat to have 15, but when the down side is mentioned, immediately change to 10 is better.

I started out thinking that 15 would be better. I started reading this thread intending to agree with badchad. After reading both sides, I just don't know. I still tend to think that 15 rounds would be a bit more welcoming to new shooters. But I see the issues with a "Limited 15" division, so I don't know if that's necessarily the way to go.

Actually, being able to load to 15 would reduce cost even more for a shooter with only 2-3 mags.

USPSA is all about the local matches where the vast majority of our members shoot at one or two clubs. It is then somewhat about Section and Area Matches where a somewhat smaller groups shoots and far less about the Nationals where a very small subset of our membership shoots.

If Shooting your Production gun loaded to 10 rounds out of a carry type holster bothers you, feel free to stoke it tot he top and shoot Limited Minor with your 9mm or go whole hog and shoot your .40 DA Limited Major, heck fee free to shoot it in Open with a Doctor type sight.

I know a guy who's doing just that. Showed up to his first match with a plastic production type gun with some sort of Doctor type sight. Put him in Open. He placed very respectably for a newbie and scored 50% and 60% on his first two classifiers.

I could care less about gun laws...

Flex, excuse my pickiness. It's couldn't care less.

Let me see...as in, I couldn't care less about pickiness?

Saw that one coming long before I turned the page.

Sorry for the rambling, directionless reply.

[BradM]

Badchad seems to be under the impression that everyone who shoots USPSA is looking to go to nationals or be #1 in their division.

I shoot USPSA (production and L10) in order to get what I feel is good training time with my holster & pistol, doing mag changes, target acquisition, etc. Being a MA resident unless the mag was made before our ban, it's a felony to possess, so most people I know with newer firearms can only have 10 round mags. Bringing those people out to shoot production gives them more experience with their everyday pistol and at least a shot at being competitive if that's what they're looking for.

There's no good reason to change it.

[JAFO]

It appears there are two different arguments in this thread. The first being that the 10 round limit doesn't allow the shooter to be as competitive as a 15 round limit. The second being that the 10 round limit pushes new shooters away because of them having to purchase more mags and mag pouches to shoot Production.

I've been shooting USPSA Production for over two years and I don't understand the first complaint. Yes, more capacity would change the way you could shoot a stage, but you're only competing against other Production shooters who ALL have a 10 round limit. How does that limit make you less competitive than the other Production shooters? If you want to talk about certain guns being more competitive than others, then talk about trigger type, trigger pull weight, sights, sight radius, etc. But basing your point on the one aspect that's actually exactly the same for all guns involved doesn't make sense to me. I don't mind the 10 round limit. I also wouldn't mind being able to put 18 rounds in my mags. So when my accuracy gets to the point where I'm making a lot more A's and a lot fewer C's, I'll consider trying Limited Minor and load to capacity.

As for the new shooters shying away because of buying more equipment, I think there may be another aspect to that - ammunition costs. The magazines, holster, and mag pouches I bought to compete cost a lot less than what I spent on ammunition before I started reloading (and even after I started reloading, for that matter). Someone mentioned shooters moving over to IDPA because of the equipment costs, but those people may have ammo costs in mind as well. I've never shot IDPA, but it's my understanding that round counts are significantly lower than in USPSA. The cost of 75-100 rounds per match looks pretty good compared to 120-150 rounds per match, especially since any USPSA stage with steel on it seems to eat an awful lot of ammo when you're starting out (come on, how many rounds did it take you to clean a Texas Star the first time? ). Once anyone realizes the cost of the ammunition needed to participate in these games, the cost of a few mags and mag pouches is a minor investment. And as others have said, what new sport or hobby doesn't require you to invest a little something for equipment?

Regarding the new shooter who gets put into Limited because of a lack of magazines, who said they need to compare their scores strictly against the other Limited shooters? If someone's new to USPSA and shows up with what they have (let's say a 9mm w/ three 15rd mags), put them in Limited Minor on the scoresheet and encourage them to compare their scores to the other Production shooters at the match to get an idea of where they might fall if they shot Production. It won't be apples to apples, but neither is comparing a production gun with 15-rd mags to a modified Limited gun (most of which are shooting major pf). They more than likely aren't USPSA members and might not want to join until they try a few matches, and I feel it should be up to the experienced shooters to encourage the new guys to not worry about scores the first time out. Just have them get a feel for a match and see how they like it. Did they have a good time, enjoy the atmosphere, learn something new? If they like it, someone can go over the Divisions and let them know what they'd need to shoot Production or L10.

[d_striker]

Literally any time anyone wants to try a new sport or activity there is a cost involved. Want to start martial arts? Buy a gi. Want to start rock climbing? Mortgage your house. Want to join a basketball league? You're probably going to buy new shoes at least. Want to join the company softball team? Buy cleats and a glove. The list of examples goes on and on. Why would current USPSA members assume that new members would feel any differently about USPSA?

We are talking about people that already own guns. Who is more likely to go play a softball; someone that already has a bat, glove, and cleats, or someone that just has cleats and has to go out and buy a bat and glove?

