15 round magazines in Production

[Corey]

i dont like the idea of calling Production "the division for beginners". Yes, most beginners in this sport start in PRO (unless your a real man and start your USPSA career in SS ), but its not just for beginners. I dont think it was designed to be that way. It was designed as a division to use fairly "stock" guns and gear. Allowing race holsters is a bad idea. They are allowed in 4 other divisons, leave this one alone. Adding race holsters is just more gear that people think they will need to be able to compete and may not want to get involved.

The division works. leave it be.

Signed, guy who has never shot Production

[badchad]

In the context of getting people started in the sport, yes. The people who show up for their first matches with a G21 don't have a clue what's being used at the Nationals. They only know what they have on their nightstand.

Great, but lets not pretend that a G21, is a competitive pistol platform, capable or taking you all the way in Production if not for its limited mag capacity. If you show up with a G21, nobody will turn you away in Production, L10, or Limited. People shoot with guns that are not truly competitive in their class all the time. If a new guy shows up with a subcompact that holds 13 and is happy to shoot it, I’m betting he’ll be just as happy to shoot it if the mag capacity is 15 as if it is 10. Based on my observations, he’ll often be happier to load his mags to capacity than leave them 3 short.

[Chuck Anderson]

I bet I can win an argument if I just say everyone elses response is irrelevant. You may think it's irrelevant but clearly there are a few people that don't find it irrelevant. Personally I find your argument using IPSC as an example of going to 15 completely irrelevant. IPSC had no limit before. Guns were being approved with 20+ round capacities and it was starting to make the division very specialized as to what guns were competetive. You only had an option of 2-3 guns before capacity dropped significantly. By dropping to 15, IPSC made more guns competetive. You seek to do the opposite.

Your argument about how many guns are competetive at Nationals is irrelevant. USPSA doesn't make rules specifically for Nationals (at least not in regards to Divisions), and even if we did, we certainly wouldn't for Production. While Production has evolved into a division with some truly great competition it's still the Division I recommend to people to start in. Not just because you can get a gun cheap, but because it works all the fundamentals. It's why I went to Production from Limited. Production gives the new shooter somewhere to shoot where they are shooting against guns that look like theirs. Telling the Glock 23 shooter to go ahead and shoot in L10 is going to be a bit discouraging when they see the guy who wins the Division shooting a $2500.00 STI.

And while I'm sure you have a deep breadth of knowledge about the guns of the Super Squad I do remember shooting with Ernie Langdon at Nationals with his M&P .45. If memory serves (and it might not) Vogel's first Nationals win was with a Glock 35 in Production. Admittedly a gun with a 15 round capacity but it does show that a .40 can be competetive at that level. I also seem to remember Olhasso with a .40 cal Beretta but don't hold me to that.

There are a lot of guns that have capacities below 15 rounds, whether they are .40, .45 or compact guns. Is the person shooting them going to beat Dave Sevigny with the gun. Probably not. Can they shoot it locally and have fun knowing they don't have to go out and buy a gun to shoot our "entry" Division? Yes.

The argument about the new shooter showing up with 3 magazines does hold a bit of weight for me. We have a new shooters class, online booklet and live fire that would have covered this. If it's a common gun I know almost all shooters would have loaned the gear to get you through. Even if you don't want to be that guy, most people were there at one point. I normally bounce them to Limited, let them load em up and then come back the next month with an extra mag or two. With the plentiful supply of cheap 10 rounders it's easy to do.

[bbbean]

15 rounds in Production would encourage new shooters to compete with minimal expenditure. Most people that own a factory gun own 3 magazines with 15 round capacity. A simple kydex double mag pouch and you now have 45 rounds at your disposal. I think that to currently shoot Production successfully, one must have at least 5 mags on them. Especially if you're a new shooter and performing more towards the D class spectrum. This means purchasing two additional magazines and another double mag pouch.

How do you know "most people" have 3 mags and a double mag pouch? All of my production-suitable guns came with 2 mags and no mag pouch or holster. Just like competing in any other sport requires an investment, you have to buy equipment to compete in USPSA (or SC, or IDPA, or NRA AP, or ....). At a minimum, you're going to need a holster, mag pouches, and a few extra mags, but a hundred dollar bill or less should get you set up well enough to try the sport, and the gear you buy will still be useful even for plinking or other shooting sports.

