Allowing 22s in USPSA

[Lexor40cal]

For those of you who really think that USPSA needs a 22 division, might I remind you that due to the purchase of Steel Challenge by USPSA one presently exists

It may an ignorant question...but just how available are these Steel Challenge matches? For me, I suspect that the closest is an hour drive and that the frequency is not weekly.

You have weekly practical pistol matches? Less than an hour away? Where do you live??? Must be nice.

Flexmoney,

here in Atlanta we are fortunate enough to have 3 indoor weekly USPSA matches, SAPSA & NAAS each Tuesday night and GPSL on the Wendesday, we also have a monthly match available to us every weekend within a 1+/- hour drive.

South River (1st Sun.), Cherokee (2nd Sat.), Griswoldville (3rd Sat.), Moss Branch (3rd Sun.), River Bend (4th Sat.) & Cool Springs (4th Sun.)

We also have Griffin that runs a steel match 1st Sat.

12 months a year, year round shooting, what a great place to live if your a shooter.

[jdavionic]

I think I know the answer to all of these for you, as I believe I know 'jdavionic'

Griffin Gun Club runs Steel Challenge, well actually I just found out that yesterday that it is US Steel Shoot and no longer Steel Challenge, it look as if there has been/is to be a split there??

But they run a steel match first Saturday of every month, it's not a weekly match but monthly. It is about an hout from you, but it is a great starting block for juniors.

I think one of the problems here is that the discussion is getting were I originally saw it going, everyone wants to be the head chese that makes the decission. Does it need to be another division?, how about no, just let locall Level I matches let whom ever run using a .22 and score them along with all other competitors, but do not roll the scores up to USPSA, just publish them locally.

As for steel, just paint prior to run and visible hit scores, for activators etc. just take the activator hit, and give them the score for the swinger, they don't need to be shooting the difficult stuff yet any way?????

The whole idea here is to get more shooters out, regardless of age, size, ability. IF it slows down the match due to number of shooters, that is a good thing.

Thanks for the response.

With respect to the latter discussion, I honestly wouldn't care whether kids were officially scored or not. I think kids would like to see their scores posted locally for the same reasons that adults like to see them. But as far as making the scores official and getting a classification, I seriously doubt my kid would care about these official items at her age. And by the time she cares about it, she'll be shooting a firearm that meets the official requirements. My only input regarding adding a division is that it might work to attract more young people to the organization on a whole. But whether USPSA wants that or not, and whether they believe that this new division(s) would be benefit or not is obviously up to them. I don't see a down side to it. But as I said, I'm quite new to the organization.

[g.willikers]

Lexor40cal says, "The whole idea here is to get more shooters out, regardless of age, size, ability."

Awright!

Now, if the guys who run the local matches will agree, betcha' there's plenty of former competitors who will be interested.

A dot scoped Ruger 22-45, 'etc, in an open front holster and we semi old timers are back in business.

As a side note, it's ok if normally calibrated poppers don't fall with only one hit from a rimfire. It's great fun, and more realistic, to have to hammer away on them with the .22 to make them go down.

[Hank Ellis]

Our sport has done well with the rules as envisioned by the founders. Changed, tweaked, and refined but the same basic rules as I shot it 20 years ago are stil there.

Diluting the sport to include a .22 division is flat wrong on several levels. 1) The sport was started as the use of the handgun in a defensive situation. A .22 is not suitable for this. 2)The founders envisioned three legs, all of which must be there to be at the top of your game in practical shooting. A .22 is definitely lacking in the Vis, Power part. 3)Allowing .22 to compete for score is simply opening the door for airsoft and similiar.

But I still think we need general guidelines for allowing .22 in USPSA. It will allow sub-juniors a place to start before graduating to Minor caliber. And this is where my focus is.

-If you are too old and arthritic to handle a 9mm or .40 Minor for a match. Find another shooting sport. IPSC never has and hopefully never will cater to the lowest denominator. I'm too old and my eyes are too shot for NRA High Power but I don't cry over it. It is what it is.

