Equipment Elitism

[Patrick Sweeney]

I just got back (38 hours in transit) from WSXIII.  And I was the only US shooter in Modified.  There were as amny shooting Modified as Production.  And yet, it seems that to some shooters, the only class worthy of eny consideration is Open.  Some will cut Limited/Standard some slack, but only because TGO shoots it.

Hey, the world isn't just race guns.  I'm sure there are drag racers who sneer at anything except Top Fuel, but not everyone has one.  Or wants one.

If you think the other categories are for people who can't shoot Open, and went looking for some other place to beat up on other poor shooters, I've got a suggestion for you.  Try telling Dave Sevigny he can't shoot.  Or Jerry Miculek.  Track down Austen Stockbridge and tell him he shoots a Modified gun like your grandmother.  If the other categories are populated with failed Open shooters, pick up a gun like theirs and prove how bad they are.

This equipment elitism simply hurts our sport.  After hearing how "Open is it, and anyone who shoots another category is a failed Open shooter" and then pricing a race gun, who'd want to join us?

Yes, all honors to the shooter who posted the highest factor.  But don't think the others use different equipment because they can't cut it in Open.

[tightloop]

Well said

[jhgtyre]

It seems that TGO has been shooting limited.....

[JFD]

I fall into the category of "Doesn't want one".  I wouldn't mind moving from L-10 to Limited though with a nice hi-cap gun with major hosing capability for those days when I feel the urge.

I like to watch the Open shooters at work though, and I thank them for bringing the .38 Super back from near death in this country.

Around here I see no "attitude" from any division and half of our Open shooters end up bringing a Production or L-10 gun to most matches these days.

[shred]

Wierd.. I love shooting Open, but I also believe that shooting Limited or Revo or Production well is probably harder than an easy-triggered, dot-scoped, no-reload Open blaster.

[38supPat]

Oh common Open rules!!!!!!

Actually I don't much care what division you shoot, but I wish we went back to just having one. Whether its Open, Limited, Limited 10 or production.

Then one shooter takes all.

The part I hate now is, once upon a time you could see all the top shooters going head to head with similar equipment. Now they are spread across many.

[benos]

"The part I hate now is, once upon a time you could see all the top shooters going head to head with similar equipment. Now they are spread across many."

Yea, the problem is those damn Open guns divided up the sport, which spawned division upon division. I say dump ALL the divisions. No comps, five-inch barrels, forty-five ounce max weight, 10 rounds in the gun - let's shoot.

[BrianH]

I'll dump my open gun, as soon as they do that, Brian!

I'm still having visions of Travis slaughtering the field at Area 1 with ten rounds in his mags.....

[Ron Ankeny]

After buying a wide body Limited gun, and then screwing around in Open, I sometimes think I should dump them both and go back to my real gun, a 1911 in .45 auto. Admit it guys, we all admire the person who can rock and roll with a single stack.

[Flexmoney]

Let's not leave my tupperware out of the equation.

I am a card carrying member of the Single Stack Society (bet ya'll didn't know that )...but progress is progress.  2011's are a better mouse trap.

(Edited by Flexmoney at 8:13 pm on Sep. 24, 2002)

[eerw]

(thread drift)

Hey Pat..

What was the configuration of your modified gun...always thought that was a cool class...because all you had to do was fit the box...

what was the winning modified gun????

(Edited by eerw at 8:57 pm on Sep. 24, 2002)

[joshua]

I shoot open class but I do have a limited gun that I've been wanting to use in a match.  I like the idea of open class due to similarity with formula 1 type racing except for the limitation of mag length then anything can be applied.  Limited class is also fun due to it's practicallity in the real handgun world, yes if put in a situation that I may need a handgun for defense I would certainly pick my limited gun because it's the best practical pistol I have.  Anyway, I have the utmost respect to the revo man J.Miculek and to all the top dogs in each division and type of firearms they shoot.  I may beat J.Miculek with my open gun when he shoots his revo, I'm sure he will whoop my butt if he picks up his wife's open gun and dang sure he'll leave me in the dust if I decide to compete with my revo.  That dude is simply amazing with a revo. josh

[Mo Zee]

I am not 100% sure on this so dont quote me.....

Austin was shooting an sti frame and slide. I think a 6 port hybrid comp with a firepoint/optima2000. There is nothing more than that....

Thanx

[Patrick Sweeney]

Austen was in my squad, and he shot just that setup.  The hybrid barrel he and the rest of the SA team used were 6 port, set up for iron sights, and with Optima/Firepoint.  All Modified guns except the CZs are angled to fit the box.

What Modified is, is a class where you have to shoot like an Open gun, but reload like a Standard gun.  STI's get 17 in a mag, Para and CZ get 18.

Soapbox mode;

The addition of extra Divisions is simply a realization that we have been hoist by our own petard.  The origins of the sport were that no differentiation was to be made between equipment, so we could find out what worked.  What we found out was that a hi-cap Open gun worked best.  Indeed, it worked so well that no others need apply.  

If we were to make the sport solely heads up, there would be only Open shooters, and very few of them.  If we want large participation, we need to recognise that equipment matters, and new shooters know it.  Eliminate equipment divisions and the swarms of L-10, production and even Limited shooters will go some place else.

Don't sneer at someone because they don't shoot a "real" equipment division, assess their performance vis-a-vis the limits of the tool they have selected.

Off the soapbox.

[Shipster]

RIGHT ON Patrick.  If I get beat in a match I want it to be because the shooter beat me and NOT that his equipment gave him the winning edge.

