mildot1 Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 Can a club holding a USPSA match require shooters to join a private club to shoot?? Mildot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odawgp Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 they can although they won't be very successful in the long run I shoot at a private club in which I am a member and we allow non members to shoot for an additional 10 bucks a day "range fee" verses making them join Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 I've shot at clubs that charged a higher match fee---usually $3-$5 for non members, also had to sign a release to shoot a match at a club where I wasn't a member. Never seen a requirement to join the club to shoot a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 Are you saying that you have to join the USPSA club or a private club at which the USPSA club shoots at? My club allows anybody to shoot the club matches. Non members pay $5.00 extra and their scores are not entered into the YTD match standings for end of year awards. Cheers, Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 Can a club holding a USPSA match require shooters to join a private club to shoot?? Mildot I have had to join clubs to shoot their matches. I was told it is for insurance reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 the club i shot at yesterday has a $1 one-day club membership form to fill out, for insurance reasons. they dont charge an extra $1 tho.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pro2AInPA Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 the club i shot at yesterday has a $1 one-day club membership form to fill out, for insurance reasons. they dont charge an extra $1 tho.... I shoot USPSA at 5 different clubs and none of them charge more for non-club members. I think they all charge $5 extra for non-USPSA members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 the club i shot at yesterday has a $1 one-day club membership form to fill out, for insurance reasons. they dont charge an extra $1 tho.... I shoot USPSA at 5 different clubs and none of them charge more for non-club members. I think they all charge $5 extra for non-USPSA members. Is there a grace period for that? Like say after the 3rd match you have to pay the extra? I would think if anything you'd try to make it cheaper for newbies to shoot. Once you get them hooked, then drive the price up...just like crack dealers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 I shoot USPSA at 5 different clubs and none of them charge more for non-club members. I think they all charge $5 extra for non-USPSA members. Is there a grace period for that? Like say after the 3rd match you have to pay the extra? I would think if anything you'd try to make it cheaper for newbies to shoot. Once you get them hooked, then drive the price up...just like crack dealers. Chuck, The Mid-Atlantic Section has a set match entry fee schedule and a set cash prize policy. We do indeed charge non-USPSA members five dollars more per match than USPSA members. We sweeten that by allowing folks who join USPSA at a match (any level 1 match, not necessarily their first) to shoot that match for free. (We just collect the appropriate membership fee and pass it along with the paperwork on to Sedro Woolley.) Old Bridge and Central Jersey were both recognized in Front Sight a few years ago for bringing in a significant number of new members. Dave, you're right we don't charge more for non-club members. All clubs in the section though may discount their entry fees for members of the home club. Many, but perhaps not all, do. Comes down to the economics of the particular match. I know at least one club used to discount match entries for the first five people who showed up to help build the match.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 There is no rule that says "you are allowed to restrict matches to only club members". Conversely, there is 3.3, which says: USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express consent of the President of USPSA. IMHO, saying "you can only shoot our matches if you are a member of our club" is exactly the same as "you can only shoot our matches if you are [someone we like] or [a local] or [..whatever]" If it is a USPSA match, it is open to everyone. If it isn't open to everyone, they're enforcing a "local rule", and it isn't a USPSA match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 If it is a USPSA match, it is open to everyone. If it isn't open to everyone, they're enforcing a "local rule", and it isn't a USPSA match. I'm not sure that's entirely correct. I know of folks who have been banned from local ranges -- by way of restraining orders, or threats of criminal trespass prosecution upon return -- who are USPSA members and not welcome at that club's USPSA match..... Then there's the "Invitational" matches, like the AWARE and Miller matches, which at least by name required an invitation to participate. The Nationals are invitational matches; technically not open to everyone who wants to attend, just to those who manage to secure a slot --- although to the best of my knowledge, no one's been turned away in recent years..... USPSA matches don't happen without volunteer effort by clubs and their members. While I fully support the concept of open matches for growth, I can't complain about having to join a club for a day -- if that's what it takes to satisfy their insurance requirements.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 (edited) conversely, the club i belong to charges $15 for a USPSA match but only $10 for actual club members. not a member, pay the USPSA price. you are a member, get a little discount. Edited July 5, 2010 by Corey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 "Members Only" is usually not a "local rule" from the USPSA club. Typically it is an insurance requirement of the host range. Usually they have some type 'daily' membership to satisfy the requirement. So, you pay the additional fee and you are covered and can shoot on the property for the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 If it is a USPSA match, it is open to everyone. If it isn't open to everyone, they're enforcing a "local rule", and it isn't a USPSA match. You are correct, however, don't overlook the provisions of Rules 6.4.4 and 6.4.5 Match Directors (at all levels) have reasonable authority to deal with "stuff". The reporting requirement is there to protect the shooter from unreasonable situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 Every uspsa club I shoot at charges $8-10 more more for non-club members versus club members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 If it is a USPSA match, it is open to everyone. If it isn't open to everyone, they're enforcing a "local rule", and it isn't a USPSA match. You are correct, however, don't overlook the provisions of Rules 6.4.4 and 6.4.5 Match Directors (at all levels) have reasonable authority to deal with "stuff". The reporting requirement is there to protect the shooter from unreasonable situations. I initially thought about 6.4.4 ... but then I read it as more pertaining to the limited arena of unsafe shooters or others who would disrupt the match and/or bring discredit to the sport. I'm not certain I could, in good faith, use it to apply to a "lack of membership in the sponsoring club" logic of this thread. 