National attendees - what ya think?

[davaodoc]

I am an IPSC shooter, this was my first US Nationals, my first time shooting USPSA and my first time shooting USPSA production. I have shot Austalasia, Worldshoot and several level 3 matches worldwide.

My observations:

The RO's are among the most friendly, helpful and down to earth guys I have come across (compared to some of the RO's I've encountered in Worldshoot)

The stages were practical, offered a lot of shooting options and gave a good balance of DVC (speed, power and accuracy). The target distances were also more practical.

There were lots of cold water in each stage available to both shooters and ROs alike.

Will I be back next year? You bet.

[Jadeslade]

This was not my first Nationals. I have been to PASA, Tulsa and MT.

The sign up process of Open/Production was the worse I have ever seen. You would think that the National staff could have made suggestions to improve that process. One solid line forever and ever. That was very poor planning on the part of the National staff.

The awards started late. Why can't they start on time. In the business world, meetings start on time. It is really an insult not to be able to adhere to a schedule. The food pretty much -- was not very good.

The calling of names for the prize table was pretty lame. Terrible communication between the main room and prize table staff. It was nice that the folks calling names were good natured. Area 2 was way more organized in this regard.

The vendor tent is going the way of the big SUVs. Perhaps there needs to be a re-evaluation of how USPSA manages its vendors. It is way too expensive for vendors to come and set up a tent.

The range was ok. I have shot in the desert many times and it met expectations for wind and dust. No big deal here.

The stages were typical of the old fashion designers. Little itty bitty shooting areas. Three steps shoot, three steps shoot, four steps. Gee Whiz. It is like the designers are used to small berms with no real movement. I am not talking about the runners you can get at A2 or High Desert Classic but for goodness sake, use the berm! If Tulsa was subjected to poor stage layouts, they have been displaced by this years Nationals. Maybe it is time for a complete turnover of staff doing the stage designs and approvals. Bring in fresh new blood with new ideas on how to actually maximize the use of the berms.

The stages should test a shooters ability on all aspects of shooting. There should have been a standards or at least some weak or strong hand stuff.

I did not mind the no shoots so much. The target distances and arrays left a lot to be desired. What is with the ports that require you to squat somewhat. Were there three stages that most shooters had to bend their legs, not to a squat but kind of half way between a full squat and an upright stance. How is this a test of shooting?

Was there a stage with 11 DQs? Something is seriously wrong here! With the exception of that stage, the ROs did a good job.

What was with not having the Palm scoring system? Gee Whiz, we could get to at least the 1990s with regards to technology.

Ok, so I saw numerous opportunities for improvement and I know it is way easier to complain than it is to create or execute. But for goodness sake, this is not the first time Nationals has been held, the senior management of the National staff should be held accountable to improve the process rather than just let it be marginal.

All in all, it was ok, the local folks did a great job of hosting the event. There is significant room for improvement with the stuff out of the control of the local staff.

Yeah- nice post. Sums up a lot. A2 has been better the last few years than Nationals. Maybe this is the place that can develop. Everything gets old after a while. But still...There seemed to be no running this year. Position change only. Good insight. The desert is the desert.

[Carmoney]

Having the match near Las Vegas was a great idea, and in my opinion added a tremendous appeal to the event--not only can you shoot a premiere match but you are also in a premiere destination city with tons of stuff to do (whether or not you're a gambler)! I thought the staff did a great job overall, the stats were handled quickly and efficiently, and I thought the overall administration of the match was excellent.

On the downside, the stages were disappointing. The facilities were more than adequate to set up interesting and imaginative "nationals-quality" stages--and I'm not talking about the kind of stuff you can only do with a bunch of expensive gimmickry. It just felt like the stage designers were tired of thinking up new stuff. The previous poster who referred to them as mostly "shuffle" stages had it exactly right--and shuffling around is not my idea of freestyle, not my idea of good USPSA stage design, and not my idea of fun. Anyway, you get my point.

One other big negative for me--during the awards distribution following the L/L10/R event, I was really distracted by the constant din of people chatting loudly all across the back of the room, while speakers were on the podium trying to talk. I thought it was really disrespectful to the speakers, and everyone who was trying to listen.

All that said, I had a great time at this year's event, just like I always do at the USPSA Nationals every year! Thanks to everyone who contributed to the match.