[BrianH]

You're right on, Patrick, ORIGIONALLY; however you must remember (what I think was) the primary reason all these divisions started falling out of the sky, which was the same reason most matches abandoned prize tables....the constant whine  "I NEVER WIN!!!! I'M QUITTING!!!!"  I think that, plus the IDPA, got the powers-that-be frightened into believing we need to start rewarding more shooters for lesser performances, or we won't be able to grow the membership.

There are exceptions, but TGO is gonna kick axe with the worst piece of crap you put in his hands.  Extra-ordinary skill doesn't factor into the arguement.

[TDean]

Lisa Munson said to me..."Shooting a Limited gun is the  martial art of shooting"  I liked that.

It reminds us of the origins of the sport.  There is no doubt that shooting iron-sights takes more skill than a red-dot.  Travis said it well when he wrote "open division eliminates the genetical advantage that great Limited shooters have" (or something like that, I can't find his exact words cause he deleted all his previous posts! )

I like iron sights.

[Patrick Sweeney]

We aren't the only sport to deal with this (far from it) and will not be the last.  Just because you race a motorcycle with a 500cc engine instead of a 750, should your performance be measured against the 750cc rider?  Or other 500cc riders?

What we must do is keep watch over and prevetn the introduction of meaningless equipment divisions (SAA IPSC, double barrel 3-gun, etc.) and make sure the divisions we have are real equipment differences.  Open and Limited?  You bet.  The equipment difference is real.  Split Production between Glock & XD and the SA/DA guns?  No, for the difference isn't real.  (If it is, then Glock and XD get shoved into Limited or L-10.)

[Julien Boit]

All the current divisions must remains.

Each shooter must compete with the equipement he choose and not because others are using it.

Hats off for revolver shooters and production shooters.

Ever fired a 50 yards steel with a DA pistol at the first shot ?

Here in France, the production hadn't started yet, and it's too bad, it's the only way to attract more shooters .

Modified looks good too, Open is Fun and I LOVE standard (limited).

Choose your division and have fun, that's the only important thing

DVC

Julien

[THS]

We need the divisions to seperate some advantages equipment gives you...  Look at how easy it is to shoot a dot on poppers at 50 yards versus irons..... 'Nuff said.

L10 seems like a poorly thought out thing, to my un-informed eyes.  I see Bill Schwab shooting a SS 1911 45 against a person who will remain nameless using an STI long and heavy .40 with 140mm mags "downloaded."  Fair? No way, even when Bill wins, he does so through greater challenges.  Esecially when I count the STI shooter firing 12 from a single location so he doesn't have a standing re-load.  We should drop L10, and create SS, Prod Major and Prod Minor ?  This gets the post-ban 10 round mag shooter in the game, rewards power (remember DVC) in production, and breathes life into SS as well.

I have an STI, and have grown a stable of glocks too.  I like the reliability of the glocks, and I look forward to the time when I reach my limited goal, and can shoot my G22 in production, from the cheapest UM plastic holster I can buy.

Elitist's are the reason I like to work my butt off.  Winning with a rusty gun I had to cobble togther myself to save money is an awesome feeling.  I did a few times in my first IPSC adventure, and I'm looking forward to doing it again, hopefully SOON.

Tom

(Edited by THS at 10:25 am on Sep. 26, 2002)

[BSeevers]

If we make SS how long will it take somebody to make a heavy SS frame? With a tung guiderod, heavy slide, tung barrel. It probably would be heavier than a STI/SV

The regular single stacker could also add all of these items except heavy frame now. Food for thought.

[eerw]

---

Quote: from BSeevers on 9:53 am on Sep. 26, 2002

If we make SS how long will it take somebody to make a heavy SS frame? With a tung guiderod, heavy slide, tung barrel. It probably would be heavier than a STI/SV

The regular single stacker could also add all of these items except heavy frame now. Food for thought.

---

You can already....SA Operator..would be L10 legal..heavy slide, full length duscover and rail...add bull barrel. tungsten rod and a magwell...you got heavy metal..

It seems people always will look for the edge to win..

The move to divisions I think was a good one..as technology moved ahead...to shoot this sport head to head..the open gun is the best tool to win...but this is not everyone cup of tea..both financially or desire...For a sport to grow..you need well defined divisions for which people to participate..To think one division is better than another seems like a waste of time..

[THS]

The biggest advantage in the S_S vs SS isn't in the weight.  It is in the time to perform standing reloads.  The smooth taper designed into  the S_I mag, plus the bigger hole, makes them nearly a half a second faster, for me, than I was with a Para and a GunCraft well.  I dont even want to tell how much difference ther was compared to my SS with an S&A Magwell.

Todd has commented a few times about the loss of match points he sees using the Para in production, given the more abrupt taper and square design of the para mag.  The difference is more telling in the SS vs Tapered wide-body mag comparison.

Tom

[BSeevers]

I didn't know about that SA Operator. Guess I'll have to cancel the order to the forge for the 501 frames

I understand the funnel advantage and agree its faster in general. I would think at high levels its .15-.20 per reload max. I know that's a lot over 25 or so reloads. I still think a true Master with a SS would pound most mortals in a match. At higher levels it would make a difference but at least you could shoot 2 divisions with the STI/SVI/Para!

When you are talking production though, I figure Todd was talking in general as he may have slowed down but was probabely still the fastest reloader in production. Just backs up that its the shooter not the gun.

I feel no disavantage with my Sig except it has no magpad. It pinches my hand and when you are reloading 5 times more than the racers, it can bite you back. I would love to shoot it more if I could just put a 3mm piece of rubber on the mags. When I started in this it was very common to see people bleeding after a run. That was in the "combat" days. We buy magpads now

I hate to have to buy the "gamer" Para LDA to shoot production. Its a lot better than my Sig at this point. God forbid a Glock. (blatent attempt to cajole my buddies)

[cpty1]

Hey, hey...don't be talking bad about them Glocks.