We are our own worst enemy

[Sarge]

Man, am I glad I happened across this post? I am almost 50 and realize just as I did in golf that I am past my prime as far as becoming a champion. But I am retired from the military and carried the good old .45 and m9 for over twenty years. I consider myself a good shot, safe and knowledgable. I am different than alot of people in that I want to shoot USPSA for just as much the fun and commraderie as I do the competition. But I try to see things from the better shooters perspective as well. I think if I was shooting for points or standings, no matter how informal, it would bother me to be squaded with a guy like me who had never fired a round in the sport. Which is why I want to get involved with a club for more than just a quick match every few weeks. I would like to reach out to the new guys. I would stay after the match or show up early and take them through the course. Let them shoot, my stuff if needed, without all the supposed experts watching. I shoot informally with some guys from work, half of which would love to shoot USPSA or IDPA. But they are intimidated just by me talking about it.

I do see how some could be turned off by the clubs they visit. I have attended a couple of monday night shoots as an observer at a local club and have never had a word spoken to me by anyone that I did not initiate a conversation with. Not that I'm saying that is there fault, indeed they are probably not even aware of it. But the shooters seem to be very wrapped up in the game and me walking in and saying, "OK where do I stand", would probably not go over very well. As I said it would probably bother me if I were in their shoes. So as far as my personal observations go it is much easier for a club to say "hey guy just bring your stuff and jump in" than it is to actually make it happen.

I guess my point is there are multiple ways of looking at this. I would love some range time with help from another shooter before I start shooting the matches. Better for me AND better for the other shooters IMO.

Anyway I know once I do jump in it will be a blast and I will always be looking for the next "new guy".

[badchad]

I have attended a couple of monday night shoots as an observer at a local club and have never had a word spoken to me by anyone that I did not initiate a conversation with. Not that I'm saying that is there fault, indeed they are probably not even aware of it. But the shooters seem to be very wrapped up in the game and me walking in and saying, "OK where do I stand", would probably not go over very well.

I think you might be surprised. I think you are correct that guys are into what they are doing, and don’t notice someone standing around, however I think most would be happy to offer advise if you ask for it, especially if it’s just a local match. I asked questions all the time when I first started, and most people were gracious. As I improve I still ask questions of better shooters when I have them. As I get better I don’t mind answering questions of the newer guys and it’s a complement when people think your good enough to ask advice of. Of course it’s probably better to ask a question of a guy who is finished shooting and did well or is obviously not busy than one who is visualizing right before a stage or upset about a mike.

[Sarge]

Makes sense in theory.

[JerryC]

At my club you are in danger of too much information. Say you'd like some tips and a little help getting started and you'll get more than you can handle, but in a good way. That's what happens when the club match is at range that belongs to a handgun school and half the shooters are active instructors.

[Slabbie Shooter]

I'm out because my ammo money job went away.

I love the sport but my unrealistic expectations of my own performance, coupled with match nerves, and the aforementioned advice givers made for some unpleasant days at matches.

When I come back to the sport I'm going to do it for the sheer joy of it, and not worry a bit what everyone says/thinks/opines I should do/buy/use.

Single Stack and proud!

Edited February 2, 2009 by Slabbie Shooter

[AzShooter]

I just started shooting at an old club again and when people saw me come out with a revolver I got a lot of looks.

Some guy even said "Are you sure you want to try this with a revolver?"

"I'll give it a try" I said. At the end I came in 17 out of 40 shooters. Not great but I had fun and did beat the guy that suggested it was too difficult for a revolver. I also met a lot of guys that later said they wanted to see my revolver and wanted to try it out.

Seems everyone had one but were afraid to bring them out.

This club encourages new shooters and probably gets 2 - three new people at a match every week. Some stay, some.

go. More would stay if they were treated with respect no matter what they brought out. It's all for fun anyway.

I met two new shooters that night shooting Glocks with Uncle Mike holsters, two mags in their pockets. Great way to start I told them. I followed them through a few of the stages. One had a problem with his mussle but it was taken care of by the MD real well. I talked to him and said it happens to all of us at one time or another and to just keep going.

He told me how it happened and I helped show him how to prevent it again.

[STI2011]

I don't think competing lessens the joy of just shooting.