[sperman]

I agree with what most of the other shooters have posted.  This was my first nationals, so I don't have much to compare it to.

There is one thing I want to mention that hasn't been brought up yet.  I saw the mag gauge sitting at the chrono station but it wasn't used.  With several stages in the 20 - 22 round count, a 21 or 22 round mag is a huge advantage in limited.  I was working hard on getting some 21 round mags ready, but ran out of time and wasn't sure they would run reliably, so I left them at home.  I don't know how exactly this rule is applied at other matches, and I don't want to start the "you're not going into my range bag" argument again, but if its written in the rulebook it should be applied to all competitors.

[Joe4d]

If there is a 22 round stage and a shooter runs it with one mag it is as simple as the RO taking the mag at unload and show clear, that way there is no argument about if mag was used or not, put the guage at those stages, I have done enough mags to know what combo fits guage which doesnt, as an RO I checked a couple mags at the area 8. I shot all the 22 round stages with my 22+1 mags and both make guage.

I though the stages were great, USPSA is shooting not track and field, The running distance mixes were pretty good, a couple long ones couple short ones, alot in between. I would like to see a few tall guy stages though.

The bad,, Limited sign up was very poor, really no excuse for how inefficient it was, plenty of people doing the work but there was no leadership, I mean, check a name off a list, and say "Next" dont let each and every competitor stand there and BS, also labels could have been mailed out with the last packet, or you could have had multiple stations, the baggies, tshirts, and doodads can be handed out at another table.

All in all Match was Great !,

My Squad was Great and from all walks of life, couple rednecks, A Russian, A Hot chick, a

cowboy, an old fart, Dutch, Philippines,

Vegas was great and the 3 half day format gave you time to enjoy it.

The Range was great, easy to find, close to town, match was well run and lots of water and porta pots. Was a great week for me, I would way rather do 100 degrees in Vegas than 90 in Virginia weather was a non factor it just didnt feel hot.

My thanks and gratitude to the peopl ethat worked this match.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Joe4d

[TDean]

I agree with what most of the other shooters have posted.  This was my first nationals, so I don't have much to compare it to.

There is one thing I want to mention that hasn't been brought up yet.  I saw the mag gauge sitting at the chrono station but it wasn't used.  With several stages in the 20 - 22 round count, a 21 or 22 round mag is a huge advantage in limited.  I was working hard on getting some 21 round mags ready, but ran out of time and wasn't sure they would run reliably, so I left them at home.  I don't know how exactly this rule is applied at other matches, and I don't want to start the "you're not going into my range bag" argument again, but if its written in the rulebook it should be applied to all competitors.

I was also disappointed they didn't gauge mags, especially with the gauge visible on the table. I was thinking with the popularity of the latest 21-22rd mags, USPSA would be more aggressive in this area. With me, I brought a rescomp tube with Bolen follower and base pad (short one) with the intent of having it officially gauged. I wasn't going to use the mag until I knew it was legal and I was nervous about having it in my bag. Fearing a technicality and after we were done shooting on the 1st day, I had a buddy shooting a single-stack ask the chrono folks to gauge the mag. He walked back shaking his head. The mag didn't fit the gauge. It stayed in the rental car for the remainder of the match.

[Paul Santiago]

For positives:

I enjoyed my first nationals. I liked the stages. My squad had a range of skill from M to C ( and one wheel gun) and I learned from all of them. The entire squad pitched in to reset stages and we moved pretty quickly through the them. Scores were up and posted quickly. The RO's and staff were great. LOTS of water for us to stay hydrated.

My negatives would be:

- The signups. The paperwork said 1PM, we didnt start until 2PM.

- The lunch at the range was good, but expensive. $10 for lunch plus the cost of a drink. The gripe I have is that it was the entire plate or nothing. I generally don't eat that large of a lunch when just a hot dog will suffice.

- The loud background conversations at the awards ceremony made it difficult to hear.

As an aside...

And the sound of ricochet's zinging overhead was eyebrow raising at first. I got used to it after awhile.

All learning experiences for my return next year.

Edited September 21, 2009 by pas44

[smokshwn]

This was not my first Nationals. I have been to PASA, Tulsa and MT.

The sign up process of Open/Production was the worse I have ever seen. You would think that the National staff could have made suggestions to improve that process. One solid line forever and ever. That was very poor planning on the part of the National staff.

