Equipment Elitism

[BSeevers]

Chris

You shoot a Glock?

[Flexmoney]

heeeeeyyyyyyy!!!!

That plastic might come in handi this weekend (should be clear weather by Sunday).  

[Patrick Sweeney]

The S_I vs. SS is a perfect case, as is the suggestion of Prod Major and Prod Minor.

Is the fat gun downloaded an advantage over the SS?  Do not assume that because lots of big dogs do it that it is an advantage.  (The latin is "post hoc, ergo propter hoc", after therefore because of)

Why would they use a fat frame in Limited 10?  Because they use fat frames in Open, and don't want to spend time switching.  TGO told me he much prefers the SS to the fat frame, and uses the big one only when he needs the capacity.

Yes, a heavy metal frame and slide combo would be an advantage.  But it does so for fat and skinny frames alike.

As for Major/Minor Production, the big difference between Production and the rest is the trigger.  Major Produciton includes how many guns?  Sigs and Berettas in .357 and .40 are two.  And both are available in 9mm.  And the 40 can be downloaded.  So, splitting Production does not separate firearms with a real distinction.  Keeping Prod Minor allows newbies with 9mm's to shoot S&B ammo in a match and get hooked.

[THS]

Patrick,

Production also includes all the Glocks.  (I swore them off in 93, did not like the grip angle, yet today I own 4.  The reason: They function every time, something my S_I Can't claim)  Count the number of LE agencies using the G2223, and I see a rather large pool of people who can put the trigger time to good use.  (Future members?)  Many I've shot with are using a duty configuration, weapon and ammo, and they get scored exactly like the local gamer using a 9mm loaded as light as possible.  Hardly seems fair.

Prod minor would still be for those with the 9mm Blazer, S&B, surplus ammo.

In the end I don't care what you, or anyone else, shoot; I'm still at the level of working hard not to beat myself and shoot to my skill level for 6 stages an any given day.  Where I fall out on the results page is only for bragging rights amongst my friends.

This is supposed to be fun, and for me at least, it still is.

Tom

[Duane Thomas]

"When you are talking production though, I figure Todd was talking in general as he may have slowed down but was probabely still the fastest reloader in production."

In Production, not having a mag funnel on a Para makes an immense difference. Out at the Factory Nats, Todd was able to get the mag into the gun without hanging up MOST of the time. When you consider he probably has the consistently fastest reload in the game, watching this guy have the mag fail go go into the gun will give you some idea of the difficulty level of speedloading a mag funnelless Para. The top of the Para mag is very squared off and blocky; so is the mag well. TJ says speedloading a Para without a mag funnel is like "sticking a square peg into a round hole" and estimates lack of a mag funnel on his Para P16-40 LDA Limited cost him 50 match points at the Factory Nats.

[bigsaxdog]

i'm kinda new to this sport, been at it about a year. i love reading the  "equipment race" threads, cause' i still can't figure it all out ! i got a 1911 single stack parts gun that  i shoot with wilson 8 rounders. that's still one more round than john browning invented!! how come there isn't a stock 1911 division in all this? my gun with the L10 long mags is plain stupid, and probably dangerous trying to get it out of the holster. i gotta go to some of the single stack shoots! all the gizmo's on all the "dark side" guns really leaves me cold, and really detracts from the skill(Maybe that's a little over the top!) i just get tired of being in squads with guys running 30 rd. race guns, not even having to drop a mag. i thought this sport was inspired by combat shooting, try that gun in Afganistan! maybe someone of you more experienced guys can explain all this stuff to me!!!

[j1b]

I'm with Brian E.

TGO probably is too.

All I know is that the equipment doesn't matter. Look at the history, the different divisions at different matches, the importance of an open championship vs limited vs whatever - they're all important to the guys that win them and oh by the way - the same guys win all of them.

I used to only shoot open. Loved it. Now all I shoot is limited. Love it even more. And I know that if I reach my LOHF with limited then all it takes is a few practice rounds of open and I'd be in the same place. In the end it all works out.

JB

[John Thompson]

IMHO modified division is where the practical open guns are and that is what was original intended by idea of improving equipment.

Todays open guns are about as practical as a letter opener in a knife fight.  How can an open shooter say he is the ultimate shooter when he dosen't have to aim, work the recoil, or relaod a magazine into a magwell smaller than the Gand Canyon?