I think we all enjoy the matches as ways to gauge our own improvement as well as shoot a course that someone else designed and its the first time we're seeing that particular COF which makes it more fun (for me anyway).

JK

I think that some people lose out on the enjoyment because they are so consumed with being on top that they can't be happy unless they are winning. I get a little bummed out when I'm not shooting well but, I still look forward all week long to shooting our weekly match.

[mountaincoulee]

Context: I'm brand new to this game, except for having just taken a 2-day IPSC Black Badge introductory course (400 rounds fired) that included a mini-match attended by regular competitors.

I travelled 150 miles for this course, and paid $225.

The course revealed what it is possible to do, and how difficult (or easy if you let it) it is to do well.

My first match is in three weeks. I am hooked and have already enjoyed the camaraderie of the IPSC fraternity, first-hand and via this site. For example, folk I did not know were going "here try this one", to help me select a Production gun that shot well in my hands. As a result, I know that the gun I later ordered actually fits me for I shot its brother over 400 times over 2 days. How lucky can one be to run into such generous people.

For the time being I am putting my energy into revitalizing my Rod&Gun club's handgun program, which fell by the wayside 15-20 years ago as the guys started raising their families. My club has agreed to find out if it is feasible to add four 25yx50y handgun pits to our range, each bermed on three sides. Looks like I'm spearheading this project. There are no naysayers sniping from the sidelines; better yet, old timers are stepping out of the woodwork and offering their help.

I'm in because of the people, because of the fun/work of getting good at something that is really challenging, and because I like friendly competition. No doubt it will take work to get out of U and D.

Edited February 12, 2009 by mountaincoulee

[kdiver58]

I'm happy to say that I've had the exact opposite experience

as the original poster eluded to.

When I got ready to take the new shooters class at

East Alabama gun club they told me to buy nothing and

after the class they told me to buy NOTHING.

I shoot my stock M&P 40 cal , my Blackhawk holster

and my big investment was 2 RSR mag holders... $30

shipped.

They stressed shoot what you have until the equipment

is the problem. Trust me the equipment is not the problem

right now.

I used to race in SCCA endurance racing. An instructor

told me don't spend a lot on the car at first make the

investment in yourself first and when you are to the

point that putting more money in the car helps .. do it then .

I'm finding shooting is the same ..

USPSA is more addicting than most drugs ..

[steveknapp]

I think that some people lose out on the enjoyment because they are so consumed with being on top that they can't be happy unless they are winning. I get a little bummed out when I'm not shooting well

The nice thing about the times and classification system is you can benchmark yourself against yourself.

I get frustrated when I don't shoot well, compared to my standard. And excited when I see myself improve.

Maybe there are some clubs where I'd not be welcome if I'm not "serious enough" about pushing the limits of the sport, but I've not found that yet.

[internetguy]

Good comments. I was lucky enough to get into a good group here in Dallas. They were very cool, very welcoming, and walked me through the requirements. I never felt like my equipment was being scrutinized other than for safety.

They were also encouraging at the end of the event and my results (while not in last place) were fairly predictable as a first time event participant.

Safety is far more important than equipment when you're a newbie, IMHO. Shooting with your feet moving is very alien to a lot of people new to competitive shooting.

As a result of the quality people in the club I first attended, I've returned a few times, but not as often as I'd like. Time is tight for me, like many others.

But great insight on this thread- I remember very well what my first event was like and I was quite nervous. Great people with the right attitude at the club make all the difference in the world.

Spot on comments on this thread IMO.

Neil

Dallas, TX

[burninator]

I took my Black Badge course with Frank Vass and Walter Hornby last month and it included about 50% safety and 50% shooting instruction and included a couple stages we shot as well with some other shooters that came in to help on the 2nd day.

Of those 8 that took the course I believe there was 7 that attended the next 2 matches and likely 5 that will continue on in the sport (although 2 were already shooting IDPA) and I believe this is due to positive experiences at our Black Badge course and our first match. Everyone was helpful and even the match director asked us all after if there was any thing they could improve on for us and for future groups which are new to shooting.

I think that is really the key to grow the sport with new shooters, that you not only recognize it but ask the new people what worked and what didn't and try to continually improve the experience. So kudos to all of the IPSC Alberta officials and contributors for making it happen!

