Skydiver Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 At the match I put on yesterday, I had the shooters do three unloaded starts out of seven stages. On one stage I used the Mini-Mart table and shelf prop. The gun started on the shelf and all ammo to be used was on the table top. I made a shooting box that was roughly the size of the table that the shooters were confined to. Another stage had the gun on a barrel about two yards downrange of the shooter who was facing uprange with all ammo on their belt. The last stage had the pistol in the holster with all ammo to be used on a table downrange of the start position. This was a 26 round field course, so shooters had to grab a couple of magazines and stow them before engaging the targets.mattk Those stages were great Matt! The last one was a perfect learning opportunity for me as it did exactly what it was designed to do: provide a distraction from the shooting. I drew, loaded a mag from the table engaged the first array; loaded another mag from the table, engaged the second array; and only as I was loading and then preparing to run to engage the last set of targets did I realize that I had forgotten the first part of my plan which was to put at least one mag in the pouch. So I ended up grabbing the last mag and shooting the majority of the last set of targets strong hand only. I learned that I can deal with unloaded gun on table and ammo either on body or on table, but I need to also be able to handle, unloaded gun holstered, and ammo on table. - Ants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENE S Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 With the unloaded gun start, you must remember that production division can NOT have 11 rounds in the mag that the shooter is going to put into thier gun at the start signal.See US appendix D9. 10 rounds max in any mag after the start signal.... Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 With the unloaded gun start, you must remember that productiondivision can NOT have 11 rounds in the mag that the shooter is going to put into thier gun at the start signal.See US appendix D9. 10 rounds max in any mag after the start signal.... Gene And those poor guys in L10! Good grief what about the downtrodden in SS, 8 (eight) rounds! How can anybody possibly shoot this stuff without 29 +1? (wisea$$ mode off) David C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 With the unloaded gun start, you must remember that productiondivision can NOT have 11 rounds in the mag that the shooter is going to put into thier gun at the start signal.See US appendix D9. 10 rounds max in any mag after the start signal.... Gene And those poor guys in L10! Good grief what about the downtrodden in SS, 8 (eight) rounds! How can anybody possibly shoot this stuff without 29 +1? (wisea$$ mode off) David C What if we only had 8 rounds down...what would we do then? Wise A** always ON.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket35 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 (edited) There were two stages that started with the gun unloaded in the 2007 IL Section this past weekend......you also had to retreive magazines from the location of the gun as well- thus not having any on your belt at the start of the stage. Nice twist the the usual starting position here in the US. Stage 2 Course Description Edited July 30, 2007 by Rocket35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 There were two stages that started with the gun unloaded in the 2007 IL Section this past weekend......you also had to retreive magazines from the location of the gun as well- thus not having any on your belt at the start of the stage. Nice twist the the usual starting position here in the US. Stage 2 Course Description Your link does not get you there.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 What if we only had 8 rounds down...what would we do then?Wise A** always ON.... Well TL I think that with the advent of the "slidelock reload" that many (most?) of the folks shooting today have never heard of, let alone practiced, "round management". For me the greatest advantage of hi-caps (limited or open) is that I don't have to reach all the way around to the middle of my back to get that last reload! David C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 What if we only had 8 rounds down...what would we do then?Wise A** always ON.... Well TL I think that with the advent of the "slidelock reload" that many (most?) of the folks shooting today have never heard of, let alone practiced, "round management". For me the greatest advantage of hi-caps (limited or open) is that I don't have to reach all the way around to the middle of my back to get that last reload! David C Ain't it the truth, on both counts.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket35 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 (edited) Try this one...... Unloaded Start It is the third video of the 2nd post...... Edited July 30, 2007 by Rocket35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket35 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Photobucket sux! Doesn't wanna cooperate, I can view it when I preview the post, but once it is posted it goes to the generic webpage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Tightloop, I agree that certain skills are not practiced anymore, or forced on shooters to perform. It amazes me how many shooters complain when the course descrip. reads weakhand only or stronghand only or whatever. It makes me laugh when you give them something to carry and they try all sorts of contortions to use just so they can avoid having to shoot the gun wronghanded or one handed. When if they would just practice the skill they would see that its easier to just do it. One shooter described it as having to "eat their vegetables", which is something you should do but nobody wants too. As to round capacity concerning production, limited 10, and so on. I feel that its underhanded for an RO to intentionally, not mention in the course briefing, "be aware of the round limitations for your magazines". Yeah, its the shooters ultimate responsibility, but RO's are there to assist us, not try and catch us in a boo boo. No I was not one of the victims!!! Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 (edited) Snip...As to round capacity concerning production, limited 10, and so on. I feel that its underhanded for an RO to intentionally, not mention in the course briefing, "be aware of the round limitations for your magazines". Yeah, its the shooters ultimate responsibility, but RO's are there to assist us, not try and catch us in a boo boo. No I was not one of the victims!!! Trapr Why is it underhanded for the RO to not mention something that is not a requirement in 3.2.1. And 3.2.2 says I MUST READ IT VERBATIM to every squad. So a squad of Open shooters comes along and I am working a 26 round COF, how stupid is it going to sound to tell them to be aware of round limitations. RO's are there to ensure that you complete the COF safely. When a shooter comes up I don't ask them if they understand the COF, I direct them to the shooting area, check for eyes & ears & give the "LAMR". I have had the 5th or 6th shooter in a squad ask for the starting position. I am there to ensure that my stage is run per USPSA rules in a safe manner but shooters are not my children so I am not going to babysit them. I shoot SS and Revo and no one has ever asked if I know the round limitations of my magazines. Edited for missed words must be a Revo day. Edited July 31, 2007 by LPatterson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 I have to agree with Trapr...I think the RO is there to assist the shooter...if that means telling them the start position, etc. then you should do it and move along...Being an RO is like working in retail, you have to help the stupid ones too...so do't ignore them or bitch about them, just do your job as an RO or step out and let someone else do it who will assist the shooters, all of them.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 (edited) Its my opinion!!!!!! An RO can be a by the book RO, or a helpful, pleasant, friendly by the book RO. IMO given your way of running a stage, it would make for a very long day, as far as never having had someone remind you of something you forgot must be very sad. Trapr Edited July 31, 2007 by bigbrowndog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted August 1, 2007 Author Share Posted August 1, 2007 Couple of things... First, LeRoy is correct in that it must be read VERBATIM! And as we all know, that is so every competitor hears the exact same instructions to insure as fair of a competition as possible. Second, while I agree with Trapr's comments about 'RO's being helpful'... this gets a little weird at times. At the 2001 Nationals in Barry (right after 9/11) I gave a competitor LAMR. He played with his gun a bunch inserting and dropping mags, but ended up holstered with no magazine in the well, and then assumed the start position. Well, the 'helpful' side of me came out (especially since he had traveled from a foreign Country to get here when even US competitors were having a hard time getting in to Barry) so I asked him 'Are You Ready' more than once, and he finally reached around, felt the empty magwell, smiled, loaded and away we went. While it felt like I did the 'right' thing at the time, it didn't take long for me to realize that I had just influenced the match outcome. (BTW, this situation was fixed in the Green rulebook under 8.1 '....the Range Officier must not take any action as, the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun...'). I HATE IT when I see something about to happen that is going to hurt the competitor, but I also know that I can NOT say anything to him/her unless I say the exact same thing to every competitor (which brings us back to LeRoy's post)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 I HATE IT when I see something about to happen that is going to hurt the competitor, but I also know that I can NOT say anything to him/her unless I say the exact same thing to every competitor (which brings us back to LeRoy's post)... BDH, I had the same situation at a major match recently. Those are the calls that make working matches hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 After thinking about this thread for awhile I've come to the conclusion the carnival stunts are not only annoying as hell and have nothing to do with the shooting but are a wonderfully practical addition to our sport simply because they are annoying and distract from the shooting. Monkey tossing and stick pony riding and unloaded starts require us to shift gears at the beginning or in the middle of a gun fight. While this is not conducive of the best possible hit factors it does require us to perform while pissed off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 After thinking about this thread for awhile I've come to the conclusion the carnival stunts are not only annoying as hell and have nothing to do with the shooting but are a wonderfully practical addition to our sport simply because they are annoying and distract from the shooting. Monkey tossing and stick pony riding and unloaded starts require us to shift gears at the beginning or in the middle of a gun fight. While this is not conducive of the best possible hit factors it does require us to perform while pissed off. Some of us are imbued with the ability to let things kind of slide off our back, like water off a duck, some of us are not.. I know what you are thinking, but my old boss summed it up best when he said, "...Tightloop, you may never be right, but you are never in doubt." Sometimes folks assume your lack of response implies acceptance...I don't think I am in that boat, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 We just had another unloaded start at the Area 8 Championship. Flyin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herky Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 I don't see the allure of the unloaded start. By no means am I "tactical/practical", but how many would carry unloaded or keep your "go to" house gun in this condition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herky Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Yes, I know it is a game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket35 Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Looks like there will be two more at Area 5....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 After thinking about this thread for awhile I've come to the conclusion the carnival stunts are not only annoying as hell and have nothing to do with the shooting but are a wonderfully practical addition to our sport simply because they are annoying and distract from the shooting. Monkey tossing and stick pony riding and unloaded starts require us to shift gears at the beginning or in the middle of a gun fight. While this is not conducive of the best possible hit factors it does require us to perform while pissed off. +1 to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 There was one at the WV state IDPA and the Area 8 in the last 2 weeks. they have been pretty popular and seem to be growing in popularity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 I don't see the allure of the unloaded start. By no means am I "tactical/practical", but how many would carry unloaded or keep your "go to" house gun in this condition? Hmmm, how about gun starts unloaded and field stripped. Shooter starts with barrel brush in one hand and bottle of Hoppe's #9 in the other. Upon start signal, assemble, load and engage targets.... More practical now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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