AFH Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I have been reading the "Resting Rifle on Mags" thread and it touched on a subject/question I have thought about for a while. Do you, the competitors who actually shoot 3-gun matches, believe that Beta-mags should be allowed in Tactical Class? Why or why not? If you believe they should be disallowed, what about 45 or 50 round "standard" magazines? Just to clarify, Beta-mags are allowed in Tactical at the BRM3G and probably always will be. Andy Horner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chendersby Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I'm against any mag and capacity restrictions in any divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 OK, I support no restrictions, but USPSA limits stages to 32 rounds and that is reasonable. "Outlaw" 3gun doesn't have this limit in most cases, and I see no real need for it. I have yet to see a high round count stage where reloading was too much trouble and the beta was a real advantage but my exposure may be limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Ho Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 No to beta mags in tactical, cause carrying as much ammo as possible isn't tactical. Really I don't care one way or the other. If your match allows it, great. I think we've sort of touched on this when talking about equipment rules. Personally I think as long as you post what is or is not allowed for each class, all is well. Your match, your rules. My personal preference would be to set a capacity limit for tactical class. 30, 45, 52, whatever. If pistol mags are limited then why not rifle mags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I'm against any mag and capacity restrictions in any divisions. + 1 restriction is such a .....restrictive word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I personally think for USPSA tactical and limited should be restricted to 30+1 on the start and anything bigger more for open. The problem with that is are you really going to require your RO's to count 31 shots? You could say 30 rounds mags but I know of several mags that would hold 31 and give the competitor 32 rounds in the gun. In the end I just don't think it would work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Capacity restrictions do not apply to the pistol, only overall length of the mag. Shotgun has a restriction to a certain number of rounds. The rifle is not currently limited. I wouldn't care if it stayed this way. Good stages, and reasonable round counts will rule out the advantage of the beta mag. I personally like my DPMS 45 rounders, and the new Nordic Pmag extensions, and think they are practical. My guess is that no one will win any match because the had the most rounds in the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
35WLN Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I think the length of the mag should be limited like your pistol is. For open anything goes and restrictions on tactical and limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH45 Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 If somebody wants to carry around a Beta, I think it should be their choice. I didn't support Clinton's magazine restrictions either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Leave it alone. If a match had rules, that the largest mags legal were 30 rounders... it wouldn't bother me. but I could see it would affect non-AR shooters more. If you try to go by length.. wouldn't a Beta make it? Then what do you do with rifles that have drum magazines (like a Thompson) - sure they're rare, but I've seen people use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3gunpinoy Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 rules restricting Beta mags on tactical are not needed, IMHO. for all I care, one can have a beta all day long and haul that sucker, and still be last if you aint hitting your target. I firmly believe, COF design is the end all, be all. there is no need for a rule to restrict beta users in tactical even as a resting device as that is still too lowa height for most COF (e.g. Prone). I shoot OPEN and I never had a chance to use my Beta as it is heavy and not most COF don't call for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Open shotgun should be Open...no stupid shotgun round count restrictions Open rifle should be just that, Open. Limited/Tactical should be 30 in the rifle, 8 in the shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Andy, Restrictions on rifle magazine capacity should not exist, especially in "outlaw" where the Course designer can demand a magazine change if they want. Shotgun should be 9 rounds max. at the start, for tactical and HM, no restrictions for OPEN. Pistol can use the accepted magazine length restrictions. On that subject, personally I feel HM should be restricted to 10rds and any .45acp or larger, NO GAP, 300Savage is not allowed in HM why should GAP, be allowed in HM. And really how many people are going to break out their 44mag to use in HM. But I don't shoot much...............Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I have been reading the "Resting Rifle on Mags" thread and it touched on a subject/question I have thought about for a while. Do you, the competitors who actually shoot 3-gun matches, believe that Beta-mags should be allowed in Tactical Class? Why or why not? If you believe they should be disallowed, what about 45 or 50 round "standard" magazines?Just to clarify, Beta-mags are allowed in Tactical at the BRM3G and probably always will be. Andy Horner As you can see, most of us don't really care for more restrictions/rules. I personally believe C-Mags should be allowed along with any other type of ammo feeding devices for the rifle. If you don't hit what you're aiming at, then having that extra 60 rounds is not going to matter. If it is a 'hosing' stage, and the MD is concerned about 'unfair' advantage, then the course designer can/should dictate a mandatory mag change at strategic point in the COF. I certainly would not want to drop that $260 magazine on the fly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I support a 30 round restriction in Tactical and Limited. This has been hashed before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busyhawk Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Andy, I don't want any more restrictions, we can get that with the incoming elect:-)! Let shooters decide what is best for him or her and work with it. I really don't have a problem with the limit of say 30 rounds in the rifle but as said earlier, just another job for the RO to watch. We will call this "PRODUCTION" TACTICAL CLASS! Just like you mentioned in another thought...What will the MD do if a pistol shooter rested his pistol magazine on the ground, are you going to limit the size of the magazine base of a pistol too? Some matches (outlaw) don't want cinch mags and Beta because of the precieved advantage This game is a speed/accuracy and strategy game, don't