[MBneACP]

Interesting thread (thanxs, Patrick!).

Me, I don't have a clue. I know my life has gotten simpler since I abandoned hi-caps and went back to a .45 SS, but that's maybe because I'm old. [quick aside...have been screwing around with the new Kimber USA Shooting commemorative .45, which I spec'ed for Kimber...have been very pleased so far with slide-mounted extractor; no malfunctions at all...although Massad A. reports several malfunctions on his in a match situation...let lotsa people use it in last week's NY media seminar, and it didn't do anything untoward..back to main thread] OTOH, I've advised shooters looking to get into L-10 to get an STI Edge with 10-rounders, because I still believe it's the best out of the box shooter being made today.

What we need to do is have a sit-down between all the pistol disciplines and figure out what we're really doing.

Trying to arrange such a thing is like negotiating treaties with Banana Republics! I speak from experience.

Michael B

[tightloop]

MBneACP

You mean they still allow pistols in New York...I thought Hillary would have eliminated all those evil tools by now.

[38supPat]

---

Quote: from John Thompson on 4:43 pm on Sep. 30, 2002

IMHO modified division is where the practical open guns are and that is what was original intended by idea of improving equipment.

Todays open guns are about as practical as a letter opener in a knife fight.  How can an open shooter say he is the ultimate shooter when he dosen't have to aim, work the recoil, or relaod a magazine into a magwell smaller than the Gand Canyon?

---

Todays Limited guns aren't much better, try packing a fifty something oz Limited gun for a day, heavy wide frame and all. Same mag wells, no recoil, and since most IPSC stages are at arms length anyway (I could probably lay that on Limited shooters since it was a lot of their complaining about "open friendly" courses of fire that caused the point blank syndrome) The reality is the IPSC/USPSA is a sport like many others, when I race my car, I'm running in stock class but its fun to watch the Mod cars go through. F1 cars aren't very practical either, (where would you stick the groceries and child seat?) but I know lots of people that get up every Sun. morning to watch it.

I think a lot of the resentment Open shooters feel against Limited/Production etc. stems from the constant complaining we hear..."This course is Open friendly"; "Its not fair they didn't have to reload"; "Those shots are too hard only an Open shooter can hit that"

With the way the divisions work now, it doesn't matter, you're not competing against us anyhow. If you can't hit a hard target with your Limited gun and another Limited shooter can...thats not our problem, you only shoot against other Limited shooters.

I personaly love how Limited shooters will pay almost the same amount for a top limited/Limited 10 gun, with all the same parts as an Open gun, then go on about how they don't shoot open because the guns aren't reliable or are too fussy. search this forum and see how many threads there are about broken Iron sights, I've seen a number.

As for taking it to Afganistan, its open carry over there...damn right I'd like to take my open gun...hmm shoots flat and accurate to 100m, nearly 30rnd mag, relaods another 30rnd mag quicker than anything else, reliable as hell, has a bark that'll scare the Taliban into submission, what else short of an M4 would be as useful?

I think Open gets picked on more lately.

In the end, as Jack says, the equipment is irrelevant, each has a skill set required to get the most out of it, right Ron?

Why don't we all just shoot what we want and leave the other classes alone.

Good stage design is everything.

(Edited by Pat Harrison at 12:55 pm on Oct. 1, 2002)

[jhgtyre]

---

Pat Harrison wrote: Why don't we all just shoot what we want and leave the other classes alone.

Good stage design is everything.

---

Well put!

-jhgtyre

[Ron Ankeny]

Yeah, what Pat said. BTW, most courses of fire around here are Limited gun in your face friendly. There are only 3-4 Open shooters in the whole state.

I shoot my Limited gun the best. I love rocking and rolling with a .45 in a single stack. But above all else, I am moving to Open because it is just so intense to shoot at really high speeds. Heck, I like them all.

Dammit, where's the dot...? There it is...

(Edited by Ron Ankeny at 2:58 pm on Oct. 1, 2002)

(Edited by Ron Ankeny at 8:04 pm on Oct. 1, 2002)

[Duane Thomas]

I love my .45 SS. It makes a lot of sense to me that I should use as my match gun the same one I carry every day. Why waste all that great practice time and match experience on something else? At the same time I recognize the hot medium bore, high cap, dot sighted comp guns as probably the ultimate handheld shooting machines, and one day I'd love to have one. Though I will admit the tales of "Super elbow" from dedicated Open shooters scare me.