Sign up was no better (maybe worse) for Limited/L10/Revo.

The awards started late. Why can't they start on time. In the business world, meetings start on time. It is really an insult not to be able to adhere to a schedule. The food pretty much -- was not very good.

Tortilla chips w/plain cheese sauce, accompanied by pork and beans, with BBQ Beef and Chicken....WTF!

The calling of names for the prize table was pretty lame. Terrible communication between the main room and prize table staff. It was nice that the folks calling names were good natured. Area 2 was way more organized in this regard.

All matches seem to have this problem to one degree or another.

The vendor tent is going the way of the big SUVs. Perhaps there needs to be a re-evaluation of how USPSA manages its vendors. It is way too expensive for vendors to come and set up a tent.

I have the utmost sympathy for the vendors and am very thankfull for those that showed up. Why would anyone want to put out tens of thousands of dollars of product out in the dust and wind? It seems those matches with enclosed facitlities (can still be a tent with sides) for the vendors have much better vendor response.

The range was ok. I have shot in the desert many times and it met expectations for wind and dust. No big deal here.

Parking problems were mentioned. Easy solutions. First, those folks who are so arrogant to think they can park anywhere for their own convenience (the driver of the black lincoln in the middle of the road at the vendor area on day 1) need to reevaluate their sense of self importance. Second, although it is convenient, we as shooters need to be better at not giving in to the urge to park at every stage we shoot.

The stages were typical of the old fashion designers. Little itty bitty shooting areas. Three steps shoot, three steps shoot, four steps. Gee Whiz. It is like the designers are used to small berms with no real movement. I am not talking about the runners you can get at A2 or High Desert Classic but for goodness sake, use the berm! If Tulsa was subjected to poor stage layouts, they have been displaced by this years Nationals. Maybe it is time for a complete turnover of staff doing the stage designs and approvals. Bring in fresh new blood with new ideas on how to actually maximize the use of the berms.

In the Open match I made 3 reloads...I also got up off a chair or bench 3 times. It also seemed like the start positions got pretty ticky/tacky...ie. seated in chair, toes on marks, hands at side, head facing downrange. Please four criteria for a start position is getting a bit much. And let's not even discuss the "Dunce Start" position with your head in a corner. Also did it seem as if there were a lot more room in the bays to be utuilized yet the stages were jammed down in the end of the bay limiting the amount of room/distance for the stage? Was there a functional reason for this?

The stages should test a shooters ability on all aspects of shooting. There should have been a standards or at least some weak or strong hand stuff.

I was very surprised to not see a single shot fired from the SHO or WHO...

I did not mind the no shoots so much. The target distances and arrays left a lot to be desired. What is with the ports that require you to squat somewhat. Were there three stages that most shooters had to bend their legs, not to a squat but kind of half way between a full squat and an upright stance. How is this a test of shooting?

The half squat ports really bother me because there is so much variability from shooter to shooter as to how far they must alter their stance to shoot the position. Either put the port low enough that everyone needs to take a knew/go prone or leave the port at a height that everyone can shoot it with minimal change to their stance.

Was there a stage with 11 DQs? Something is seriously wrong here! With the exception of that stage, the ROs did a good job.

IMO if you look for something hard enough you will usually find it.

What was with not having the Palm scoring system? Gee Whiz, we could get to at least the 1990s with regards to technology.

Ok, so I saw numerous opportunities for improvement and I know it is way easier to complain than it is to create or execute. But for goodness sake, this is not the first time Nationals has been held, the senior management of the National staff should be held accountable to improve the process rather than just let it be marginal.

All in all, it was ok, the local folks did a great job of hosting the event. There is significant room for improvement with the stuff out of the control of the local staff.

To answer the posters original question....Regardless of the venue if you can go to Nats, go. There are only a couple of other matches in the country where you can see how your shooting actually stacks up to all of the best shooters in the sport.

I want to sincerely thank all those who expended their time and effort to make this match happen. Your effort does not go unnoticed.

[CocoBolo]

[As an aside...

And the sound of ricochet's zinging overhead was eyebrow raising at first. I got used to it after awhile

On Stage 15 after I put my gun on the table and was crouching down, I thought that the RO slapped my rear end I turned around and looked at him and he smiled and said welcome to the nationals. After I shot the stage I found out it was one of those ricochet's zinging but not overhead in this case.