-The sub-junior guidelines should end when you reach your 15th birthday. If you can't handle a 9mm Glock by then, you've got other issues.

-The sub-junior shooting a .22 should know that he/she isn't shooting for official score. The shooting they are doing is excellent practice for when they graduate to shooting Minor or Major.

-Shoot one match scoring Minor or Major and you cannot shoot .22 again. Ever. Between this and turning 15 should get rid of most of the sandbaggers.

-Don't go to a Level II and above match expecting to find a .22 Super Squad. It won't be allowed. .22 is only allowed to be shot at the local Level I matches.

As stated in another thread, I got my start in IPSC with a .22 and I was well into adulthood. But this was at an unsanctioned, not even close to, a USPSA match. Think of it as Saturday practice with your buddies and some interested guy wants to try a run and gun stage with his .22. He's safe so you say 'why not'. The seed was planted and it grew.

All I'm asking is for general guidelines for allowing sub-juniors to compete for no score using .22RF at the Level I local match. Nothing more. And most of what I'm asking for is what to do with steel and activators if anything that isn't covered in the rulebook already. That and allowing low ready starts instead of holster starts.

[Nik Habicht]

Never mind the kiddies. How about .22s for us old guys with sore joints who can't do the .45s anymore. Can we come back or not?

I know of one shooter locally who's approaching senior status, who in deference to his elbows shoots everything minor. His open and limited guns both run one of the 38 Super variants.....

[g.willikers]

Hank Ellis says-"If you are too old and arthritic to handle a 9mm or .40 Minor for a match. Find another shooting sport. IPSC never has and hopefully never will cater to the lowest denominator. I'm too old and my eyes are too shot for NRA High Power but I don't cry over it."

Yeah, but there are lots of satisfying substitutes for the highpower game using the same skills and techniques. Games like 100 yd bullseye, silhouette with, (dare I say it), .22s. And even field target for air guns. Eghads!

All kinds of stuff, for big boomers to rimfire, readily available around the country, just about anywhere one lives.

But what is there to satisfy as a substitute for uspsa games? There's steel challenge, of course, bowling pins, action pistol, all provide a place for rimfire, but try to find one. You would have to be mighty lucky to have a nearby club doing any of them. And none of these have anywhere the same attraction as running around an entertaining field course.

It just ain't the same.

From the conversations, it's getting clear that the majority would tolerate rimfire for juniors.

But for seniors, it's either chuck all one's present gear and try to find some kind of minor power substitute, or hit the road.

While switching to a minor 9mm or .38 sounds good on paper, having tried it, it's not all that much of an improvement.

And we older guys have lots more time on our hands than most of you. If we returned there would be lots more help and less burnout. We already have the experience and knowhow, don't forget.

Considering the number of uspsa members there are these days, in spite of the recent bragging from the home office, the participation is no higher than fifteen years ago. And that makes it quite a bit less in the real world, especially relative to the increase in population and gun ownership since then. Something to consider.

In the meantime, for me, it's back to plan A - going to the range during the week, with a few pals and my wife, setting up props on an empty range, and having a very enjoyable day running stages with our trusty .22s. No charge and no waiting.

Bye.

[Jim Norman]

One possible solution would be this. You are allowed to shoot a.22 in the .22 division, BUT, once you join this division, you cannot return to the others. That would solve the dilemma for the members that can no longer handle the recoil of even a minor load. Also works from the other end, you can start with a 22 in the 22 div, but once you switch up, you cannot go back until you do, then you are forever in 22.

Might be a few medical tweaks but this keeps 22 as a youth and grand dad div.

Jim

[Nik Habicht]

The whole idea here is to get more shooters out, regardless of age, size, ability. IF it slows down the match due to number of shooters, that is a good thing.

No,actually it's not when your program is already running at or near capacity. People will take off and do other things, rather than spending 7-8 hours shooting 5-6 stages....

I'm all in favor of increasing turnout, and of introducing juniors to the sport. That said, this sport in particular demands certain things, including some level of physical and mental strength and endurance. Many manufacturers are cranking out small handled 9 mm guns -- the CZ, Browning High Power, the new Ruger all come to mind......

