Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

15 round magazines in Production


badchad

Recommended Posts

Any time a rule change is suggested, the critical factors (my opinion) are 1) how many new shooters will this change bring in. 2) how will it harm, discourage, or drive away current shooters? Your change won't bring any new folks, and it might drive off some current members....that equals a bad idea.

I agree with the bold portion 100%. I don't agree with the red portion at all. I agree with the speculation in blue.

The question then is what is the proportion of new shooters it would bring vs. the current shooters that would leave USPSA forever...I really doubt that someone who shoots one of those guns that will be "disadvantaged" by an increase to 15 will leave USPSA.

Why in the world would increasing from 10 to 15 invite more folks than the current rules? That makes no sense at all. If you have a gun that holds 15, you can download it to 10 and be set. If you have a gun that hold 13, and everybody else has 15, you're at a disadvantage. So, more prospective shooters would be at a disadvantage after a change to 15 round limits....that's going to turn at least a few away that the current rules invite with open arms.

Maybe someone won't leave USPSA if they suddenly find themselves at a mag capacity loss to other shooters, but you've just penalized some current members for prospective members...really bad idea. Alienating current members doesn't seem like the right path to take.

Simple point is that Production is wildly popular at many clubs. My club has more Prod shooters than anything else, and many are newer shooters. They're happy to learn that the Glock, XD, M&P, Sig, whatever they have won't hold them back, and all they probably need is a couple extra mags. Change to 15 and some won't want to buy a new gun to be on an even playing field with everybody else. R,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 285
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I was a little disappointed that I could only put 10 rounds in my 15-rd mags and that my .40 was going to be scored minor. . . Or alternatively, I could load 'em up to 15, be scored major, and shoot in Limited class against the 2011s holding a lot more ammo.

Or alternatively you could shoot Limited 10. As far as the rest of the argument about .40 being more common, that is a regional difference. Some parts of the country sell a lot more 9mm than .40 and vice versa. Either way though there is somewhere these folks can compete. If you want to shoot Major, shoot Limited 10. If you want to shoot minor, shoot Production. If you want more than 10, shoot Limited or Open.

I've said my piece. I know I won't be proposing a bump to 15 rounds. I doubt any of my fellow directors will either, but if they do I'll be voting against it. If someone comes up with the uber argument, something new that hasn't been said, I'm always willing to change my views, but rehashing the same argument over and over again, is not convincing me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've shot limited minor, and it's a blast. Get the base pad extensions and you can fit 25-26 rounds in a 9mm magazine. Very few reloads during a match, and if you shoot A's you now have a competitive advantage, not a disadvantage.

I don't think that having 4-5 more rounds of 9mm over .40 is a competitive advantage when keeping in mind the difference in points between Bravo&Charlie in Major and Minor.

On a 120 point stage, I'd rather shoot all Charlie's under Major scoring in 11.9 seconds than shoot all Alphas's in 15 seconds under Minor.

Before we drift this too far, I can shoot Alphas a lot faster minor than I can Major. The one stage win I have at a Nationals was a 24 round field course I shot with a G17 and a 23 round magazine. No reload and I managed to win the stage. Limited minor is not an advantage overall. If it was everyone would be shooting it. But there are times when there is an advantage.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread. We've got one guy that says he wanted to shoot 15 because it changes the stage flow. Another who didn't want to join USPSA because he'd need to buy a couple extra mags and apparently only did when he read the wrong rule set (IPSC). I'm still not seeing a good reason to make the change.

If there is a rule change that will make people's equipment obsolete, there needs to be a darn good reason. A clear advantage to doing so. For example, If USPSA were to remove the .40 caliber limit on Major in Limited many of the same arguments could be made. However, a whole bunch of shooters would now have .40 cal Limited guns that were no longer "competetive". Would there be an advantage for some allowing 9mm Major in Limited, sure, but a large group within the organization would be disadvantaged. Doubt it's gonna happen.

It's an easier argument for me to say to a new shooter that they can come out with dang near any centerfire handgun and we have a Division where they can compete. It may not be the best but they can be competetive. Heck I almost got beat by

I certainly understand and agree with what you say.

However, the section in bold is a little skewed. We're talking about maybe 95% of Limited shooters shooting .40 compared to maybe 5% of Production shooters using one of the guns that would be "obsolete."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any time a rule change is suggested, the critical factors (my opinion) are 1) how many new shooters will this change bring in. 2) how will it harm, discourage, or drive away current shooters? Your change won't bring any new folks, and it might drive off some current members....that equals a bad idea.