Back on track. First Nationals, and some what of a newbe to the sport. It was not the event I had expected. I think the stages were plenty challenging. There were not a lot of long shots but there were a lot of tight shots to make up for that. There was no weak hand strong hand. I got lucky I ended the match on stage 3 it had 6 open targets on it in a row so it was a shoot on the move stage.

Of the 8 major matches I have done it fits in 5th place behind (1) Gator (2) TxState Limited (3) DoubleTap (4) Area 8 Championship.

[CPUFIXER]

As I have never even been to an Area match before, this was a first for me.

1. Registration: I thought for sure there was going to be 400+ people all wanting to register at the same time, so I was pleasantly suprised when it was a line of about 70-80. Although I was at the end of that long line, it did go by rather quickly...30min or so. The staff were very nice and helpful, as was all the Nationals staff I came across over the 4 days. I got my packet and went on my way. I didn't realize that there was some free stuff in it until I got back to the room. I've never been to an event that gave away 'swag' and thought that was pretty cool as a relatively new shooter.

2.The range: As my squad did not have to shoot until the afternoon of the 1st day, there was some confusion as to whether or not we were required to go to the shooters meeting that morning. We wen't anyway, but noticed that only people shooting that morning attended. Although I could have used the extra sleep coming from NC, I decided to go to American Shooters to get some rounds down range before my match, so it wasn't a big deal. The range itself seemed well layed out and parking was not a problem. The staff again made sure there was enough water for everyone..'cause it was HOT!

3. The stages: For some reason I thought that the National stages would be longer distances and 30 rounds or more each (thankfully they were not). You know, stuff you wouldn't see anywhere else. I figured there would be "popper activated turners that activate movers that activate hidden plate racks that you have to shoot weak hand standing on one leg" kind of stuff.

4. The shooters: What can one say. I think we have some of the friendliest competitors in any sport. I was standing at the end of one of the bays trying to get a glimpse of a super squad shooting when one of them said "it's a lot cooler under the tent!" motioning me to come over. I guess for some of you who shoot with guys like this all the time that's it's no big deal, but when I was that close to people like Max Michel, Chris Keen, Phil Strader, Manny Bragg, and Todd Jarret...these people are my idols..It was like being back stage at a rock concert, that feeling of inclusiveness...I will never forget it.

My squad-mates were great too. I made some new friends that I hope to shoot with again soon.

5. The Banquet: I've never been to an awards banquet, so I have nothing to compare it to, so I guess it went smoothly, it seem to me at least. There was one thing however, I placed in the bottom third of the Limited rankings, and as they were calling out people's name to go to the prize table, they stopped with anly about 50 names left...It would have been nice to hear my name called. I would have also liked to know ahead of time to bring my name tag as I did not even get in to the prize table room because I didn't have it...(granted the only thing left at that time would have been the tablecloths).

All and all, this was a definate learning experience for me, one of which I hope to expand upon thoughout my shooting career.

[SteveZ]

Ok..here's my 2c observation as a first time Nationals attendee.

We were "greeted" at the gate with a nice stern lecture about creating dust on the drive way and a warning to keep our speed below 10mph or we'd be DQ'ed (for what?)....only to see all weekend the range golf carts going well over 10mph and creating a dust storm behind them.

Stage and names held to protect the guilty but some of the range officers were a bit over zealous in the running of their stages. On one of the stages, one of my shooting buddies was pushed out of the way from behind while he was standing in front of a target waiting to tape it.

On another a rather SENIOR RO made a very wrong call regarding the start position and then coped an attitude saying "its that way because I'm the CHIEF". You can't make up start positions that the rulebook doesn't support.

Regarding the stages themselves. It felt a lot like an Area match with extra stages thrown in and a billion no-shoots. I was expecting more props (unless no-shoots used as vision barriers are considered props)....and didn't see it. The prize table was no better than an Area match. I would have prefered more "run-n-gun" stages. I've always wanted to say that I've shot the Nationals....now I can, but if this match is typical of other Nationals...I think I'll pass next year.

[el pres]

It was a "great" learning expirience (period)

Although next time I think I much rather spend the $270 on a major outlaw 3gun match. More shooting,

more variety, better tables, less calibrations, less overlays, no illegal stages etc. etc.. I'll come back when

I'm going for the top 16!!