[GentlemanJim]

Just start down this path...

And soon we will all be using squirt guns shooting at flower shaped targets.

jim

[Alan Meek]

Just start down this path...

And soon we will all be using squirt guns shooting at flower shaped targets.

jim

But those flower shaped targets will be able to squirt back at us!!!!

[EricW]

Hells bells, why not have a BB gun division while we're at it? I keep seeing this stuff on here:

- I wanna shoot my airsoft in USPSA

- I wanna shoot my 22

- I wanna use a squirt gun and get scored major

- I wanna air-gun the stage and yell bang loud enough to set off the timer for score

Enough already.

Want to shoot your 22 at a local match? Fine. Make damned sure it *runs* so nobody's waiting 20 minutes for you to shoot the stage, then pull up your big boy (girl) pants and be man or woman enough to accept the fact that you'll be shooting for funzies and no score. Then have the grace to smile and not throw a hissy over it. You made a choice. USPSA and the MD did ***NOT*** do you wrong by not recognizing your choice of equipment as a scoreable combination.

Personally, I think USPSA matches take too damned long anyway, running these types of "special" deals only makes them take longer and makes them more painful, thus I hate to see it at all. I think this kind of stuff should be done at SC matches, not run and gun matches. SC is where we bring in new shooters and groom them for run and gun, not the other way around. Bring your 22 to the steel match and blaze away.

I'm not against kids in the sport, but the sport doesn't need bastardization "For the Children." We have a sport for the kids to shoot now. Once they mature enough to shoot the real deal safely, then can run 'n gun with everyone else with no special provisions.

And for those who can't handle major, you have the option of minor or sub-minor for no score.

Edited January 7, 2008 by EricW

[zhunter]

OK, I only read most of the first page of this thread. Here are my thoughts.

I have seen young shooters at a local match shooting a .22. NO ONE had any problems with it. Most would stop and watch the young new shooter at marvel at the ability and enthusiasm they had.

That said, I have two kids, aged 12 and 13, and both would have NO problem shooting a 9mm, and it would be even easier if the 9mm was downloaded to at or near the 125 PF.

I love the idea of getting new shooters in the sport, but I do think a 9mm is plenty light for kids.

JMO

[chp5]

I like the idea of a level 1 rimfire L-10 division. L-10 rules apply with two deviations:

1. Steel need not fall to count for score.

2. Low ready in lieu of holster draw permitted.

I think Dale sums it up well. A .22 division can grow our sport more than any other single addition/change IMO. It can bring in new shooters and juniors. It can also add some variety for seasoned shooters.

I can't think of a good reason not to do this.

[DougCarden]

Understanding the history of this sport and having been around it for 15 years.....I cannot state my opinion more eloquently than EricW, and wholeheartely agree with his sentiment. We buy the kids .22s until they can handle 9x19s when they get older....then they shoot our guns in "this" sport.

I am definitely not for futher dilution of the pool as it were.........

DougC

<imagining what Col. Cooper is thinking watching this from his lofty perch.......>

[g.willikers]

chp5 says "seasoned shooters." Very tactful. What a nice young feller.

EricW says "Make damned sure it runs so nobody's waiting 20 minutes for you to shoot the stage."

Isn't the RO supposed to call a dnf if a shooter can't clear and continue pretty quick? If someone is taking way too long with a problem, and holding things up, whatever the equipment, it's the ROs fault for not calling it.

DougCarden says "imagining what Col. Cooper is thinking watching this from his lofty perch."

We all know what the Colonel thought of this game after about 1983, and it weren't pretty to hear.

It's a pity all this conversation can't be enjoyed around a table with some good beer.

[Hank Ellis]

Obviously a lot of strong opinions on this subject. I agree with Willikers that this would be a great conversation around a table with a few brews.

Let's keep our focus here. The end result is to get more youths in our sport. Yes, our junior program as currently administered is doing a decent job. But we can do better. So, how do we get more youths into the shooting sports? Get the parents shooting. Without the parents the youths are not going to show up on thier own.