I agree with the bold portion 100%. I don't agree with the red portion at all. I agree with the speculation in blue.

The question then is what is the proportion of new shooters it would bring vs. the current shooters that would leave USPSA forever...I really doubt that someone who shoots one of those guns that will be "disadvantaged" by an increase to 15 will leave USPSA.

Why in the world would increasing from 10 to 15 invite more folks than the current rules? That makes no sense at all. If you have a gun that holds 15, you can download it to 10 and be set. If you have a gun that hold 13, and everybody else has 15, you're at a disadvantage. So, more prospective shooters would be at a disadvantage after a change to 15 round limits....that's going to turn at least a few away that the current rules invite with open arms.

Maybe someone won't leave USPSA if they suddenly find themselves at a mag capacity loss to other shooters, but you've just penalized some current members for prospective members...really bad idea. Alienating current members doesn't seem like the right path to take.

Simple point is that Production is wildly popular at many clubs. My club has more Prod shooters than anything else, and many are newer shooters. They're happy to learn that the Glock, XD, M&P, Sig, whatever they have won't hold them back, and all they probably need is a couple extra mags. Change to 15 and some won't want to buy a new gun to be on an even playing field with everybody else. R,

While we probably won't ever agree on the overall issue regarding generating interest among new shooters, I think that the point you make in bold is the most pertinent and relevant argument in favor of keeping it at 10.

Edited by d_striker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm new, but 1911 type guns aren't allowed in Production, are they? This is a pretty big difference.

I don't follow the point. Although I am a devoted 1911/2011 shooter, there are lots of Glock/M&P/et al shooters holding their own in Limited. A striker fired gun isn't a disadvantage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't follow the point. Although I am a devoted 1911/2011 shooter, there are lots of Glock/M&P/et al shooters holding their own in Limited. A striker fired gun isn't a disadvantage.

Read the question I was addressing and it will make sense....I didn't say it was a disadvantage. I was merely stating a difference. The major difference that I see was that it would still be all of the guns on the approved Production gun list.

If we make Production Limited 15 minor, just how different is it from limited?

Edited by d_striker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was a little disappointed that I could only put 10 rounds in my 15-rd mags and that my .40 was going to be scored minor. . . Or alternatively, I could load 'em up to 15, be scored major, and shoot in Limited class against the 2011s holding a lot more ammo.

Or alternatively you could shoot Limited 10. As far as the rest of the argument about .40 being more common, that is a regional difference. Some parts of the country sell a lot more 9mm than .40 and vice versa. Either way though there is somewhere these folks can compete. If you want to shoot Major, shoot Limited 10. If you want to shoot minor, shoot Production. If you want more than 10, shoot Limited or Open.

I wasn't really arguing for or against, just making some observations.

I have loaded up the 15-round mags and shot Major in Limited with that gun. (At one classifier match.)

I've loaded the mags with 10 and shot Major in L10. (At the same classifier match plus one other match.)

I think that pistol is more competitive in Production. I ordered some .40 minor and put 10 at a time in the mags. It's all good.

I shoot Singlestack, but dabble in Production, so it's not going to drive me away one way or the other.

The main thing is keeping it beginner-friendly so someone can "run what they brung." How best to do that, I'm not sure. But it looks like leaving it alone is at least as good a plan as anything else I've seen proposed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a lot of friends that fall into the same boat. They own a lot of guns, enjoy shooting, and say that they would like to get into Steel Challenge/USPSA but don't want to make that initial investment of additional mag pouches and magazines just to see if they might enjoy the game.

I just want to be sure I understand. There are people out there who own "a lot of guns", "enjoy shooting" and want to get into competitive shooting, but the cost of a few ma pouches and mags is stopping them?

Let's be serious. How much are they spending on ammo? How much did they spend on their guns? How much do they pay in range fees, hunting licenses, and carry permits? How much do they spend on gun gadgets, going to gun shows, gun safes, shooting/hunting clothes, etc?

Is it really the cost of a couple of mag pouches and magazines (items that they can also use for non-competitive shooting, btw) that's stopping them from getting into the sport? I don't buy that.

I suspect that many of these folks (just like many of my semi-shooter buddies) pay lip service to the idea of shooting competitively, but they just don't have the time, energy, or drive to take on a new hobby. It's a lot easier to buy a gun and go plinking every now and then than it is to get up early on the weekend, drive to a match, try something you might suck at and/or commit yourself to actually learning something. Yammering about not being able to load your mag to capacity is just an excuse.