try to get tactics and other rules to suit. If you really want to change things, come up with a great courses of fire (like Johnsons match) and let the course of fire describe what you want. A great course of fire will dictate what is needed and not needed. Ok, I drift... I love inovations and making it with less rules is my choice. Scott Hawkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I dont care about this one but cinched mags, well you know where I'm at with that, less rules the better !! The only thing that bothers me is when "one" match allows them unanounced. You get to the match and there's a nice 42 round course and the local guy whips out a Beta ?? Oh, at this match you can use Beta's, damit !! I guess you just have to bring all the toys just in case ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobob Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I've only needed my Beta at Ironman, and even there I don't think I used it this year. I don't see that it offers any really great advantage to anyone. Banning it is a rule looking for a reason. I don't understand why some folks think we have to have a rule for everything. Are there really that many socialists in our community? That said I could shoot a match with only 30 round mags and still have fun, as long as I can cinch a couple together! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I have been reading the "Resting Rifle on Mags" thread and it touched on a subject/question I have thought about for a while. Do you, the competitors who actually shoot 3-gun matches, believe that Beta-mags should be allowed in Tactical Class? Why or why not? If you believe they should be disallowed, what about 45 or 50 round "standard" magazines?Just to clarify, Beta-mags are allowed in Tactical at the BRM3G and probably always will be. Andy Horner As you can see, most of us don't really care for more restrictions/rules. I personally believe C-Mags should be allowed along with any other type of ammo feeding devices for the rifle. If you don't hit what you're aiming at, then having that extra 60 rounds is not going to matter. If it is a 'hosing' stage, and the MD is concerned about 'unfair' advantage, then the course designer can/should dictate a mandatory mag change at strategic point in the COF. I certainly would not want to drop that $260 magazine on the fly If that's the argument, why have mag restrictions for handguns and shotguns? 30 round, or a size limit, in tactical, free for all in open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 (edited) I've only needed my Beta at Ironman, and even there I don't think I used it this year. I don't see that it offers any really great advantage to anyone. Banning it is a rule looking for a reason. I don't understand why some folks think we have to have a rule for everything. Are there really that many socialists in our community?That said I could shoot a match with only 30 round mags and still have fun, as long as I can cinch a couple together! Run what you brung and get on with it !! Really why would anyone want to ban anything, do banners really think that they lost a position because some guy had more ammo or they were unable to hit the 300+ targets because they did not have a set of cinched mags to rest on ??? Gimeabreak....... Match rules should be established at the first anual match and not a few years after people have purchased items and practiced for the match with those items. Just cause someone does'nt like a trend that has grown within a certain class does not mean we to have change....or reinterperet the rules. First and foremost shooting a match should be "fun". Maybe I cant afford a $3000.00 Open handgun + Speedloaders and a melted dot on a ported barrel, but it sure is fun to shoot a Beta in Tactical, and it's fun to have at least something cinched to rest my rifle on !!! Why do we have a ScopeTac class in the first place ? Because it's more pleasant to shoot with a scope and you dont want spend thousands of dollars just to shoot Open... It atracts new shooter's, what we all want.. As far as the arms race, keep them under control with clever course design... Edited November 21, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Here's an idea : Ironman Rules ......... ScopeTac rules state, "one gun" can be an Open gun........your choice ?? Think of the posibilities ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdmoore Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 (edited) Andy, Coming out to Norfolk tomorrow for the ironman shotgun match? I don't think there's anything wrong with a round limit, I think that's what effectively happened in the pistol realm. For pistols, the limit is expressed as a length, but realistically you are limited to 20 roundsish. For sake of argument, if someone developed a triple stack mag that allowed limited guns to hold 30 rounds ... you can bet the rule would be rewritten to limit the round count. Sure it's hard to administer, but given that it won't matter unless a stage needs a reload, or say there's a 30 round stage and you see someone miss, anyways, I think the administration wouldn't be the hardest thing. No more difficult than enforcing limited 10 to 10 rounds? So, I'd limit to round count (there are too many mag designs, because most of the mag is external to the rifle and also because of the wide range of calibers that could be used). My motivation: I think there should be advantages given to open class shooters. Heck, I'd go as far as requiring reloads to come off the belt unless you are in open. BTW, I really don't think it would make much of a difference. I know it wouldn't be popular, but that's where I think it should go and why. Edited November 21, 2008 by kdmoore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobob Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I think that's a fairly sensible rule at Ironman. Although the Gibsons' thought process is pretty diabolical, that is one thing they came up with in one of their more lucid moments. I still shoot a tactical rifle, though, and don't put a high power scope with a second close range optic on it. And I don't put a huge tank comp on the barrel. About the only "Open" thing I do there is use a bipod once in awhile, and not very often at that. Hm, ya know, keeping the rifle tactical, and making the shotgun the open gun might have some possibilities! I wonder if I could keep the scope on the rifle if I did that? Oh, I won't. I can't afford an open shotgun, especially one I'd use in only one match a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latewatch Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 I say we should leave discussions of magazine capacity restrictions to the anti-gun crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Payne Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 More rules + less fun + less shooters = death of the sport. Just grab your guns and lett'er buck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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