6.4.3 says no person may be barred for gender, race, religious, or occupational reasons ... but it does not go on to state anything about membership in the the sponsoring club. 3.3 addresses exceptions due to statute or legal precedent. Can we consider insurance requirements a "legal precedent?" If so, then 3.3 could conceivably be stretched to cover the other thread for issuing a DQ for a muzzle pointed over the backstop (but not breaking the 180.) We've pretty well established that intrepretation is not acceptable. The 1st Principle of USPSA is that "Practical competition is open to all reputable persons without regard to occupation. It may specifically not be limited to public servents." It is silent on membership in the sponsoring club. I'm not at all convinced the book addresses this question whatsoever ... at least not for a Level I match. I think an argument could be made for a Level II or III match as these - by definition - invite shooters from an area larger than the sponsoring organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reshoot Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 My local range does not charge extra for non-members. Nor do they require USPSA membership. Even though I am a member, you gotta love that! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted July 5, 2010 Share Posted July 5, 2010 I initially thought about 6.4.4 ... but then I read it as more pertaining to the limited arena of unsafe shooters or others who would disrupt the match and/or bring discredit to the sport. I'm not certain I could, in good faith, use it to apply to a "lack of membership in the sponsoring club" logic of this thread. 6.4.3 says no person may be barred for gender, race, religious, or occupational reasons ... but it does not go on to state anything about membership in the the sponsoring club. I was simply pointing out that a blanket "can't exclude anyone" is not precisely correct and that exclusions can be valid within the rules. Rule 6.4.4 does not, as you said, apply to club membership issues. Requiring a full-fledged club membership in order to shoot a USPSA match is not, IMO, a legitimate requirement. Over the years, I have personally witnessed many instances (not related to shooting) of "required due to insurance" being used without real foundation. If I were told I have to join a club (for insurance reasons) to shoot a USPSA match at that venue, I would be asking to see that policy. I would hope that such a range/venue would find a more open approach to supporting the resident USPSA club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted July 7, 2010 Share Posted July 7, 2010 (edited) I would report any club that would not allow a USPSA member to shoot at a USPSA match. Charging more is fine, barring non-members is not. The main purpose of USPSA membership is to support the national organization, become classified, AND be able to shoot at any USPSA club. I've shot all over the country, including at Nik's two clubs in this thread, and fortunately never run into a problem where they would not allow non-club members to shoot. As a student, I'm transient. Last summer, I lived in Philly. Before that, I lived at my college. Now I live in Indiana. Soon, I will move again to a new school for law school. The rules are the rules, they are not suggestions, and no USPSA club should be allowed to bar any safe shooter from shooting a USPSA match. It's a benefit of being a USPSA member, and a requirement to having a USPSA club. Edited July 7, 2010 by twodownzero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted July 7, 2010 Share Posted July 7, 2010 Per their website, a club in St. Louis only allows people to shoot there three times, then you have to join the club to shoot anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted July 7, 2010 Share Posted July 7, 2010 Per their website, a club in St. Louis only allows people to shoot there three times, then you have to join the club to shoot anymore. This is true and I have no problem joining the club.(there are reasons why this is) there is also another club around the St Louis area(well IL.) that you have to join to shoot USPSA matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted July 7, 2010 Share Posted July 7, 2010 I would have to think twice about shooting a USPSA match at a club that requires me to join to shoot there. We do have clubs where members get to shoot a USPSA match for a reduced fee as opposed to those mentioned that add more to non-club members. But to pony up for a full membership to shoot once a month or once every few months, no way. What method is used to inform shooters in advance of attending one of these clubs about this requirement? I would like to think that any section that has a web page should have this information posted and available to shooters. Not sharing this is a good way to turn people off. And like George said, if they have a written policy about insurance reasons, provide it to the USPSA match director at that club and have him/her post it on their section site for all to see. Curious if these apply to anyone shooting at that range or just USPSA matches. I personally think BS, but that is just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted July 7, 2010 Share Posted July 7, 2010 (edited) Curious if these apply to anyone shooting at that range or just USPSA matches. Our club founded in the 1950's is a private, not-for-profit club, open to members only and you must be an NRA member. It is a "member only" club. However, you can come and shoot three times as a guest. This is 3 times total (two steel match, one IPSC match) or any combination of steel and IPSC match. You may formally join by applying for membership to the Club. We have trap and skeet Cowboy action,Steel matches,Bulls eye.....the list goes on. Or you can just come out and shoot 365 days a year if you are a member. This is all stated on our website.This applies to anyone shooting at the range not just matches. Edited July 7, 2010 by bkeeler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 (edited) My club is a private club to . You have to be a NRA member to join but it wouldn't make any difference if we charge less for members because all 3 of us set the match up and set up crew is free . Sign a wavier once a year and anyone can shoot for $15.00 The few of the members talk about coming out but very few have ever tried it. I have tried and tried to get more out. Most of are shooter's drive a hour or more to come to are club. Brent Edited July 8, 2010 by colt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joecichlid Posted July 8, 2010 Share Posted July 8, 2010 This is a new one to me. Although I have heard of a club or two that require you to be a member in order to access the scores on their web site, the only place they are posted. So if you shoot as a non-member you are pretty much shooting for fun unless one of your budies will let you use their PC/user name/password to check your scores. Joe W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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