If someone gets the bug, they're not going to leave because they had to buy an extra $15-35 mag or two. For that matter, when was the last time you saw a USPSA member (in any division) run a stage with just two mags on their belt? If S*I Limited shooters are running stages with 3 or 4 19-22 round mags on their belt and one in the gun, wouldn't Lim-15 shooters need 4 or 5 mags on their belt to be competitive and covered in case of a flubbed reload, bad round, or mandatory reloads on classifiers?

Crux of the matter is that I just don't see shooters leaving the sport because they only get to load 10 rounds in their 9mm Glock or M&P, any more than I see people leaving the sport because they have to score their 40 or 45 minor or use a non-race holster to compete in Production. If you can't find a division you're happy in, maybe you're just being too picky..

[badchad]

Springfield XD 40 only holds 12 rounds is the first one that comes to mind.

Problem solved for the very few who shoot an XD40.

http://www.arredondoaccessories.com/category.cfm?cid=1001,2015&PID=fi22l2540wnvhs&GID=XDBP

IPSC went to 15 rounds to stop the arms race and I'll bet there are people in IPSC who want to go to 10 rounds.

I used to follow the IPSC forum and remember this topic getting A LOT of heated debate. I don't recall anyone significant numbers arguing in favor of reducing the count to 10 rounds.

[Flexmoney]

In part because I don't think the rest of the country should bow to California's gun laws.

I could care less about gun laws. Shooting 10 rounds is a great challenging.

But the part that makes me care most is that I see a lot of places I would like to engage targets on the move, where with 10 round mags the best thing to do is load, shoot stationary, load, shoot stationary, ad nauseam.

That is a stage design issue. Start designing stages that don't cater to the same old stuff.

[Corey]

Problem solved for the very few who shoot an XD40.

http://www.arredondoaccessories.com/category.cfm?cid=1001,2015&PID=fi22l2540wnvhs&GID=XDBP

so now you have to buy MORE gear to be competitive? and will that gun make weight now? not to mention im fairly certain that mag extensions like that aren't legeal in the division.

[Flexmoney]

I'd rather be able to use race holsters in production like they do in IPSC.

Of course... everybody wants more. More rounds, more holster choices, and on and on...

[D.Hayden]

Another idea.. just shoot IPSC and you're done!

[mpolans]

Keep it at 10 rounds.

[beltjones]

I like the idea of keeping it 10 rounds.

To quote Dave Sevigny, "Production is a great place to start, and it's a great place to stay." While it's true that most beginners come in shooting Production (and SS, of course), it's also true that most people who stay in Production do so because they enjoy the extra strategy involved in shooting Production, and of course the increased accuracy required to score well shooting minor. With 10 rounds, I have to plan my reloads effectively, and scoring minor I have to take care to make sure my shots count. With 10 round magazines on an 8 shot array, I only have 2 or 3 make up shots I can take before I have to do a standing reload. It's a great test of shooting skill and mental fortitude.

In my opinion, going to a 15 round limit greatly reduces the accuracy and strategy that must be employed, and thus will turn off experienced shooters who enjoy those aspects of the game. Production will still be a great place to start, but it won't be such a great place to stay if you remove the aspects of it that make it fun for the more experienced shooters.

[d_striker]

When new people show up to our matches, even if they have enough mags to shoot production, I usually encourage them to shoot Limited Minor. It allows them to focus more on the safety than on worrying about reloads. Even people who are decent shooters will not likely do well at their first couple USPSA matches until they really learn the game and what is efficient in this game. By the time they are hooked enough to be concerned with their placement, they are hooked enough to buy a couple more mags to shoot Production.

This is exactly what I went through two months ago. Can we count on enough of these new shooters to become truly hooked after shooting Limited Minor? I was hooked, but also discouraged shooting Limited Minor with a production gun. So what did I do? I turned my XDm 40 into a Limited Gun.

[d_striker]

Telling the Glock 23 shooter to go ahead and shoot in L10 is going to be a bit discouraging when they see the guy who wins the Division shooting a $2500.00 STI.

It's even more discouraging telling someone with a Production gun to shoot Limited Minor against that same $2500 STI. At least in L10, everyone is playing with the same capacity and Power Factor.

