We are our own worst enemy

[Woody Allen]

I'm not trying to bash anyone here or speak negatively about a sport I love. This is meant only as constructive criticism. I don't like seeing new shooters come out and get steered immediately toward high dollar equipment. Spending money on expensive gear is not necessarily going to equate to shooter satisfaction. The shooters that want to upgrade and that have the financial resources to do so probably will on their own. We can share our thoughts on equipment with them, let them shoot our stuff, etc., it's just the pressuring I sometimes hear that bothers me. I just groan when I hear a new shooter with a perfectly good stock gun that they really should consider getting into open or get an expensive limited rig because it will help their shooting and make the game more fun. That may or may not be true. I just think it's wrong to suggest that their equipment is inferior and they "need" a better blaster right off the bat. No, I'm not talking about some total POS gun that jams every other shot and has a 15# trigger. The trigger can be cleaned up on any good production gun and sights can be changed out easily. Limited division can be entered relatively inexpensively with some modifications to many common production type guns. To suggest that someone HAS to spend lots of money to enjoy the sport or become a better shooter is just silly, IMO.

I agree with your post. However, there is a difference between "high end" and baseline competitive gear. I see shooters with smaller hands shooting these double stack 9s with the 12+ factory trigger that they cannot possibly hold correctly. Also, CCW guns that are not comfortable to shoot. It would be like golf with the wrong clubs. Fly fishing with muskie gear.

Yea, you can putt with a wedge, but why would you want to.

In general, shooters that begin with sport appropriate gear and or those that quickly upgrade to sport appropriate gear stick around. The needed changes are not the high end gear, and can be as simple as getting a used plastic gun, $ 50.00 in sights, and some springs. Yea, you can putt with a wedge, but you can also get a cheap putter. You will have alot more fun, and you will most likely play the sport again. A game that is played with a gun that fits your hand with a decent trigger and sights. Yup, many need to get a better blaster off the bat or most likely you will not see them around.

I almost quit the game until some opinionated as***** told me to throw my gun in the ocean and get a different one.

[AustinMike]

We're in agreement, Woody.

[sargenv]

My general quote to people is "you can start out with XXX but eventually you might wish to get YYYY". But when they look at my gear it's pretty much straightforward. I don't play in open or limited anymore since I actually have more fun playing in Revolver, L10 (with my 627) or Production (sig229, soon to play with that 627). In most cases they might ask about these really expensive guns and usually my comment is, get something affordable and spend the money on ammo. If you then want to get serious, think about upgrading later.

[markcic]

The only high dollar thing I steer new shooters to is more ammo.

I always tell people to bring what they have or I will loan them gear. I always tell people to not buy a new gun to start and to talk to everyone around them and shoot a bunch of guns before buying. Just about everyone in this sport will let people try their guns so people can try a bunch of different guns before they buy so they can find what they like and what works for them.

[38supPat]

I shoot a high end Open gun, so I know about competitive equipment, but theres no reason not to start out with a Glock 17 or a base Kimber, or the cheapest of all...what you have. If they like the sport, they'll figure out pretty quick what they'd like to have.

[woof]

What about telling the novice shooter to come on out. I'll bring extra.

woof

[Johann the Horrible]

I used to carry my competition gun. Several shooters in my club still shoot their carry guns. Sure they will never be competitive but boy, will a criminal get a surprise if he tries to rob them.

I understand that not everyone is a martial artist but a lot of shooters try IPSC/USPSA to hone their matrial skills. It works kinda very well.

The only reason I am not carrying my competiti0n gun is that I am now in the hospitality sector and my gun cannot show under any circumstance.

High-end only interest me if I can carry it.

[JThompson]

I shoot a high end Open gun, so I know about competitive equipment, but theres no reason not to start out with a Glock 17 or a base Kimber, or the cheapest of all...what you have. If they like the sport, they'll figure out pretty quick what they'd like to have.

I'm having a blast shooting production with a gun I got for $200 bucks and mags bought here for $25... I think I have maybe $400 in the whole rig. I'm using my CR stuff for the belt, but I could have got a couple double pouches and used a regular belt and still be shooting for less than $500.

I'm having every bit as much fun shooting this rig as I do shooting my 3500 worth of open stuff.

[steveknapp]

I'm a noob, and can offer my perspective.

My local clubs have been quite good. Bristol, hosts a non USPSA shoot every other week. Before I got my M&P a club member loaned me his Glock to try things out. I enjoyed it and showed up next time with my own stuff. I don't like borrowing, more so when I can't clean it before I give it back. That was very generous of him.

Schultz's had a intro to USPSA/IDPA class fall. While not everyone was a total noob it was helpful and broke the ice a bit. I had fun. My only suggestion would have been to have it in the spring. It was a hard withdrawal from that first hit.