If anything, the thing that keeps people away is the major ego bruise that comes from realizing they're not as good with their pistol as they thought they were.

That initial reality check of not being as good with a pistol as I thought was what got me hooked to Steel Challenge.

Making people feel welcome and safe is what makes the difference.

You are absolutely correct. You gotta get them to their first match to begin with, though.

Edited October 27, 2010 by d_striker

[Flexmoney]

Just some data points...

I've shot my Glock 26 in Production this year. I like it in Production...

I recently bought 5 magazines for my old Colt Match Target, so that I can shoot it in Steel Challenge (5 runs per stage). I also bought 5 mags for my .22 rifle, for the same purpose. ...because, that is what it takes to play properly.

[beltjones]

We are talking about people that already own guns. Who is more likely to go play a softball; someone that already has a bat, glove, and cleats, or someone that just has cleats and has to go out and buy a bat and glove?

That initial reality check of not being as good with a pistol as I thought was what got me hooked to Steel Challenge.

You are absolutely correct. You gotta get them to their first match to begin with, though.

Why would someone playing softball for the first time already have a bat, glove, and cleats? Your analogy makes no sense. You're saying the only people who would go play softball are the ones who have already played baseball or softball before (and hence already have the equipment), when clearly that isn't the case. New people play softball all the time, and clearly they weren't born with the equipment. But we digress...

Different people handle the ego thing differently.

I already posted the way to get people to their first match, and it has nothing to do with equipment. In the year I've been competing with a pistol (IDPA and USPSA), I've seen lots of new people come out. I've seen a lot of new people post on message boards about what they need to compete for the first time. The common answer is not, "You need X, Y, and Z before you can come out." In fact, the common answer is, "Just bring what you have and we'll figure out a way for you to get involved."

Again, I think there are various factors that keep people from coming out, and the misconception that USPSA is only for Open and Limited shooters is one of them. But I just can't believe that the reluctance to buy 2 or 3 magazines for a gun one already owns ranks very highly as a reason to stay home for most new shooters. Since you keep pointing out examples from your own experience that run contrary to everyone's points, I'll hit you with my own experience that counters what you're arguing. When I first thought about competing I thought it was a great reason to buy new magazines to replace the crappy 10 rounders that came with the G17 I bought in 1999. Until that point 10 round magazines that didn't drop free were just fine for public range use (thus I couldn't justify the expense of new ones), but I was happy to have a reason to replace them with now-legal standard capacity magazines.

Again, people start new activities knowing they will incur an expense of sorts. And to go one step further, we're talking about gun owners here. How many of us know a gun owner who is loathe to purchase new gun accouterments? If anything, we're all just looking for a reason to buy new guns and gear, even if we have to save up a little.

[GForceLizard]

Who are all these lame production shooters at your local club where a new shooter can show up and expect to win?

[smokshwn]

Literally any time anyone wants to try a new sport or activity there is a cost involved. Want to start martial arts? Buy a gi. Want to start rock climbing? Mortgage your house. Want to join a basketball league? You're probably going to buy new shoes at least. Want to join the company softball team? Buy cleats and a glove. The list of examples goes on and on. Why would current USPSA members assume that new members would feel any differently about USPSA?

We are talking about people that already own guns. Who is more likely to go play a softball; someone that already has a bat, glove, and cleats, or someone that just has cleats and has to go out and buy a bat and glove?

To correct your analogy;

The problem isn't that said individual does not have the basic bat, glove, and cleats (gun, mags, ammo) and he/she learns that they may want to buy a hat and sunscreen (extra mags and mag pouch).

The problem is that the individual shows up for a game with a bat, glove, and cleats (Glock 21, mags, ammo) and we are telling them that they have purchased the WRONG bat glove and cleats.

[sperman]

If you want someone to believe that the 10 round limit is turning shooters away, go find some and get their input. Everyone in this thread has bought the necessary equipment to compete in our sport, none of you quit because of the 10 round limit. I find it hard to believe there are many shooters who showed up, had to shoot limited minor (or borrow a mag) liked the sport, but decided they couldn't afford another magazine or two and quit shooting. My guess is, if they didn't feel like it was worth spending $50, they probably weren't that interested in the sport anyway.

Leave production at 10 rounds.

I've shot limited minor, and it's a blast. Get the base pad extensions and you can fit 25-26 rounds in a 9mm magazine. Very few reloads during a match, and if you shoot A's you now have a competitive advantage, not a disadvantage.

[Maksim]

Speaking for NJ.... with a wacked 15 round limit on magazines...

for the law abiding citizens, try finding 15 round mags for alot of these guns. They either come in 10 round (for banned states), or standard capacity. For handguns like Hk P30 9mm, 15 rounds is what they fit.... however standard size glocks, XD's, M&P's, all fit a few more beyond 15... and none of them typically carry standard mags, 10 round mags, and 15 round mags for NJ.

