No Law Or Military Categories

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

I'm only commenting here on the IPSC thought process in respect of categories. Let me start by saying that I personally have the highest respect and admiration for anybody who puts themselves in harm's way for the general good of our respective communities and, having met Phil Strader briefly at WSXIII (and without wanting to patronize him), I sense that he embodies and represents the "best of the best", in more ways than one.

The difficulty for IPSC on a global basis should be viewed from an "exclusive" rather than an "inclusive" basis. By that, I mean how do we decide who does not qualify within "X" employment or vocational category?

For example, should an international LEO/MIL category include people who are only deemed to be "active" or "currently employed as", or should "past service" be considered too? If we say "active duty only", then we offend those with (often distinguished) past service. What about part-time peace officers? Should we then make it "full-time active duty" or do we require a minimum number of hours service per week? If so, how many hours and how do we check? What about people employed full-time by a LEO/MIL organisation but in posts which never come into harm's way (e.g. 911 operators)?

Perhaps we could say "those who are required to carry a firearm in the normal course of their active duty"? So, what happens to Military Medics, Padres and numerous others who play critical roles and who come into harm's way, but who have "support" not "offensive" roles? Many Chiefs of Police and other senior officers don't carry firearms, but there's no denying the role they play in their organisations. And then there are doctors, nurses, para-medics and other "rescue workers" who put their lives on the line every day too. What do we do about them? What about Reservists? In Hong Kong we have Auxiliary Police who carry guns and who have full powers of arrest, and some of them only work one 8 hour shift a week but they still come into harm's way.

And let's never forget our Fire Fighters.

This is why IPSC, after much soul-searching and considerable discussion, decided to restrict categories to sex and age, as always. These are easily identifiable, they apply equally to all professions and vocations, and they are not "exclusive". Of course I realise there are different views on this subject, and some of them are highly emotive, but I just wanted to explain the difficulties in having employment or vocational based categories.

Having said all that, there's nothing stopping individual matches, clubs, sections, areas, States or Regions recognizing and awarding additional categories which may prevail within their own communities. For example, in the Philippines, they often have a "Celebrity" category at matches, because there are a few actors, entertainers and similar people who shoot IPSC and qualify for trophies under that category. They also recognise LEO/MIL, but they include "retired" personnel, however it's never been clear to me how many years of past service entitles somebody to be considered "retired" instead of "formerly employed as". No matter how you cut it, the criteria are subjective.

It's just that with so many different employment and vocational criteria around the world, it's nigh impossible for IPSC to globally recognise anything other than sex or age categories at international matches.

[zorba]

Bravo Vince very well said..

[diehli]

That sounds like a very good string of reasoning, Vince.

IMO, officially, IPSC/USPSA shouldn't recognize the category at the major match level, but unofficially, it sounds like something that the organizations should encourage at the local and area levels to stimulate the influx of new blood.

[steve223]

I Agree with Phil It dident cost anything so whynot leave it.I think its agood thing to give a few props to Mil & Le. I know in my local clubs we have a hard time getting LE and MIL. guys out to shoot, A little extra inncentive couldent hurt.

Steve

[Bucky]

I'm not sure how the incentive here works, when "top" shooters will usually fall into one of these categories. If you make M and GM not eligible, then at least there is a prayer's chance... and since we're only talking trophies...

Besides, I'm expectin' Phil to be taking the "BIG" limited trophy THIS year!

[gmshtr]

Count on it, Bucky! Getting that close, just to blow it makes me hungrier!

I understand most of your points, and I completely understand Vince's arguement, as well. Honestly, the deletion of these categories doesn't bother me as a shooter. If I don't win a match overall, a High Law trophy certainly doesn't take the sting away!

I'm more concerned with the new LEO/Mil shooter who may be striving to win such an award.

Not to sound repetitive, but who does it hurt to award these guys with a simple plaque? Is a monetary thing? Does it upset the shooters who are not eligible? What?

[oddjob]

I'm LEO and the LEO class was at first kinda cool (good draw). Now a gazillion dollars later I don't mind NOT shooting in the LEO catagory and just shoot along with everyone else. Besides......its less embarassing that way............

[Vince Pinto]

Phil,

I demand to be counted. I demand equal rights. I demand affirmative action. I demand a Fat Bastards © category.

Maybe next rulebook

[99gski]

My 2 cents for what they are worth...

I think that military involvement further validates us as a legitmate, honest to goodness sport. Official military involvement started with the AMU's small action pistol team and look at the participation we have at matches from our service members since! The Air Force has a grown from the one man success show, Terry Tichenor, to a group of 5 or more members. That High Military Award, or as they like to call it Interservice Champion, is a big deal in the military community. Granted in the case of the AMU, Army Team members are considered professional shooters, but you'd be surprised that it isn't just shooting that makes up their day and at a moments notice, those same guys could be overseas defending their country. It is a chance they take for their dreams and goals.