(Edited by Duane Thomas at 4:38 pm on Oct. 4, 2002)

[j1b]

Pat

I can't think of a better way to put it.

In the end one would think that as long as there is a match and I have a gun to shoot in it then who cares what class I shoot or what heater I pick up. I get to shoot - I get to have fun - what else matters?

In many, many, many posts I have lamented getting out of the sport for as long as I have. All I know is that when I step up to the line, I will simply be ecstatic to be there.

Your post was perfect.

JB

[38supPat]

Sorry 'bout the rant and thanks for the comments, I guess my point is one of the problems facing the sport right now is the fighting between divisions...Whos more practical? (none its a game), Who should get more trophies, prize table pics, recognition? Who should the course be designed around? (I believe a properly designed course will allow any division to find its own 'best' way...that being said, as long as the round count doesn't get too high who cares where a revolver, Limited, Limited 10 gun has to reload, they only compete in class so if a limited 10 has to reload 4 times and a Limited once....it doesn't matter, they don't compete against one another)

We need to just shoot the best we can in our class and ignore the scores of the others.

Watch an American LeMans race, many classes all on the track at once and no grief, we should strive to be that well behaved.

[Mark Perez]

---

Quote: from benos on 4:59 pm on Sep. 24, 2002

"The part I hate now is, once upon a time you could see all the top shooters going head to head with similar equipment. Now they are spread across many."

Yea, the problem is those damn Open guns divided up the sport, which spawned division upon division. I say dump ALL the divisions. No comps,

five-inch barrels, forty-five ounce max weight, 10 rounds in the gun

- let's shoot.

---

thread drift on

Brian

you just described IDPA ESP

thread drift off

[bigsaxdog]

i'm still not gettin' it! shot a match today(stunk up the first half, then got passable), and some of the differences are interesting. just can't get over the hi-cap to standard 7/8 rnd. 1911 thing. obviously, operator skill can overcome the capacity question(this one older fella, Ralph, spanked everybody pretty good with a standard 1911), but the deck is pretty loaded. it just doesn't seem right when it is admitted that gizmos are better and make the scores uneven. i guess i'm commenting more on the human side of this(now the sh@@!% is getting deep!) than the actual sport thing. we just seem to need more stuff, and focus on that rather than the actual essence of the act, and acquiring the skills needed. if a gizmo makes it easier, than we all want it! just got a shotgun for 3-gun stuff. try being competitive in that without one of those speed spoons on your 1100(or even without an 1100) and some of the california comp ammo holders to load out of. have had a vepr ak, instead of an ar, cause' the tremendous amount of ar gizmos and the $$$$ turned me off. check out some of the russian stuff available for ak's, some of the quality is tremendous, and the price is half or less than our stuff(just cause' someone still is making $$$), yet the same essence is there. man, i'm starting to confuse even myself here.  it's just not sporting to call this ipsc a sport, but not have a level field. i really gotta say, i don't much care for the scores anyways, just like to go out and shoot and have fun, just wanted to put in my 2 cents worth about how someone fairly new to it all percieves. sometimes people get in so deep, they can't see the forest for all the trees. (and i may be a newbie, and the racey guys may be faster, but i get alot of A's, and that's where it's at!!!)

[38supPat]

It is a level field inside each division. Don't compare your SS 1911 to a hicap Limited or an Open gun, you fit in Limited 10 and its an even field. Or shoot production.

Its like driving your stationwagon on the track and complaining that F1 cars are too fast for you, ever notice that Nascars dont run against  CART cars on the same track. But even if you watch ALMS (American LeMans Series) where they have 3 or 4 classes of cars on the track at the same time, there is no whining, the slower cars pull over and let the faster ones pass, and worry about the race in their own class, no whining.

[Mistral404]

Heck, I am new to this sport.  I shoot a single stack in L10.  It is fine for me.  There is some competition but around here the overwhelming choice in Limited.  Ok.  Have I thought about investing in a HI-Cap Gun and equipment -sure but that would be about $3000 to play with those boys and girls.  Would it bring me more fun-nope.