Only Smith Wesson recently started selling 15 round 9mm mags for NJ. If you are getting a CZ, you need to find old Mec-Gar 15 round mags, or Magnum Research Baby Eagle 9mm mags. the new EAA/CZ mags are all 16 or 17 rounds. What we end up with is an issue of having to find an FFL who is willing to modify the magazine for you to get it to 15.

Being in NJ, we have alot of shooters from PA come to the events due to proximity. Do you mean to say that everyone from NJ is SOL to the guys in PA because they can get legally a standard cap magazine?

What sort of an image/message would USPSA send out by saying.... if you live in a ban state, you are SOL, and we dont care about you. USPSA is about what state you live in, and not about your shooting abilities.

If 10 rounds are really a hindrance.... learn to shoot accurately and plan your mag reloads. If not being able to shoot 15 rounds in Production is your biggest issue, and you cannot shoot Limited Minor.... you have bigger issues to worry about.

Edit... btw, as an owner of a NJ forum, and a relatively young USPSA shooter, 6 matches... , we have been introducing new shooters to USPSA in the past few matches, ask Jim Norman. Not ONE! has complained about 10 rounds in Production, or about having to find more mags. In a few cases, a more experienced shooter lent out a full glock 19 rig to a new shooter, we have provided on numerous occasions mag pouches, and I have offered extra magazines for people that would not have them initially.

Being friendly is what gets people to come and try the sport and keep coming back, not being able to stuff in 5 more rounds.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Maksim

[d_striker]

Why would someone playing softball for the first time already have a bat, glove, and cleats? Your analogy makes no sense. You're saying the only people who would go play softball are the ones who have already played baseball or softball before (and hence already have the equipment), when clearly that isn't the case. New people play softball all the time, and clearly they weren't born with the equipment. But we digress...

You are taking the analogy too literally. I was taking one of your analogies, and pointing out the fact that the much of the segment we are actually discussing, already owns the necessary equipment required (pistol, three mags, mag pouch) and would be able to compete if bumped up to 15 without worrying about borrowing any gear. I'm not saying "the only people who would go play softball are the ones who have already played baseball or softball before" at all. I was comparing who would be more likely to participate in said activity based on any hypothetical gear they may already own. The analogies you made make less sense as you liken the individual as not owning any gear at all.

As previously mentioned, I'm new to USPSA and I don't want to give the impression that I think that I know everything about the sport. I'm just sharing my own experiences and not claiming that my own opinion is the best for the overall sport.

Edited October 27, 2010 by d_striker

[Maksim]

and yes... I shoot Single Stack Minor, 10 rounds... with the longest COF being 32 rounds... if you really need more than 40 rounds.... you need to focus on your accuracy. Only on one occassion I needed to go into my 5th mag (Barney mag), and used 1 round of it. Do I own 6 mags for the gun? Yes.... but at most I carry 1 in the gun, 3 on the belt, and on seldom occassions, a barney mag in my pocket.

[d_striker]

I've shot limited minor, and it's a blast. Get the base pad extensions and you can fit 25-26 rounds in a 9mm magazine. Very few reloads during a match, and if you shoot A's you now have a competitive advantage, not a disadvantage.

I don't think that having 4-5 more rounds of 9mm over .40 is a competitive advantage when keeping in mind the difference in points between Bravo&Charlie in Major and Minor.

On a 120 point stage, I'd rather shoot all Charlie's under Major scoring in 11.9 seconds than shoot all Alphas's in 15 seconds under Minor.

[Chuck Anderson]

I've shot limited minor, and it's a blast. Get the base pad extensions and you can fit 25-26 rounds in a 9mm magazine. Very few reloads during a match, and if you shoot A's you now have a competitive advantage, not a disadvantage.

I don't think that having 4-5 more rounds of 9mm over .40 is a competitive advantage when keeping in mind the difference in points between Bravo&Charlie in Major and Minor.

On a 120 point stage, I'd rather shoot all Charlie's under Major scoring in 11.9 seconds than shoot all Alphas's in 15 seconds under Minor.

Before we drift this too far, I can shoot Alphas a lot faster minor than I can Major. The one stage win I have at a Nationals was a 24 round field course I shot with a G17 and a 23 round magazine. No reload and I managed to win the stage. Limited minor is not an advantage overall. If it was everyone would be shooting it. But there are times when there is an advantage.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread. We've got one guy that says he wanted to shoot 15 because it changes the stage flow. Another who didn't want to join USPSA because he'd need to buy a couple extra mags and apparently only did when he read the wrong rule set (IPSC). I'm still not seeing a good reason to make the change.

If there is a rule change that will make people's equipment obsolete, there needs to be a darn good reason. A clear advantage to doing so. For example, If USPSA were to remove the .40 caliber limit on Major in Limited many of the same arguments could be made. However, a whole bunch of shooters would now have .40 cal Limited guns that were no longer "competetive". Would there be an advantage for some allowing 9mm Major in Limited, sure, but a large group within the organization would be disadvantaged. Doubt it's gonna happen.

It's an easier argument for me to say to a new shooter that they can come out with dang near any centerfire handgun and we have a Division where they can compete. It may not be the best but they can be competetive. Heck I almost got beat by