My first shoot with NISA was great as well. I showed up early, as I'd plan to anytime I can, helped setup and meet some folks. They were very nice about my numerous mistakes, and encouraging. I was a bit surprised what a small percentage shows up to help setup and stays to help take down.

I did attend a IDPA match at a local indoor range as an observer. It didn't seem as friendly, but it was their first of the season. Also I always prefer to shoot outdoors when I can.

I've read most of Brian Enos' book. I've read a bunch of what's in the various forums. I also promised myself to stick with production until I get better. Focus on me, not the gun. I know the gun can help, but my mistakes aren't the fault of the gun. Missing hidden targets and the like.

My biggest issue is finding the time, conflicts and the like.

The only place I've found the advice to push towards higher end stuff is when I've looked at reloading. It's something I'm interested in trying, but the $500-600 price of entry for a Dillon setup has me thinking twice.

I'm having fun, and keeping safe.

[Jim Norman]

I won't say we are our own worst advertisment regarding the required gear. BUT I do think that if a significcant number of the "IN" group at a particular match shoots a certain division, that that division is likely to be the one that people tend to gravitate towards.

Locally we have a lot of seriousl Production shooters, followed generally by L-10 and Limited and then down into Open. SS and Revo are not well represented.

This being the case, a great deal of our New Shooters tend to lean towards Production. Now when I started out, Open was the "Big Game" andI like many others just had to get an OPEN gun. I still have it, but I'll admit that outside of Steel and an informal PPC match, I almost never touch either of my Open guns.

I like the idea of Single Stack, alsthough I am not certain I like all the rules. I am planning on giving it a shot so to speak.

Jim

[DJPoLo]

The draw of this sport is the competition.

Not for everyone.

A good many shooters just want to come out to a match and shoot at something besides static bullseye targets. It can also be a justification for owning guns. I will occasionally show up at a match with a gun that I know is not "competitive" but is certainly fun. Ever shoot a steel challenge with a Llama .22 or a Jennings? I can take them out "plinking" but to shoot one at a match is much more fun.

-Chet

[matt2ace]

+1.....Great thread.

I did not see any mention of 'new shooters clinics' in this thread.

Most of us agree, it about getting a new shooter to that first match and making it fun. At that point the hook is nearly set.

In many cases, it's early skills building that will keep the shooter coming back. A number of posters to this thread have already outlined the downside to some input new shooters get early on. New shooters clinics offer a way to give people new to this sport a path to learning HOW to shoot and WHAT to use when just starting out. You don't need M or GM shooters to hold a clinic.......but you do need a couple of good A-level or even high-B shooters who are willing and capable (that is key) of teaching others basic IPSC (or IDPA) shooting skills. These clinics help greatly in retaining shooters and taking away some of the misinformation and opinions that tend to discourage rather than encourage.

This sport can be as intimidating as it is exciting, especially when you are new to it. We all need to learn to be mentors to new shooters, working to adopt them into our fraternity, not scare them away with visions of $4K open guns, $125 mags, $150 holsters.....and the list goes on.

[Holliday89]

+1 on not scaring them away.

When I first started I was almost scared off.

Changed guns, and ideas, Shoot for fun & yourself.

Now I cant wait to shoot every week.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Holliday89

[Johann the Horrible]

I think that part of the problem is that new shooters ask the best and fastest shooter what he should use. Now the GM gives the guy the best advice he can- to be a GM and indeed that is top quality stuff. Now if the guy asked a C shooter he would get different advice. Maybe the C shooters advice would be better for the sport but if the new guy is another Saul Kirch of Jerry Barnhardt then the C shooters advice would not have been the best.

The problem with most shooters are is that we want to "buy a solution". If I spent half the money on practice that I spent on "improvements" on my gun I would have been a much better shooter that what I am today. I made many an "improvement" on my gun that I did not like and had to remove afterwards. Most of the "improvements on my gun I cannot make use of as I am not a good enough shooter.

Still, maybe if I remove maybe another 100rg or so of steel of the slide I would be able to get away with a lighter recoil-spring and maybe gain half a percent of the a whole competition - after all it would be a worthwhile investment wouldn't it? LOL

[RePete]

I have heard similar things too.

When asked about guns (new shooter wanting a gun and lack of shooting experience), I will generally say Ruger MkII. As my Dad would say - "cheap and nasty". It's a good one to learn on with no reloading. If they say they want centerfire, I say that they will be looking at reloading in the future too, S&W model 14. If they say auto, then 9mm that will fit your hand and let them try mine and have them ask their friends to try their's.

As for equipment, I tend to lend some out for them to try.

As for reloading equipment, I tell them that Lee is OK to learn on but Dillon is the best and help, as much as I can, them make the decision.

I always tell them to try things and the different disciplines with what they have. They may not like it.

Yes, we ALL can say the wrong thing at times but we need to check ourselves and ask "What did I do when I first started and what did I use?"