I too was confused why I was thouroughly "lectured" to about 10mph at the gate and then watched the range

Quads kick up 25mph all day long ??

A great many thank-yous to the match staff for all of your hard work !!

Now for all of you guys from the South and the East that kept popping there heads up everytime something

wizzed overhead. We had 2 from South Carolina I belive and I had to explain that the ones that sound like mortar

fragments wizzing overhead are bullets (they go far) but the ones that hit the ground and the competitors are

"usually" just rocks !! Welcome to the WEST , I dont think I've ever shot at a range where that does not

happen ?? When bullets hit solid rock, something has to give ...

Edited September 22, 2009 by P.Pres

[Flexmoney]

I moved the match DQ talk to it's own thread...twice now.

Please use the other thread to talk discuss (in a helpful manner) match DQ's.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92602

- Admin

[herky]

"I guess for some of you who shoot with guys like this all the time that's it's no big deal, but when I was that close to people like Max Michel, Chris Keen, Phil Strader, Manny Bragg, and Todd Jarret...these people are my idols..It was like being back stage at a rock concert, that feeling of inclusiveness...I will never forget it."

Chris was on the Super Squad!! Man, his head is going to be bigger now that he is an idol. Seriously, Great Job Chris, 15th is an excellent match.

[CPUFIXER]

'could have been Chris Tilley I saw...

[TDean]

T

Edited September 22, 2009 by TDean

[RickB]

This was my third Nationals ('02 Factory Gun, '06 Multi-Gun), and I very much appreciated the location; give me a dry 95 in Vegas over a wet 95 in Illinois, any time. The dusty/desert facility at Desert Sportsman (sic) is not unlike what I've seen at Parma, ID for Area 1 or Rio Salado, and just part of what a shooter must prepare for. The stages were extremely challenging, if not actually "difficult". That is, there was not a lot of strategizing required, but a whole lot of execution was in order. I had hoped for some 30-round, run-and-gun field courses (half a dozen or more, actually), and also found the "shuffle" theme a little too pervasive; more variety, please. And more variety in the means of making shots difficult, too; covering half the targets with no-shoots is a way to make things difficult, but not the only way. I will also echo the . . . obeservation above concerning the low ports; they were low enough that someone much over 6 feet tall had to adopt some odd, cramped squatting and kneeling postions, while not appearing to adversely affect anyone of average height (comments from those of average height?). "Short people" tell me I don't appreciate the overall advantage of being tall, so maybe ports are just leveling the playing field. The relative lack of table starts, and especially unloaded starts, was appreciated. I didn't eat at the range or at the awards/prize event, so can't comment. My absolute best memory from the match is the abundant cold water available at every stage. It may seem like a small thing, but it can literally be a life-saver. Second best was the hard-working staff. I've worked a nationals, as well as a couple of Area championship, and working can seem pretty thankless. It was great to see virtually everyone in my squad seeking-out the staff for a hand-shake and a "thanks" on every stage; it goes a long way in making the work seem worthwhile. Lasting negative memories? Only of the "the ones that got away" - targets I didn't hit, that is.

[Chuck Anderson]

Couple notes about the use of the bays. I'm not sure if this was the thought process or not but it's just my experience. If you maximize the space used in the bays by pushing them farther out and making the shots longer, it takes longer to shoot and a lot longer to score. It's also harder on the RO's because they have to walk to each target about 800 times during the week. If you're limited to 45 minutes per stage and under 4 minutes per shooter, clearance time, you're limited on how much walking you can have your staff do to score.

As far as the ricochets, I've always thought that was part of the charm of Desert Sportsman. I started shooting at this range for the old SOF and SWAT 3Gun matches. It added that flair of actually being in combat.

[Collecting A's]

Pros:

Good weather

Beautiful range

The field courses were good.

Cons:

Short stages were the weak and lacked creativity.

No long shots.

Changing course of fire after the match starts.

Adding no-shoots.

Changing 180's

Changing the course description after the match started to have a "Forbidden action"

and peoples scores stood when they shot them under the earlier versions of the stage.

[LPatterson]

Collecting A's - Your comments are getting close to having another thread closed.