Edited October 27, 2010 by d_striker

[beltjones]

Honestly, if brand new shooters are discouraged that they're losing, then the club hosting them is sending them the wrong message. That has nothing to do with what equipment they're competing against.

Also, to be completely honest, I think most new shooters like the built in excuse for losing that comes with shooting Limited or L10 minor. Knowing you were a bit handicapped from the start cushions the blow to the ego that is the result of a new shooter comparing his skills to that of an A, M, or GM.

I got started in IDPA, and looking back at my first several performances - which were abysmal - I still make the mental excuse that I was slow because I had to fish magazines out of my hip pocket. The point being, it may be less discouraging to new shooters to shoot Limited minor. If they lose, they can reconcile it to the fact that they were "outgunned" rather than the fact that they just suck. I know that's what I did my first few times out.

Edited October 27, 2010 by beltjones

[Chuck Anderson]

Telling the Glock 23 shooter to go ahead and shoot in L10 is going to be a bit discouraging when they see the guy who wins the Division shooting a $2500.00 STI.

It's even more discouraging telling someone with a Production gun to shoot Limited Minor against that same $2500 STI. At least in L10, everyone is playing with the same capacity.

But it's normally a very simple thing to tell them to get an extra magazine or two and come back to Production at the next match. It's a lot easier than telling them to buy a new gun. There are always going to be what if's. Buying a couple extra magazines will be a lot easier sell to the new shooter than spending however much on a new gun.

When you tell them their best bet is Limited minor you explain to them the Divisions and that their gun fits best into Production, but they'll need at least "x" number of magazines to compete in that Division because of the 10 round capacity. Explain that by shooting Limited they are at a disadvantage for this match, but they'll be able to complete all the stages with the number of magazines they bought. I've been bringing new shooters into USPSA for 16+ years. Even before there was a Production Division. I've never had a problem explaining to them that equipment is not their biggest concern. Of course I've shot Glocks or CZ's for all but a few years of that so maybe I'm just one of those guys that thinks it's more about the shooter than the gear.

[d_striker]

How do you know "most people" have 3 mags and a double mag pouch? All of my production-suitable guns came with 2 mags and no mag pouch or holster.

I'm not claiming to know how many mags come with most guns. I'm using my own and friend's experience. I know all my shooting friends (that don't compete) have both a holster and double mag pouch. I bought a Sig Pro in 2005 that came with 3 mags...A sig 226 in 2006 that came with 3 mags. Most XD's come with a holster and double mag pouch right out of the box.

For that matter, when was the last time you saw a USPSA member (in any division) run a stage with just two mags on their belt? If S*I Limited shooters are running stages with 3 or 4 19-22 round mags on their belt and one in the gun, wouldn't Lim-15 shooters need 4 or 5 mags on their belt to be competitive and covered in case of a flubbed reload, bad round, or mandatory reloads on classifiers?

Actually, I only have two CR Speed mag pouches and 3 21 round mags for my Limited gun. I figure 63 rounds on me is enough for now. I agree with what you are saying though...At 15 rounds, I would still want to have at least 3 mags on my belt and one in the gun...However, I could make do with just 3 mags until I could afford to get another mag. How many classifiers have more than one mandatory reload? Seriously, as a new shooter to USPSA, I honestly don't know. I've only shot classifiers with a single mandatory reload. Are there classifiers with more than one mandatory reload?

Crux of the matter is that I just don't see shooters leaving the sport because they only get to load 10 rounds in their 9mm Glock or M&P, any more than I see people leaving the sport because they have to score their 40 or 45 minor or use a non-race holster to compete in Production. If you can't find a division you're happy in, maybe you're just being too picky..

I don't see anyone leaving the sport either. That's not the issue I'm bringing up. The issue I'm referring to is getting new people into the sport. Do you see many shooters leaving the sport if Production changed capacity to 15? How many new shooters would be gained? It's easily apparent that most existing USPSA members are split on this issue down the middle. I realize that you can't please everyone.

Also, I did find a division that I'm happy in....Limited after spending $600 upgrading my gear.

[Chuck Anderson]

Problem solved for the very few who shoot an XD40.

http://www.arredondoaccessories.com/category.cfm?cid=1001,2015&PID=fi22l2540wnvhs&GID=XDBP

Which Production box are you managing to fit that extended magazine into? I know my G34 didn't have a whole lot of wiggle room at Nationals.

