BDH Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 As most know, I went down to Ecuador and worked the Latin American Cup and the Ecuador Open this month. I had a different stage in both matches, with one thing in common... both stages had unloaded starts (one was unloaded gun on a table, and one was unloaded gun in a box with the lid shut). Of all the Area and Nationals I have worked over the years, I don't think I remember a single unloaded start (then again, since I am normally working not shooting, I suppose there could have been some out there that I just did not know about). I'm just curious why we don't see this more in the US. Anyone got any thoughts around this?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 Too many already, Like having a drag race that starts with no gas. A track race that starts with the shoes off. A... Or we could do the movie start with the gun holsterd but no round in the chamber? Oh I don;t care for them too much. But I am trying to like them more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911user Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 (edited) In the other countries, the idea of a citizen carrying a loaded pistol is not common. If they truly need one, they would likely have to remove it from storage and load it. It is much more common in the US to have or carry a loaded pistol specifically for self defense so loaded starts, especially from a holster, are more prevelant. EDIT: another factor for the US is that loaded starts are kind of the way it always has been done. Edited July 21, 2007 by 1911user Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 In the other countries, the idea of a citizen carrying a loaded pistol is not common. If they truly need one, they would have to remove it from storage and load it. It is much more common in the US to have or carry a loaded pistol specifically for self defense so loaded starts, especially from a holster, are more prevelant. I thought that if we spent $150 for a holster we wanted to put it to use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 Because it goes against the American "grip it & rip it", just like all the complaints against dropping the 3" washer in a 5 gallon bucket or holding the bat over whichever shoulder was easiest or knocking the package off the table to activate a target. For whatever reason Americans tend to be lazy and want everything to be easy. The blame however goes to the stage designers who don't want their name on that type of stage or Match Directors who don't want to hear complaints about stage designs or approval authorities who decide the shooters in my area/section would complain if I allowed that type of start. The Open/L10 Nats had 4 unholstered starts all from the same designer so it shows that some people are not afraid to be different or worry about what the crowd thinks. I really doubt a shooter would not go to a match just because it had an unloaded gun start or a loaded gun in a box start though I had to go back a long ways in my local match stage designs to find one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 Brian, I vaguely remember a (now classifier) stage from the 2005 Production Nats at Barry, that started with an unloaded gun on the table --- four mini poppers and two paper...... I'm o.k. with loading on the clock occasionally, or with retrieving the gun from somewhere, but I don't want to do it on the majority of stages in a match..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mscott Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 There were 2 at a local match last week. One of them was a classifier. It's not an every match thing, but I seem to run into 3 or 4 a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 I have shot more unloaded starts this yr than ever before. I know I have shot at least 15 stages this yr with unloaded starts or somewhere around that numuber. I shot enough that I actually started practing them in my practice routine. Flyin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 If you look at the roots of our sport, it goes back to the basics of a person carrying a gun. Granted there have been huge changes and things certainly aren't what they were, but at the core of it, people don't get into many gunfights where their heater is on the table next to a loaded mag. I'm not against table starts or box starts because all they really are are distractions to get the shooter out of their comfort zone. Not only that, but it IS a good skill to have. I think anything that tests gun handling skills are useful and worth putting into a match from time to time. With that said, I wouldn't want to see too many table starts or box starts in a match...one or two is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 The last club match that I ran, there was an unloaded gun table start, a "movie" start (mag in gun but no round chambered), and a stage where all mags had to be stashed throughout the stage and off your belt. Why? Because it deviates from the norm. Why would I want to practice the easy stuff at the club level, only to be thwarted at major matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 And BTW-Welcome back Brian! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 Area 5 will have 2 unloaded gun starts this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Front Man Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 Our club has started several stages unloaded this year. I think it's a great skill to learn even if you'll never need it use for anything other than competition. The Iowa Sectional had a stage where you started unloaded/holstered with your ammo up range a short distance. You could place your magazines on the table any way the competitor desired. We learned what worked and what didn't. Great Fun! FM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 Doesnt matter to me as long as it's the same setup for everyone, I once, and only once at that club shot a IDPA match, was a box start loaded chamber and mag. so far so good, but hey you gotta lower the hammer, "What ?" your kidding me right ? This is dangerous not to mention unfair, as the glock, xd's and other striker guys arent lowering their strikers, I was using a Browning Hipower, a gun never meant to have the hammer lowered on a loaded chamber, in fact the was a big red warning in the owners manual "NEVER LOWER HAMMER ON LOADED CHAMBER" oh well shot the stage the way the wanted but never went back, because of several safety related issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted July 21, 2007 Author Share Posted July 21, 2007 And BTW-Welcome back Brian! Micah, thx! I have been around just not posting much. My travel has significantly slowed down so you will probably see me around here and the local ranges more often. Good luck at MRPC tomorrow. I had 'planned' on shooting but manage to step into the weeds behind our prop barn during setup today, and drove a nice, long, rusty spike about half way through my foot. Not sure if I will be able to get a shoe on or walk very well tomorrow, but I am going to try to get out there... As for the unloaded start, maybe I will sneak one in to our club match before year end... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middle Man Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Just shot a unloaded start today...ironic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 The last club match that I ran, there was an unloaded gun table start, a "movie" start (mag in gun but no round chambered) Just shot most of the Columbia Cascade section match today. One unloaded/holstered start, one unloaded gun on table/all ammo on belt start. How do you deal with revolver shooters on the "movie" start?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Good luck at MRPC tomorrow. I had 'planned' on shooting but manage to step into the weeds behind our prop barn during setup today, and drove a nice, long, rusty spike about half way through my foot. Not sure if I will be able to get a shoe on or walk very well tomorrow, but I am going to try to get out there... Heal up fast Brian! Figures that you travel to the far corners of the Earth unscathed, only to return to your home club and be assaulted by a metallic spike. Shooting with lockjaw is no laughing matter, so please be sure to get a tetanus shot! How do you deal with revolver shooters on the "movie" start?? The way I dealt with this issue (mind you, Level 1 match ) I made a provision that all revo shooters were exempt from the empty chamber rule, and had them start will all six cylinders loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Shot a big 3 gun match not long ago with ALL starts unloaded.... So strange... Run into unloaded starts a lot more frequently at IDPA matches than USPSA or other matches around this area..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 In my experience IPSC matches do have more unloaded starts and guns-not-on-your-person starts (sometimes it seems like half the stages you don't use your holster), but they seem to have less of the "hands on respective knees, legs crossed at the ankles, at least-3-vertebrea-touching-the-back-of-the-chair start positions specified down to the wire like we have here. If it's not "sitting on the (real) jet-ski, hands on handlebars as demonstrated (they do that "as demonstrated" thing a lot), then it's just "As per 8.1". I think it's because here the start position is deemed to be freestyle in the amount of bending, twisting and contorting allowed so long as you comply. where there it's generally not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaredB Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Brian,I vaguely remember a (now classifier) stage from the 2005 Production Nats at Barry, that started with an unloaded gun on the table --- four mini poppers and two paper...... I'm o.k. with loading on the clock occasionally, or with retrieving the gun from somewhere, but I don't want to do it on the majority of stages in a match..... Sounds like Where's the Ammo. CM 06-11 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=36994 I especially dont like unloaded gun starts where ammo is on the belt. I have muscle memory built up from reloading practice that I sometimes forget to chamber a round. This does not seem to happen when magazine is on the table or some place other than my belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Area 1 has one this year. Good for some but unless things go REALLY bad I wont have to load a gun to start shooting (at least at home). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 The last unloaded start I shot was at a local IDPA match. I was shooting my Beretta 92FS Brigadier, the only gun I own with a slide-mounted safety, and naturally I engaged the safety when I retracted the slide. It only took two trigger pulls until I realized what I had done. I've been looking for a 92G ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Upcoming Golden Bullet Championship has quite a few unloaded handgun starts. Unloaded in holster, briefcase, box type stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 Heal up fast Brian! Figures that you travel to the far corners of the Earth unscathed, only to return to your home club and be assaulted by a metallic spike. Shooting with lockjaw is no laughing matter, so please be sure to get a tetanus shot! Micah, TRUST ME!! All my shots, etc., are very current.... even the really strange ones, and yes, I did follow my Doctor's orders and finished all my malaria medicine (although, I did meet a local Doc and he said that while there are things to be cautious of, malaria really wasn't one of them, so I wonder if the CDC goes a little overboard on recommendations. Then again, better safe than sorry)! All that said, I would go back to South America in a heartbeat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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