As for Law Enforcement... I think special recognition should be awarded to the officer who everyday defends the public against criminals. A high stress job, serving the community and going into harms way while still taking the time to practice and compete in a sport that just might save his or her life... yeah, I think special recognition is definitely called for and deserved.

I am with Phil... it seems a small price to pay for a great group of people.

[Tupperware]

Phil,

I demand to be counted. I demand equal rights. I demand affirmative action. I demand a Fat Bastards © category.

Maybe next rulebook

I've been lurking for some time, finally a reason to register. Fat Bastard category is a great idea. Could we compete for McDonalds gift certificates instead of trophys?

Phil,

Instead of collecting another piece of wood for your "me" wall as High LE the cost of said item could be spent recruiting and RETAINING all those new shooters you've introduced to our sport.

John

[HI5-O]

Phil has a good point. I was shooting before becoming an LEO or joining USPSA. An organization that recognizes LE is important to me. Sure, a lot of the LEO's shooting are doing so with race gear/guns and I feel if you enter the LEO class you should shoot with duty gear otherwise it is just another class to collect an award. I've tried to recruit fellow LEO's to shoot with us but all they have is their duty gear and issued pistol. Once they see how fast it is to draw, shoot, reload with a race gun/gear and the reduction in tactics, they soon find themselves at the bottom of the order of finish. These guys will either buy race guns/gear or shoot IxxA or not come back. Now that USPSA will not recognize LEO/MIL it gives them more of a reason not to shoot with us. IPSC/USPSA is not training for an LEO but it's a whole lot of fun. Just my .02

[Wakal]

It has long been my worthless opinion that LEO should be only recognized if shot with duty gear...as issued and carried, not tricked out. Same for Military...an M9 out of a Bianchi flap holster or a SOCOM out of a Safariland 6004...

Otherwise, as said, it just becomes another trophy.

Alex

[Radagast]

Lets see.

First overall.

First master.

second master.

third master.

first a grade.

etc

down to First Senior,

first super senior,

first Lady,

first junior and however far down the tree you want to go, in open standard, modified,revolver and production divisions.

One more set of trophys is just another expense for match organisers.

Stick em in production with their production guns and let them compete against the average shooter. If they are looking at it as training, they want to beat the average shooter cause if the time comes that they need to use their firearm for a truly practical purpose, being better than the average con may save their life.

If they win/position well then at the match announcement they can be declared top cop. If they win in a category of 1 to 5 shooters but ranked c grade against the real winner, is there any value in it?

I was top A grade production at my last state titles. My funeral urn prize is of no value to me as I was the only A grader.

On the other hand, the Open when I beat the reigning National champion meant something to me. I wore my prize medallion home that night.

[gmshtr]

I didn't want this to turn into a financial discussion. I would be glad to pay Emanuel Bragg for the ENORMOUS expense of the extra eight plaques that should be awarded at the Nationals this year.

John, this isn't about the walls in my classroom. FYI, I don't accept the High Law trophies when I win the overall. This is about trying to promote new shooters from the LEO/MIL community. I don't know how that extra $80/year for these plaques is going to make a difference to "recruit and retain members".

BTW, my hats off to the Area and Sectional/State matches that have continued to recognize these important categories. If any major match director decides that the expenses for the extra plaques is going to break the match's budget, contact me, and I'll gladly donate what I can!

As far as the equipment issues go, most of your LEO's and Military new shooters will start using their duty belts, but the High Law award shouldn't be an equipment issue. Whether we like to believe it or not, shooting is shooting. The equipment doesn't make that much of a difference. To prove this, I'm going to shoot one major this year in Limited with my duty gear and gun....we'll see which one.

[Tom Freeman]

I think getting rid of High Military and High LE was a mistake.

It has nothing to do with a plaque or ribbon.

For me, it has everything to do with being able to tell my commander that I did him proud and won Top Military. This is the same commander that I ask for a little time off now and again to train and compete.

I do not compete with a Beretta and the issue holster, nor do I plan to.

I can’t wait to tell my commander, "Sorry, no more plaques for the squadron case, Military and LE aren’t recognized anymore."

Before you say "Then go win some HOA Master Class Plaques," those mean almost nothing to your average GI. GM,M, A, B, C, D, plaques all look the same. Top Military/LE means something.

This years Colorado State IPSC, IDPA, IHMSA matches will all recognize top LE and Military, and hopefully always will.

Who has Emanuels address? I will write the check myself.

[Ron Ankeny]

Tom and Phil:

I for one appreciate and understand what you guys are saying. My state will be hosting a state match this year and I'll do everything I can to be sure the match organizers recognize the top LEO/Military shooter. In fact, I'll buy the awards myself just to be sure they look extra nice.

[spd522]

I have to side with the "what did it hurt to keep it" gang on this one.

I don't know of any match that couldn't scrape together another $10 for a High LE/Military plaque. It's hard getting these guys to come compete as it is. Why not keep a small token of gratitude when they do well?