[Crusher]

From my own experience (stepping back into local match set up/design/administration stuff) we have increased our paticipation by 100% and the bulk of the increase is from those new to USPSA shooting (some cross over from IDPA) shooting the production, Limited 10 and single stack guns (because thats what the allready own).

The production division is often the first or second largest division in the match followed by limited (where we see many Glocks), limited 10, open and single stack.

In talking with these "newcomers" the biggest draw for them by far is the stages, high round count multiple shooting solutions (even within divisions) and lots of eye candy/props followed by fast scoring and consistant rule administration. Nobody wants (or feels very chalanged) to shoot box to box stages as a macth that represent practice drills. If you build it they will come.

[steveknapp]

"I did not see any mention of 'new shooters clinics' in this thread." = A local club had one, I think the XDForum folks got it going. It was quite good, very useful. Same for some local practice matches.

Maybe some of this is natural for some folks, but as I practice more and more I keep learning more and more. I doubt a open race gun would make that easier or faster. For example, even with no resistance on the trigger (striker not set), my sights move a good bit more than they should when I'm trying to be "fast". My draw is inconsistent. The list could go on and on... I'm a C or D class shooter I'm sure of it and there is a lot improvement to be made. I'm looking forward to it.

[bberkley]

What about telling the novice shooter to come on out. I'll bring extra.

woof

I have a friend that will shoot his first match this weekend using my gear/guns.

I work with another character that is interested as well, and I hope to get him out even if it means he uses my gear and ammo as well.

Routinely, I suggest a Glock 17 and the inexpensive holster/pouches to the interested new competitor.

Around here, you can get started in USPSA Production for probably under $600 if you don't already own a pistol.

[boz1911]

In the last few months one bit of knowledge that I pass on to new shooters is the degree of difficulty of this sport. Sometimes I think a new shooter sees a super fast run posted then gets discouraged when his run is twice as long. I try to give them an idea of the learning curve. This seems to have helped as about a 1/2 dozen new shooters are returning week after week for our Tuesday night matches.

Recently, I volunteered to give some of these same new shooters some pointers on how to shoot the courses efficiently and explain the wheres/whys of the stage. Been pretty cool as they have been running stages exactly as I have been telling them to. I think the hooks are set!!

[RobMoore]

One thing I see that I think could be discouraging to new shooters is EVERYONE who is better than them trying to offer advice. Its like having 20 coaches everytime you go to a local match (and alot of the time the advice isn't that good).

[38supPat]

And double that number if the new shooter is a woman...

[larry cazes]

One thing I see that I think could be discouraging to new shooters is EVERYONE who is better than them trying to offer advice. Its like having 20 coaches everytime you go to a local match (and alot of the time the advice isn't that good).

I have been following this thread for a while.......This is the same situation that occurs for someone coming into ANY competitive sport as a beginner. I would suggest that if the new person is not comfortable being in this situation that he/she may not have the right temperment for this or any competitive sport. I belong to a USPSA club here in northern california that routinely pulls in more than half, sometimes as much as 3/4 of the match attendance from beginners, often first timers. We run a new shooter clinic once a month that really pulls them in. My experience is that it is better to give more information and guidance to a new shooter than it is to leave them on their own when they are new. Those who take the class, will go through 2-3 hours of instruction and then will be paired up with experienced shooters who can answer questions and guide them through their first stage. My wife and I went through this when we first started five years ago in the class and I didnt see the information overload as a negative thing. We were happy to quickly make a load of new friends who enjoy shooting.

[shred]

We shot a steel match the other day with a couple of new shooters... they said "why didn't we start doing this sooner?"... "oh yeah, we thought you needed one of those race guns.." That particular misinformation has to be about the worst thing that's ever come out of some gun writer or other. I started IPSC with a Glock about 15 years ago and at any time from then I could have dusted off that Glock and still be competitive gear-wise at a match. Of course then they said "we tried to get some friends to come out, but they were probably just using that as an excuse..."

[larry cazes]

Shred, I get a good selection of recent gun mags from Guns and Ammo to American Handgunner from friends after they have read them. This type of crap is still written quite often today by authors who obviously know nothing about the sport but have an axe to grind. Why should we expect newcomers to the sport to think otherwise.

[Johann the Horrible]

Added to that we have other shooting organizations telling their members that they are not allowed to do any practical shooting or risk loosing their affiliation. When IPSC was campaigning to get into the Olympics they were blocked by a shooting organization. Obviously that does not help anybodies cause. We, all of us, should set ourselves a goal about recruiting members. My personal goal is 3 new members a year and now I have learned to follow up on the new recruits. If they miss a shoot they get a phone call on the Saturday night - "Where were you?" If hey run into a problem with ammo or gun or whatever they need to tell me so that I can help them sort it out before their enthusiasm wains and we loose them to the sport.