I know - I was one of those guys for a few years before I got bit by the bug. Divisional definitions never kept me out of the sport - enjoying Fri night beers and sleeping late on Saturday did!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the point that increasing the capacity to 15 will alienate some current members is correct. And what is the number one way most people get started in USPSA? I'll give you a hint: It's not the nationwide mainstream media-based advertising campaign that USPSA has launched. It's not the USPSA super bowl ad. It's not the USPSA website (though that has gotten better). It's the current members who invite their friends out to a match, or who talk about their local clubs on message boards and the like that attract new members. Not alienating current members should be a cornerstone of any plans to grow the sport, and that includes keeping the rules how they are in instances where the vast majority of current members are in favor of them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a lot of friends that fall into the same boat. They own a lot of guns, enjoy shooting, and say that they would like to get into Steel Challenge/USPSA but don't want to make that initial investment of additional mag pouches and magazines just to see if they might enjoy the game.

I suspect that many of these folks (just like many of my semi-shooter buddies) pay lip service to the idea of shooting competitively, but they just don't have the time, energy, or drive to take on a new hobby. It's a lot easier to buy a gun and go plinking every now and then than it is to get up early on the weekend, drive to a match, try something you might suck at and/or commit yourself to actually learning something. Yammering about not being able to load your mag to capacity is just an excuse.

Good point as I suspect this for at least one of my friends.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm new, but 1911 type guns aren't allowed in Production, are they? This is a pretty big difference.

I don't follow the point. Although I am a devoted 1911/2011 shooter, there are lots of Glock/M&P/et al shooters holding their own in Limited. A striker fired gun isn't a disadvantage.

To that point, I started in production with a G34. In January, I built out a 35 which I shot for 4 months, then got a deal on an STI, which I shot for the last 6. I shot the G35 better. Why, is a different story, but despite the division being polluted with S*I platforms, you can still shoot them competitively with Glocks - I have the plaque to prove it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm new, but 1911 type guns aren't allowed in Production, are they? This is a pretty big difference.

I don't follow the point. Although I am a devoted 1911/2011 shooter, there are lots of Glock/M&P/et al shooters holding their own in Limited. A striker fired gun isn't a disadvantage.

To that point, I started in production with a G34. In January, I built out a 35 which I shot for 4 months, then got a deal on an STI, which I shot for the last 6. I shot the G35 better. Why, is a different story, but despite the division being polluted with S*I platforms, you can still shoot them competitively with Glocks - I have the plaque to prove it.

Again, that's not the point I was making.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We're talking about maybe 95% of Limited shooters shooting .40 compared to maybe 5% of Production shooters using one of the guns that would be "obsolete."

Just curious. Where did you get the 5% figure?

It was a guess. Hence the "maybe.".

Could be less, could be more.

Edited by d_striker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any time a rule change is suggested, the critical factors (my opinion) are 1) how many new shooters will this change bring in. 2) how will it harm, discourage, or drive away current shooters? Your change won't bring any new folks, and it might drive off some current members....that equals a bad idea.

I agree with the bold portion 100%. I don't agree with the red portion at all. I agree with the speculation in blue.

The question then is what is the proportion of new shooters it would bring vs. the current shooters that would leave USPSA forever...I really doubt that someone who shoots one of those guns that will be "disadvantaged" by an increase to 15 will leave USPSA.

Why in the world would increasing from 10 to 15 invite more folks than the current rules? That makes no sense at all. If you have a gun that holds 15, you can download it to 10 and be set. If you have a gun that hold 13, and everybody else has 15, you're at a disadvantage. So, more prospective shooters would be at a disadvantage after a change to 15 round limits....that's going to turn at least a few away that the current rules invite with open arms.

Maybe someone won't leave USPSA if they suddenly find themselves at a mag capacity loss to other shooters, but you've just penalized some current members for prospective members...really bad idea. Alienating current members doesn't seem like the right path to take.

Simple point is that Production is wildly popular at many clubs. My club has more Prod shooters than anything else, and many are newer shooters. They're happy to learn that the Glock, XD, M&P, Sig, whatever they have won't hold them back, and all they probably need is a couple extra mags. Change to 15 and some won't want to buy a new gun to be on an even playing field with everybody else. R,

While we probably won't ever agree on the overall issue regarding generating interest among new shooters, I think that the point you make in bold is the most pertinent and relevant argument in favor of keeping it at 10.

