6 Procedurals?

[Stevec717]

Last weekend I set a USPSA match with a Qualifier stage "High Standards". Two strings of fire at 3 metric targets. From 20 yds- 2 shots each freestyle, mandatory reload, then 2 shots each strong hand only.

Move up to 15 yds for second string. 2 shots each freestyle, mandatory reload then 2 shots each weak hand only.

Got it?

So I had a great first string and I thought a great second string. But when I finished the RO said " I have to give you 6 procedurals". Now, I get them from time to time and I usually know immediately what I did. But I just didn't get it. So- on weak hand only (my left hand shooting) my "Index point" for my free hand is on chest over left pectoral. Think- Pledge of Allegiance. He said I can't have my hand there. One penalty per shot taken. I was in disbelief. I have shot like this (it is my natural index point) at many matches and never called out. I'm fairly new so I assume an RO must know the rules better than me- right? So I asked - exactly where can I put my hand on my chest? He says midline. So it sounds official and I sulk away having ruined an otherwise good qualifier. (I know now I probably should have gotten the match director involved, but that's hindsight)

So when I got home I looked it up to understand what I had done better and not ever do it again. The rule seems to be 10.2.8.2. -

10.2.8 If a course of fire stipulates shooting strong or weak hand only, a competitor will not be penalized for using the other hand (i.e. the other arm from the shoulder to the hand) to disengage an external safety, to reload or to correct a malfunction. However, the competitor will be issued one procedural penalty per shot fired while:

10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots;

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting arm while firing shots;

10.2.8.3 Using the other hand on a barricade or another prop to increase stability while firing shots.

So, I would have to be deemed "using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist, or shooting arm while firing shots." I just don't see that applying to what I was doing. Of course, I'm biased.

What say you? Should I have protested? (This is all moot now as scores are final)

I guess the real question is - do I try to change my position for this type of fire, or do I stick with it and be ready to defend it?

Thx

Still learning

Steve

[frgood]

'Pledge of allegiance' pose is not supporting the arm in my book. But I will be curious to what others find. Mind you, I am under the impression that a DQ requires the RO to cite the rule. but that is not germane to this conversation

Edited March 8, 2016 by frgood

[motosapiens]

lots of people (including me) put their hand on their chest when shooting. what you can't do is touch your arm or probably shoulder. Are you sure you weren't touching your shoulder? If not, I believe the RO made a mistake.

Besides educating the RO, you might also practice to put your hand more in the sternum area, or make a fist like I do, so it's clearly not touching your other arm.

Edited March 8, 2016 by motosapiens

[Youngeyes]

In answer to your question of whether you should have protested....If you do not understand a ruling, always ask the RO to explain the rule from the book. If they can't, or you disagree, then it's time for a higher authority.

[GrumpyOne]

lots of people (including me) put their hand on their chest when shooting. what you can't do is touch your arm or probably shoulder. Are you sure you weren't touching your shoulder? If not, I believe the RO made a mistake.

Besides educating the RO, you might also practice to put your hand more in the sternum area, or make a fist like I do, so it's clearly not touching your other arm.

If he wasn't supporting his shoulder, wrist, or arm, the RO was wrong. The rule states "supporting" the shooting appendage...not touching it.

[CZinSC]

If your hand was indeed in the "pledge of allegiance" pose, than no, you did nothing wrong. If you were touching your shoulder/bicep then no, you were at fault.

But for the RO to make an arbitrary "it's your midline"? that is completely bogus.

Next time...Politely ask to be shown the rule. If he cannot SHOW you the rule in the rulebook, then he has no basis for the call.

There are lots of people out there that:

1 - Have no idea what they are doing and make stuff up according to what they think they rule should be

2 - RO's that were certified when JMB invented the 1911 and haven't cracked open a rule book since. They still make rulings based on what the rules were when most of us were still in short pants. Not saying that is what happened here, but i have seen it from time to time.

[MarkS_A18138]

Bad call by RO!

[Sarge]

There are lots of people out there that:

1 - Have no idea what they are doing and make stuff up according to what they think they rule should be

2 - RO's that were certified when JMB invented the 1911 and haven't cracked open a rule book since. They still make rulings based on what the rules were when most of us were still in short pants. Not saying that is what happened here, but i have seen it from time to time.

^^^THIS^^^

RO would practically need to stand in front of you to tell for sure. Ask him to do that next time!

[Corey]

Sounds like you got hosed on that one. I make a fist with my "other" hand when shooting SHO/WHO and put it on my chest/pectoral area, usually a little closer to the collar bone, just what feels normal.