The group I usually shoot with are LE or former LE. So there is also that friendly competition between the group to be Top Cop. Maybe a bit of ego, maybe a bit of pride, but it is still an incentive to do their best.

Think about it, wouldn't you rather have as many cops and soldiers out at the range shooting in their spare time as you can get? You know they are not getting that much trigger time at work. I feel better knowing they are well seasoned.

Craig

[Carmoney]

Interesting string, guys....I'm curious as to how many M and GM shooters in USPSA are full-time LEOs or active-duty military.

The Army team, of course....who are some of the others?

Mike

[kdj]

Hi guys,

I'm only ...

He's BAAAAAACK!

Vince Pinto,Jan 21 2004, 09:25 PM

Looks more like a revival of an old thred unfortunately

Kevin

[wgnoyes]

Looks more like a revival of an old thred unfortunately

Oh! You're right, I didn't notice the year. But the responses were new.

[Jim Norman]

I say that the Active Duty Military and Active Duty Police should be recognized IF the host club wants to. As long as we are not phrohibited from recognizing Special Catagories, I believe we can.

Its Freestyle!

Jim Norman

[davidwiz]

I have to disagree. It seems that people are saying that because xyz catagory isn't recogonized, that xyz shooter won't participate? That seems to me to indicate that xyz shooter is more concerned with getting a prize or a trophy than competing. Heck, why stop with military, law, super senior, etc.? Why not one for white, hetrosexual, piano playing males over the age of 50? Why not have a catagorey so everyone gets a trophy or a prize just for showing up? To me, once you start with these different catagories, you are in effect saying, "these people are more important that the rest of you".

-David

[Michael Brown]

I think eliminating this catagory blows, although I will admit that my motives are a little self-serving. Let me say first that I am a field officer not an admin officer or full time training officer. I never shot a pistol or a match until I became an LEO.

Ways this catagory has benefitted me:

1) Because of the politics involved in police work, I was not selected to be firearms instructor for my department (at that point this was a primary goal) until they realized how bad it looked that the three time state law enforcement champion wasn't an instructor.

2) When I won, I got recognition from the department which meant an occasional day to train and some input in how our officers are trained (this would be important to you too if your department still thought the weaver stance was cutting edge).

3) It felt good when somebody in church said they saw me in the paper for winning this match and they were glad officers took their own time to be better at things like this. If you are a professional and care about what you do (aka a real cop) you know how sensational that occasional sincere compliment feels.

Ways this catagory benefitted our local clubs:

1) Positive exposure for a fringe sport. Lets face it, a lot of people watch the 5:00 or 6:00 news which featured our regional championship and state championships and wanted to talk about police officers' involvement and the positive aspects of it. More people locally will be influenced by this than a bunch of re-runs of American Shooter, Shooting USA, and Shooting Gallary. Local news is usually not interested in high GM's or Super Squads. They are interested in what cops are doing.

2) After public recognition of the sport, several people came out to try the sport. We should be all about attracting new members. If each state attracts one new cop to be a USPSA member, every oh-so expensive extra trophy is paid for. Considering that my participation (I was among the first in my area and worked very hard to get officers involved) got over a dozen new cops involved in my area, I'd say this one trophy at a match was more than worth it. Also it wasn't just cops that came out when they saw this feature, it was non-competitive gun owners a well. Our local clubs used to run matches with 8-15 members. We are usually above 30 in the cold months now and over 50 in the spring. This kind of publicity works and should be encouraged.

I also have a personal belief (excuse my paranoid rant) that IPSC eliminated this catagory because in many other countries, officers are often discouraged from being armed or participating in what their liberals call "paramilitary training." Europeans in particular are conspicuously guilty of this. IPSC likely caved to a certian degree of political pressure just like the Olympics did in terms of firearms sports.

If this is so, I hope USPSA seeks to differentiate itself rather that ingratiate itself to IPSC. Rant off.

It seems sad that we eliminated this catagory for no good reason.

Michael Brown

[shred]

I doubt IPSC secretly caved to political pressure.. they are pretty public about the political pressures that cause the Metric target to be used exclusively at World Shoots.

I think they'd had it with trying to figure out what the definition of "LEO" was.. especially internationally. I'd be willing to bet that somebody abused the system somewhere.

But.. I see nothing different between a High-LEO award and say, a single-stack 1911 division. The point is to get more people in one group or other shooting, right? If the cost-to-me of an award I have no chance of winning is three minutes of my time at a major match. I can live with that.

Somebody should find a dozen "overweight slow white guys that want their own trophy" and ask a MD if you can have one. They might even go for it.

[rhino]

I'm usually indifferent to most category recognition or the lack of it. On the other hand, every time I hear about a match that is for LEO people only, it makes me not want to have any kind of special LEO category in USPSA/IPSC. If some of those matches would allow non-LEOs to participate, I'd feel better about having categories.