Well, we certainly won't ever agree if you aren't willing to explain why you don't agree ;)

It's simple, really. You seem to be saying that you think a 15 round limit would entice more folks to join USPSA. Why is that? Just by sheer numbers, there have to be more guns that fit the 10rd rule than the 15rd rule...hard not to be that way when there are a extremely popular guns that fit that criteria...Glock 23, M&P Compacts, etc, etc.

I'm certainly not all-knowing, but I've started quite a few new shooters, along with explaining the sport to damned near every law enforcement officer I can get to nibble on the concept, and I have a fair idea of what those new folks respond to. They respond to "hey, what you've got is fine, we might have to borrow a couple of extra mags and maybe an extra mag pouch or two, but that's it".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Used G22 (w/ two mags) - $315.

Extra mags - $10/ea.

Uncle Mikes holster and two double mag pouches (or any value brand) - say... ~ $50

(those costs are close to current, I checked)

You can get into USPSA in one of the 10 round divisions for less than $400 in gear.

If a person wants to get good with their gear, they are going to need to spend some money .... They will need to pay for gas, ammo, range fees, etc. And, possibly some training.

In my opinion, competition shortens the learning curve. You get to see what works and what doesn't, both in your shooting in others. Then, you can learn where to focus you efforts and resources.

In other words, for those that are willing to get out there and see how good (or bad) they really are...gear cost isn't a factor.

With gear as cheap as it is, in comparison to the other costs of shooting a good amount, we aren't holding any newbies back by the cost of gear. Good gear is available at decent prices. (I got started with loaner gear, and I have loaned out quite a bit of it over the years.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any time a rule change is suggested, the critical factors (my opinion) are 1) how many new shooters will this change bring in. 2) how will it harm, discourage, or drive away current shooters? Your change won't bring any new folks, and it might drive off some current members....that equals a bad idea.

I agree with the bold portion 100%. I don't agree with the red portion at all. I agree with the speculation in blue.

The question then is what is the proportion of new shooters it would bring vs. the current shooters that would leave USPSA forever...I really doubt that someone who shoots one of those guns that will be "disadvantaged" by an increase to 15 will leave USPSA.

Why in the world would increasing from 10 to 15 invite more folks than the current rules? That makes no sense at all. If you have a gun that holds 15, you can download it to 10 and be set. If you have a gun that hold 13, and everybody else has 15, you're at a disadvantage. So, more prospective shooters would be at a disadvantage after a change to 15 round limits....that's going to turn at least a few away that the current rules invite with open arms.

Maybe someone won't leave USPSA if they suddenly find themselves at a mag capacity loss to other shooters, but you've just penalized some current members for prospective members...really bad idea. Alienating current members doesn't seem like the right path to take.

Simple point is that Production is wildly popular at many clubs. My club has more Prod shooters than anything else, and many are newer shooters. They're happy to learn that the Glock, XD, M&P, Sig, whatever they have won't hold them back, and all they probably need is a couple extra mags. Change to 15 and some won't want to buy a new gun to be on an even playing field with everybody else. R,

While we probably won't ever agree on the overall issue regarding generating interest among new shooters, I think that the point you make in bold is the most pertinent and relevant argument in favor of keeping it at 10.

Well, we certainly won't ever agree if you aren't willing to explain why you don't agree ;)

It's simple, really. You seem to be saying that you think a 15 round limit would entice more folks to join USPSA. Why is that? Just by sheer numbers, there have to be more guns that fit the 10rd rule than the 15rd rule...hard not to be that way when there are a extremely popular guns that fit that criteria...Glock 23, M&P Compacts, etc, etc.

I'm certainly not all-knowing, but I've started quite a few new shooters, along with explaining the sport to damned near every law enforcement officer I can get to nibble on the concept, and I have a fair idea of what those new folks respond to. They respond to "hey, what you've got is fine, we might have to borrow a couple of extra mags and maybe an extra mag pouch or two, but that's it".

I have already commented extensively on the matter within this thread. I would only be repeating myself by commenting further. As a new USPSA member, I was simply sharing my own thoughts and experiences.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Instead of worrying about 15 rounds in production, I would support shooting 1911's and other single action guns in production.

Personally, I'd like to see 1911's allowed in Revolver division.

Actually, it would be cool if they allowed stock BHP's to compete in Production (complete with mag disconnect safety), but 1911's already have enough divisions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...