My feeling is the more divisions the better.  Keep the playing field as level as possible within those divisions.  But if you're carping about not being competitive in the equipment war-stop it.  If you're complaining about too many divisions stop it.  The idea here should be one of inclusiveness not exclusion.  Get people involve at whatever level they feel comfortable at.  Hand out as many awards to as many people as possible.  Positive reinfocement is a powerful motivating thing.

If you get a chance read a book by Buck Rogers of IBM, I think it is called Big Blue or the IBM Way.  He found out that rewarding many people was more productive than just rewarding the top few.  You want the sport to grow-than adapt to the environment or perish.

Bottom line for me is recognition within the classification I am in.  

[JFD]

As a new USPSA shooter I personally like the current divisions and see no need for more.

If a guy is using a loaded down Limited gun in L-10 against my sort-of stock SS, so what?  He's still got 10 round mags and I have a chance to beat up on him with superior shooting skill and thinking (in theory anyway).

I like to see how I compare to Open and Limited shooters in the final results, but realize that I'm not in the same division and try to keep things in perspective.

Whenever I hear "level playing field" I get worried.  It's usually someone who doesn't have a clue that it's really about SKILL.  You can buy all the goodies you want, but without the skill, you will suck.  If USPSA was to issue a $3000 race gun with every membership card, there would just be a lot of crappy shooters in Open class.  

I've seen a lot of master class Open/Limited shooters grab a Production or L-10 gun for a day and still win or come close to taking the overall win with what is normally a bone stock gun.  They'd kick your butt if USPSA was as level and boring as IROC racing, leaving most of the "level the playing field" folks stuck with looking in the mirror to find the real source of the problem.

Personally I love L-10.  Feels like total freedom to me compared to the strangulation of IDPA.  I'll be strapping on a Ghost holster next week, finally getting rid of my Wilson Practical holster I carried over from IDPA.

[j1b]

Bigsax

Fact of the matter is if you watch the few who can actually play this game you will see that it really doesn't matter.

Give Travis Tomasie any gun and I'd lay some cash down on him agains't dang near anybody. I went through the phase of "better, better and more better" and I spent the cash to get there. Somehow my scores didn't get much better - until I started practicing . . . .

Eventually you have to realize that when you learn the mechanics of shooting this game - the mechanics of the gun really start to matter less.

People have been complaining about the equipment race for years in this sport. Personally I can't see why it matters. I used to have access to almost anything I wanted equipment wise. Today is almost the complete opposite. Yet today I could really care less. I have witnessed many friends go down this path - and as a member of this forum I see you as a friend. Being new to the sport I would simply hate to see you get wrapped up in such an inconsiquential(SP) piece of the game

JB

[Steve Anderson]

I sold guitars for awhile in my musician days, and one day as I was going to to the john for a sit-down, one of the local hot shots walked in, grabbed a guitar off the wall and plugged in.

As I was walking to the john, I didn't see what gtr or amp he chose, but could hear him playing loud and clear.

I thought it must be the Jeff Beck strat($1799) through the Fender twin amp ($999)...those crisp highs and just enough grit in the tone....Nope. Mexican made Fender squier ($149) through whatever Christmas promo amp we had for $99.

Find a gun (TOOL) that works, and learn to shoot it.

SA

(BTW, if you ever see Frank Harrison playing somewhere around Ohio...GO. He's good. real good. Even if you're in the john. )

[jkmccoy]

OK, this is pretty serious thread drift, but I've got to add my $0.02 (and I'm trying hard to quit being a "gatherer"). (A "gleaner" I could take, but a "gatherer"?)

There is no question that REALLY talented people (in any field) are still really talented with any equipment. But many of us will never win the nationals (not really a defeatist attitude, many people don't have the physical/mental capabilities to do it). There are basic differences in capabilities (especially physical). (It was a very sad day when I realized that I would never be an Olympic weightlifter. I do not have the body shape to be successful in that sport.)

For the vast majority of us who are floundering around in the lower classes - equipment may be VERY important to our success. It should not be important to our enjoyment, but it may be important to success.

I agree that if your goal is to be the best you can possibly be AND you are willing to work towards that goal you should pick equipment that works for you and learn to use it. But, if you just want to practice occasionally and shoot your local club match every month and have a good time and sometimes win your class - the best possible equipment will be a significant advantage.

Cheers,

[Flexmoney]

Kelly,

I just couldn't disagree more...on many levels.