I don't understand the Pros: - The field courses were good and Cons: - Short stages were the weak and lacked creativity. USPSA has Short, Medium and Long Courses of Fire see section 1.2.1 and modifications to course construction and Forbidden Actions are covered in section 2.3.1.

So that leaves good weather and beautiful range and I think anything over 70 degrees is a waste so I can agree with the beautiful range.

[CAB33]

If you read Collecting A's post he was talking about how the stages were changed after the match was underway.

I agree about the smaller stages lacking something, they had the same target array on 3 of them(3 targets on one stand with a no-shoot in the middle) with a few pieces of steel.

[Nik Habicht]

If you read Collecting A's post he was talking about how the stages were changed after the match was underway.

I agree about the smaller stages lacking something, they had the same target array on 3 of them(3 targets on one stand with a no-shoot in the middle) with a few pieces of steel.

Ypu might have been shooting classifiers-to-be.....

For a few years in Barry, we were shooting three small all steel stages in the same pit --- some of those wound up being released as classifiers.....

[LPatterson]

If you read Collecting A's post he was talking about how the stages were changed after the match was underway.

I agree about the smaller stages lacking something, they had the same target array on 3 of them(3 targets on one stand with a no-shoot in the middle) with a few pieces of steel.

I did read Collecting A's post which is why I included the rules that govern some of his comments. Are you talking about the target arrays being exactly the same on 3 different stages within the same match or the same type of configuration as another stage on the same or previous match? I am not being confortational just trying to understand since I only viewed 1 stage and we only made minimum changes between matches.

I must have been assigned to one of the larger stages because I think I logged miles between following shooters and scoring targets and no target was over 10 yards unless the shooter decided to take a longer shot. It was mentioned elsewhere about the number of shooters and the clearance time and the weather being factors in how some stages were built. We seldom had time when there weren't shooters waiting for the squad in front of them or for us to change targets.

[ima45dv8]

If you read Collecting A's post he was talking about how the stages were changed after the match was underway.

I agree about the smaller stages lacking something, they had the same target array on 3 of them(3 targets on one stand with a no-shoot in the middle) with a few pieces of steel.

I did read Collecting A's post which is why I included the rules that govern some of his comments. Are you talking about the target arrays being exactly the same on 3 different stages within the same match or the same type of configuration as another stage on the same or previous match? I am not being confortational just trying to understand since I only viewed 1 stage and we only made minimum changes between matches.

I must have been assigned to one of the larger stages because I think I logged miles between following shooters and scoring targets and no target was over 10 yards unless the shooter decided to take a longer shot. It was mentioned elsewhere about the number of shooters and the clearance time and the weather being factors in how some stages were built. We seldom had time when there weren't shooters waiting for the squad in front of them or for us to change targets.

I shot your stage twice and thought you folks did a great job of turning it around quickly.

(Thanks for working so we could play!)

[waxman]

Here is the opinion of another first time nationals shooter:

Bad,

#1 At the awards ceremony having that stupid uspsa banner put right in front of the podium, so all of us on the left side of the room could not see who was speaking, this combined with the chatter in the back ground, Jessie Abbate is the only speach I was able to understand.

#2 Being afraid of a bad call by a RO on a certain stage, and dreading the stage from the beginning of the match. Something should have been done here, but that is the match directors deal, And i do realize it is another post.

#3 Having a stage thrown out of a nationals class match, how can this happen, these have been inspected by the best in our sport for months in advance. I know it was my best stage of the match, and I am sure it would have made ALOT of difference for the entire match outcome.

#4 not knowing if there was any kind of shooters meeting for the first afternoon squad. It was not posted anywhere, and nobody knew.

Ok, now the good.

#1 I personally liked the stages, I think the no shoots did a great job keeping the stage speed down, can you immagine RO'ing a 50 yard+ stage in that heat?. No problems for me here.

#2 Staff did a great job, under those conditions, these people need to be paid or something for enduring under that heat, all day.

#3 The awards looked awesome, I would be very proud to have received any one of them

#4 Seeing in person the heros of this sport, wow they all look different without shooting glasses on

Overall, I am glad I went, i would not trade the experience for anything. It turned out to be way more expensive then I anticipated, but that is not USPSA's fault. I think it may be a good idea top make the match a little more centrally located, It was one heck of a drive from MN, I cant even immagine from the east coast, for those that flying was not a option.