[Dragon]

I used to carry my competition gun. Several shooters in my club still shoot their carry guns. Sure they will never be competitive but boy, will a criminal get a surprise if he tries to rob them.

I understand that not everyone is a martial artist but a lot of shooters try IPSC/USPSA to hone their matrial skills. It works kinda very well.

The only reason I am not carrying my competiti0n gun is that I am now in the hospitality sector and my gun cannot show under any circumstance.

High-end only interest me if I can carry it.

Shot 2 match with my KAHR cw9 lots of reloads but kicka** fun.

[MMETALMANN]

I'de like to add my two-bits:

In 2002 I encountered the Missouri Defensive Carbine Club (MODCC). A bunch of guys shooting at a public range, in ways I'de never really contemplated; moving, using cover, competing.

At the time all I had was a rough ole SAR-1. They welcomed me in, I began shooting regularly with them, and before you knew it I was designing and building crude COF's! I loved it! There was very little pressure in the competitions, and TONS of adrenaline, which I still get off on!

I also met a gunsmith, who at the time, had tons of ammo and knowledge to share!

That group was absorbed by a local manufacturer who appropriated not only the core of the group, but started charging. It was an antithesis to what I was having so much fun with. But, in the end, seemed destined to happen as many of the group preferred JUST to shoot, and not to help generate the COF's that we all ran. But thats another story.

My family moved to Kansas. I started the Kansas Defensive Shooters Club (KDSC) , and make steel targets on the side, as well as working for a steel company.

We initially started with me and one other guy. That got us shooting at a gunsmith's range, again, making simple COF's designed to push "bench" shooters out of their comfort zone, and more towards practical use of their firearms! I was building more and more, and having more and more fun developing a community in Kansas, where before there was none!

Since then I have bought 40 acres, have pushed my steel making abilities to the max and now run small 3-gun, and COF oriented KDSC shoots!!! As many of you have already mentioned, I will loan one of my firearms to any one who cant compete, just to 'infect' them !

But, I digress, the gunsmith I met in Columbia told me why he did what he did, "... all I want to do is to promote and support safe gun ownership in my community as best I can....".

Simple as that....he is still my mentor to this day. I think that all my hard work pays off when I look at a shooter who's practically shaking after a good run, or has just accomplished something he/she never thought they could. I feel like my simple COF's and sheer will to make people congregate in these types of open casual competitions, have put minds in motion.

We ALL need to 'infect' people in this positive way. Leave all the self absorbed 'pro' shooters to themselves! They will always have sheep to soak up their gloriousness [sic].

WE need only show others the way, after they see the path, it is up to them to take it or not, walk it, or run headlong as I did!!!!

This is a great thread!!!!

[gino_aki]

One of the new guys at our club (mentioned in another thread) was having big time problems with his gun, mags, ammo etc....it was painful to watch. He really couldn't afford to act on all the advice he was getting...info overload, so I offered to tune up his gun (Para SS). Charged him for a new bushing, new thumb safety, new o.s. slide stop, new magwell, new grips to match aluminum buff, and 1/2 price for a lightly used guide rod, mainspring, and recoil spring...came out to $128.74 total. What he got was a tightened slide to frame fit, refit barrel, tuned extractor, recontoured ejector, new thumb safety to fit the 2 3/4 lb trigger job, lighter springs to make handling easier (recoil spring was 20lbs, put in 16.5 progressive) and trying to save/use as many of the stock parts as possible to keep his costs down. Taking care of the gun problems essentially solved the mag problems, test fired it with every junk load I had laying around.

The look on his face when he saw it was good enough...but when he went through the match with just a few bobbles compared to the death-jams he used to have...the smile on his face was payment enough. He still has to work on his ammo...new reloader, and his techniques (might be limp-wristing a bit) but he sure is having a better time now.

Sometimes it's better to put some of those spare parts and your expertise to work helping a new shooter rather than seeing how much you can sell 'em for to fund the next "project."