[Chuck Anderson]

It's easily apparent that most existing USPSA members are split on this issue down the middle. I realize that you can't please everyone.

Not sure if down the middle is the right line where shooters are split. I routinely talk to the people I shoot with. Part of being an AD. I'm getting substantially less than 50% that want the Production capacity changed. Adding you and Chad I've now heard from 3 people that want it to be 15. I've heard from close to 100 that don't want it changed. New shooters, experienced shooters. GM's, D's. Doesn't really seem to matter. Some will initially say, it'd be neat to have 15, but when the down side is mentioned, immediately change to 10 is better.

[d_striker]

It's easily apparent that most existing USPSA members are split on this issue down the middle. I realize that you can't please everyone.

Not sure if down the middle is the right line where shooters are split. I routinely talk to the people I shoot with. Part of being an AD. I'm getting substantially less than 50% that want the Production capacity changed. Adding you and Chad I've now heard from 3 people that want it to be 15. I've heard from close to 100 that don't want it changed. New shooters, experienced shooters. GM's, D's. Doesn't really seem to matter. Some will initially say, it'd be neat to have 15, but when the down side is mentioned, immediately change to 10 is better.

It's a very cool aspect of this sport that everyone's thoughts and concerns are heard and valued. I enjoy this sport more and more every day.

[Avezorak]

Im for keeping it at 10 rounds. If people dont like it, shoot Limited. Nearly every new shooter we have at our match starts out shoot Lim with a production gun with mags loaded up. Next month they either have more mags to shoot production or stay with Limted and enjoy it.

[David Olhasso]

I see no reason to mess with the 10 round mag limit in production. The 10 round rule makes it easy for nearly anyone, from any state, or from any other discipline (such as IDPA SSP), to come and shoot uspsa production. If a 15 round limit were introduced, shooters from certain states would be forced to break the law to play, many of us would be forced to buy new mags and a bunch of guns currently used in production would no longer be viable including the XD 40, Beretta 40, Sig 229 40 and most any 45.

I am in now way a fan of IPSC production. The trigger rules are jaded against the striker fired guns and until the 15 round limit appeared, it was an absolute arms race to get the biggest mag possible included from the factory. There is no reason for the US production rules to follow or mimic any of the IPSC production rules.

I have competed in production with a couple different 40s including the beretta 96 (11 rounds), XD (12 rounds) and 4.25" M&P (15 rounds). When the 5" M&P 40sw is legal, expect to seem me with a 40 once again.

Production as it is works just fine. No need to change it.

Edited October 27, 2010 by David Olhasso

[GForceLizard]

I like the 10 round limit in production. If you want to shoot more than 10 rounds sign up for limited. I've done it and I know several other people that do it on a regular basis locally. If your plan is to be competitive then use the appropriate equipment. You don't need to change the rules.

[GForceLizard]

I could care less about gun laws...

Flex, excuse my pickiness. It's couldn't care less.

[Jim Norman]

USPSA is all about the local matches where the vast majority of our members shoot at one or two clubs. It is then somewhat about Section and Area Matches where a somewhat smaller groups shoots and far less about the Nationals where a very small subset of our membership shoots.

If Shooting your Production gun loaded to 10 rounds out of a carry type holster bothers you, feel free to stoke it tot he top and shoot Limited Minor with your 9mm or go whole hog and shoot your .40 DA Limited Major, heck fee free to shoot it in Open with a Doctor type sight.

The 10 round rule along with the carry type holster keeps the game interesting and keeps the costs down. Uncle Mike's vs CR-Speed holster, the difference alone will buy you the mags you need and probably the carriers as well.

I have and do shoot every division at one time or another. I like that they are different. The more different the more better. If we make Production Limited 15 minor, just how different is it from limited? Why not then just lower the PF so 9mm makes it out of Winchester White Box and toss Production right out? Lets allow a dot on our limited guns and we can all then just shoot Open?

Makes perfect sense to me

[Jim Norman]

I could care less about gun laws...

Flex, excuse my pickiness. It's couldn't care less.

That is unless he really does care somewhat and could actually care less than he does.