[Ed K]

I don't see any procedurals in the OP.

As others have said, ask him/her to cite the rule for you. If you don't have 1 already, grab a hard copy of the rules somewhere and keep it in your bag.

[GrumpyOne]

I don't see any procedurals in the OP.

As others have said, ask him/her to cite the rule for you. If you don't have 1 already, grab a hard copy of the rules somewhere and keep it in your bag.

Everyone has a smart phone anymore...download a copy to your phone.

[Bkreutz]

I don't see any procedurals in the OP.

As others have said, ask him/her to cite the rule for you. If you don't have 1 already, grab a hard copy of the rules somewhere and keep it in your bag.

Everyone has a smart phone anymore...download a copy to your phone.

I have a copy on my notepad (I can't read the print when viewed on a phone )

Edited March 8, 2016 by Bkreutz

[davsco]

i had a MD politely caution me i was breaking uspsa rules when i happened to have a mag in my hand airgunning with it during a stage walkthru.

that said, we're all volunteers in this game, most of us have real fulltime jobs,and a mistake here and there is just going to happen. where i've heard some weird or unbelievable rules thrown down, i have gone thru the rule book and corrected the proclaimer of those rules, or in some cases, learned something new.

[ChuckS]

i had a MD politely caution me i was breaking uspsa rules when i happened to have a mag in my hand airgunning with it during a stage walkthru.

that said, we're all volunteers in this game, most of us have real fulltime jobs,and a mistake here and there is just going to happen. where i've heard some weird or unbelievable rules thrown down, i have gone thru the rule book and corrected the proclaimer of those rules, or in some cases, learned something new.

Politely ask to see the rule in the current book. He was right using the 2004 rulebook. 2014, not so much. Everybody can learn at times like this!

[teros135]

He must have been confused. Thought it was IPSC.

[Sarge]

i had a MD politely caution me i was breaking uspsa rules when i happened to have a mag in my hand airgunning with it during a stage walkthru.

that said, we're all volunteers in this game, most of us have real fulltime jobs,and a mistake here and there is just going to happen. where i've heard some weird or unbelievable rules thrown down, i have gone thru the rule book and corrected the proclaimer of those rules, or in some cases, learned something new.

He was politely wrong.

[CZinSC]

He was wrong, but if you asked him to show you the rule, i'm willing to bet he would cite:

8.7.2 Competitors are prohibited from using any guns or gun replicas as sighting aids while conducting their inspection (“walkthrough”) of a course of fire. Violations will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence (also see Rule 10.5.1).

Big difference between "gun or gun replica" and a magazine, but i'm sure an argument would ensue regardless!

As others have said, IPSC is different. A towel is considered a sighting aid....just ask Blake!

[nahanshew89]

If what you say is accurate, you got hosed.

[davsco]

Big difference between "gun or gun replica" and a magazine, but i'm sure an argument would ensue regardless!

nah i read him the rule at the next match and he just remembered it wrong and apologized. if he had threatened me with a procedural or the like i'd be a little upset but he was just trying to keep me out of trouble.

[Erttactics]

Most people I know shoot weak hand in the manner described by the OP, myself included. Seems like a bad call to me

[DagoRed]

When I read 8.7.2 I wish I had a different type of job, I'd get a badass tattoo on my hand so it looked like a 1911.

I have been questioned and seen other people ask questions. There's one guy I've seen question quite a few times. He's right occasionally. Never hurts to try. I gave my rule book to a new guy and can't find where to buy another. I like having it in my bag

Red

[BeerBaron]

When I read 8.7.2 I wish I had a different type of job, I'd get a badass tattoo on my hand so it looked like a 1911.

I have been questioned and seen other people ask questions. There's one guy I've seen question quite a few times. He's right occasionally. Never hurts to try. I gave my rule book to a new guy and can't find where to buy another. I like having it in my bag

Red

lol, get a notch cut out of right thumb and use it as a rear site and use left pinky as a front site.

[Absocold]

If your body was square to the targets, you were fine. If your body was turned about 30 degrees or more to the left then a bracing call starts to be more justified the more you're turned.

If that sounds weird, stand up and try it. Shooting left handed with right at "pledge of allegiance", the further you turn your body to the left, the more likely your non-shooting fingers will brace your shooting arm.

When I'm training shooters for competitive bullseye pistol, I teach them to put their offhand in their pocket. When done correctly, not only does it act as another body support, it also absolutely prevents bracing calls. There's no time to stick your hand in your pocket during action pistol but you get the point.