[James W]

I'm so glad that I read this thread. I got a lot of good info, & can't wait to attend a match. I'm just going to get into the sport to have a practical way of shooting at targets to make me a better shooter for defensive training. There is one other thing that needs to be said about getting new people into shooting it is the Second Amendment. The more people who get involved the more we have to fight for our rights as gun owners. So preach the gospel of the gun, & don't let any slip through. This is fight we can't afford to lose. So if you see someone who is new at a match, take him/her under your wing NO MATER WHO THEY ARE! The shooting sports are getting less attractive in the sporting world.

Jimbo

[wkj4567]

At my club, the experienced shooters give more advice to new shooters on how to shoot, take your time, get your hits, and plan your reloads then on what equipment to buy. Everyone is always encouraging and helpful.

[dukeyjoe]

Thanks Pat for starting this thread! My 16 yo son and I are just getting equipped and have not competed yet. We were fortunate enough to hook up with some really great individuals down at Moss Branch in Anniston, Alabama. My son purchased a Para Ordnance P16 limited gun from Frank, along with the rest of the gear needed to start competing. Not only did Frank make the complete rig affordable for my son (who insisted on buying his first competition pistol with his own $$), he then proceeded to spend 2-3 hours with him getting him squared away on everything from safety issues to drive fire exercises. Roger was also an inspiration and took time out of his busy day to educate us on a variety of issues. There are people out there that are great ambassadors for this sport and I, for one, and greatful that we met the guys from Moss Branch and not some of the other types mentioned in this thread. Now , I just need to find a deal like he did and we will, both, be on our way to enjoying this sport from behind the sights. BTW, I know their last names, but chose not use them without their permission.

[ima45dv8]

That's OK, Duke. We know who they are, and they are great guys.

[dukeyjoe]

That's OK, Duke. We know who they are, and they are great guys.

Yeah, I figured that anyone that new anything about Moss Branch would know these guys. I spoke with Roger Cash (kangaroo on this forum) this a.m. and he didn't have a problem with my mentioning his last name. Frank emailed me, but didn't say either way. These are some great guys, who are not trying to fleece newbies. Roger and Frank are currently trying to find me an affordable limited gun and Roger saved me from making a bad purchase on a reloader. My hats off to these guys!

Edited July 9, 2009 by dukeyjoe

[Patrick82]

I recently started training IPSC shooting with some experienced shooters and must say that it was (and is) a nice experience. As a recreational shooter I already had a Glock 17L but no holster or anything. The advice I got was, “get a cheap holster that will fit the Glock and train a few times with us and see if you like it.” And guess what, I like it, so upgrades of my gear will follow but not because I have to but because I want to.

[ima45dv8]

I recently started training IPSC shooting with some experienced shooters and must say that it was (and is) a nice experience. As a recreational shooter I already had a Glock 17L but no holster or anything. The advice I got was, “get a cheap holster that will fit the Glock and train a few times with us and see if you like it.” And guess what, I like it, so upgrades of my gear will follow but not because I have to but because I want to.

Very wise plan of action, Patrick.

You have some good mentors in your corner.

[Ken Nelson]

Handling of new shooters, and retention of existing shooters is something we are discussing heavily in our club as well.

My son and I felt very welcomed when we first joined but we've had reports from folks who shot once and didn't return that they didn't feel comfortable.

So we are evaluating how we handle new shooters, how we run matches, how we do everything really. Everything is fair game except for safety.

As part of this, I just put a "Getting Started" page on our website: http://www.southernutahpistol.com/?page_id=241 Comments welcome.

This thread has been helpful, I'm going to make changes to the page with ideas I've read here.

[DUKE]

When there is a new shooter on our squad I always try to encourage them after each run {build their confidence} and amswer any questions they may have. It is real easy for a new person to be overlooked , I was lucky and always had some good mentors in IDPA,USPSA and Long Range comps. I can imagine someone comeing to a match solo knowing no one for the first time. {pretty overwhelming to say the least} I guess treat a new person like you would want to be treated and more shooters will come back!

[kgunz11]

When there is a new shooter on our squad I always try to encourage them after each run {build their confidence} and amswer any questions they may have. It is real easy for a new person to be overlooked , I was lucky and always had some good mentors in IDPA,USPSA and Long Range comps. I can imagine someone comeing to a match solo knowing no one for the first time. {pretty overwhelming to say the least} I guess treat a new person like you would want to be treated and more shooters will come back!

+1 Very well said.