The more I think about it, the more I think that officially allowing .22, even for no score is a bad idea. It's a dilution of the sport that we don't need or want. So how do we get the young'un up to speed to play with us? Practice. Each parent knows the child and knows when they are ready to shoot Minor. Until then, practice. There is one USPSA junior that keeps popping in my head. His dad coached him with a Minor gun when he was 12 or 13 and shot the matches with us. Now that he's a Junior B Limited shooter I see that Dad was on the right track. Allowing this junior to shoot .22 would not have moved him sooner into the sport. If a local Level I MD OKs a young shooter to use .22, I good with that. But make it official, uh, no. Yeah, I know I said it was a good idea earlier but I've changed my mind. The Pandoras Box of unintended consequences should be left closed.

The other sanctioned competition I play in is Trap. Trap makes no allowance for Sub-Juniors (under 15) and Juniors (under 18) except for where they start at Handicap, 19yds. Even then once they turn 16 it's to the 20yd line. The rest of us start at 20yds. Whoopee. 1yd don't mean squat at short yardage handicap. Trap has been around a whole lot longer than USPSA and if they had thought making special provisions for juniors was beneficial to the sport they already would have done it.

[EricW]

DVC is a three-legged stool. Remove any one leg -- and it's the difference between a having sturdy sitting device and a pile of firewood.

[Ron Ankeny]

The more I think about it, the more I think that officially allowing .22, even for no score is a bad idea.

Same here.

[Steve J]

Understanding the history of this sport and having been around it for 15 years.....I cannot state my opinion more eloquently than EricW, and wholeheartely agree with his sentiment. We buy the kids .22s until they can handle 9x19s when they get older....then they shoot our guns in "this" sport.

I am definitely not for futher dilution of the pool as it were.........

DougC

<imagining what Col. Cooper is thinking watching this from his lofty perch.......>

+1

Here's a little excerpt from what the Honorary Life Chairman of IPSC thought and committed to paper in 1993: Practical shooting was originally conceived to be exactly that - practical - but ten years of increasingly unreasonable course design and continued disregard of the power factor in competition equipment has given the field to... guns, which are expensive, unwieldy, and essentially unsuitable for any defensive purpose. Worth reading in full about World Shoot X: Jeff Cooper's Commentaries

[sslav]

Hank Ellis says-"If you are too old and arthritic to handle a 9mm or .40 Minor for a match. Find another shooting sport. IPSC never has and hopefully never will cater to the lowest denominator. I'm too old and my eyes are too shot for NRA High Power but I don't cry over it."

And we older guys have lots more time on our hands than most of you. If we returned there would be lots more help and less burnout. We already have the experience and knowhow, don't forget.

Sounds like you would be a perfect person to organize some dedicated .22/airsoft run and gun types of matches at your local club.

[richardschennberg]

I like the idea of a level 1 rimfire L-10 division. L-10 rules apply with two deviations:

1. Steel need not fall to count for score...

Don't shoot steel designed for centerfire with 22LR. Although you won't get lethal riccochets, you can get bounce-backs that might break the skin or even require minor surgery. For 22s, use steel designed for 22s.

[gino_aki]

I had always thought that a .22 division in USPSA would be great, mostly due to the cost of competing even before all the other divisions were added in. It would be a great place to start out juniors and also be a fun diversion for the adults. If it was only officially sanctioned at the club level that would be fine...after all shooting a .22 IS mostly for grins and giggles. I'm willing to bet that a lot of the "pro" people feel that as hard as sanctioning another division would be, trying to get another league/organization going would be a whole lot tougher. I also have to admit that I never thought about the "dilution" issues or "slippery slope" issues, and those are valid arguments against a .22 Division. I also think Air soft/ BB gun division would be carrying things too far, but if that is ALL you're allowed to shoot in your region or country, I'm not going to be the one to leave those shooters out of the fold.

Admin-wise I'd want a .22 Division to comply as closely as possible with current USPSA rules, with the exceptions for scoring and steel that others have mentioned. Steel would have to be designed for .22's although forward falling poppers should have no problem activating movers. I wouldn't allow "low ready" starts precisely because that would not allow for uprange facing starts. If you don't mandate holster use, the holster makers won't make them. The Optics/Iron Sights subdivide could wait until after the division was up and running to see if it would be necessary. My main administrative change would be to have .22 Division shot as a separate match like Rifle or Shotgun, due to the changes in range equipment that would have to be made for that division.

I always feel that any new shooting game/discipline or offshoot of same that brings new shooters out or helps keep the ones we have is a good thing. If it has the advantages of an already in-place infrastructure and is easy on the pocketbook, so much the better.

[Joe4d]

More clubs and ranges holding matches will grow the sport, not more divisions and delays at existing matches. Also if you look around our sport wont grow by attracting youth. Those kids will quit shooting as soon as daddy stops paying. After they are in their 30's you might see them again. If increasing numbers is a clubs goals they need to focus on the over 30 crowd with the resources, and usually grown or old enough kids that dont need babysitting so the shooters can get away and compete. Either way most of what I said isnt relevant. Bottom line is USPSA is a sport. Sports have general physical requirements. If you cant meet those physical requirements the individual needs to find another sport. It's not our problem if there is or isnt another suitable sport. The sport should not change for an individual. Allowing a 22 division would be like asking the NBA to have adjustable height goals so short people can dunk too.

[Jim Norman]

The other thread got shut down, due I think largely to the all or nothing attitude that some of us may have been seen to take. I hope we can keep this thread open. There is possibly much to be gained and little to be lost.

One point that was repeatedly brought up was that USPSA is a sport requiring certain physical abilities. A comparison was made to the NBA and the question asked was should we lower the baskets to allow short people to play? The answer to that is both Yes and No. Yes, we should for the starter groups, what ever and however we define them, just like the 8 year olds don't play a regulation court or basket height and don't play against the NBA teams, a .22 shooter here would not and should not be asked to play against or be scored against the standard divisions using full power guns.

THink about the following sports that have 'feeder leagues' Basebal, football, hockey, basketball, bowling, golf, tennis, sailing, karate, you name a sport and there are 'youth programs that allow the littler ones to compete amongst themselves in a somewhat to highly modified game, similar to, but different from the sports the 'big-kids' play. Does little league hurt MLB? Not likely! Any MLB players not start out playing as kids? Not likely!

Another question that was brought up was that we'd have to redesign our COF's for the 22 shooter. Not true. Although a .22 won't take down a popper to activate a swinger there is no reason, since the .22 shooter would not be scored against the rest of the competitors, that we could not just pre-activate all the movers that require activation via a popper hit. Junior still gets to shoot the COF and no one else is 'cheated' out of the fun of the movers the way we are used to shooting. You could even go so far as to add a pull cord to activate if you really wanted to.

Will "junior" continue to shoot when Daddy stops paying? Unknown and unknowable. He may, or he may go off and spend 8-10 years getting his act together, BUT having had the exposure starting at an early age, when he is able to get back into our style of sport, he just may return. Certainly he will have a higher likely hood of being a shooter at a younger age than if his initial experience is at 40.

This does not mean we should ignore the 30 somethings as a ripe field for harvesting new members. You have a friend, get him out to the range and get him the basics, then bring him to a practice or a local match. you may hook him as well. There is more than one pond out there to fish in.

I am 100% behind a local club doing what ever it takes to maintain an d grow its shooter base. I am also 100% against USPSA setting up 6 new divisions that mimic the ones we already have, but are for .22s. Basically my reasons are entirely political and I will not bring them into this thread.

Jim

[larry cazes]

Hmmm...not sure why the other thread got closed? Could it have been the cold dead hands post at the end of the thread? :)

Jim, I think we ARE on the same track with this one. We have had juniors come out and shoot our local TASC USPSA match with .22s for fun only and we just had them ignore the steel on the COF. They did not shoot for score and as I recall it worked out well. The desire to shoot for score with the rest of us can also be a good enticement for the shooter to progress to something that can make minor as part of the main match.