Unloaded Gun Starts

[HuskySig]

At the match I put on yesterday, I had the shooters do three unloaded starts out of seven stages. On one stage I used the Mini-Mart table and shelf prop. The gun started on the shelf and all ammo to be used was on the table top. I made a shooting box that was roughly the size of the table that the shooters were confined to. Another stage had the gun on a barrel about two yards downrange of the shooter who was facing uprange with all ammo on their belt. The last stage had the pistol in the holster with all ammo to be used on a table downrange of the start position. This was a 26 round field course, so shooters had to grab a couple of magazines and stow them before engaging the targets.

mattk

[Jim Norman]

We just did an unloaded start at the AWARE. Seated on toilet, door closed, gun on table outside the "Outhouse" slide forward, hammer down on an empty chamber. On signal, get your gun and engage targets. Only time so far I have not liked my new Swenson. I used to grip from the rear, now it is over the top to stoke.

We have also done unoloaded starts at our club from time to time including unloaded rifle and shotgun starts.

Jim

[BDH]

As always, thx for all the feedback. 'Maybe' these are more common in the US than I realized!

[geezer-lock]

I have even seen an unloaded magazine start. Empty gun, empty mag in a drawer and rounds loose in the drawer also. To top it off the drawer was down range. Not a USPSA match but that was one of two I encounted last year.

I said in another thread that the "draw to target" start has all but disappeared in USPSA. Isn't that a skill we should test some?

David C

[JFD]

I ran into an unloaded magazine start in an outlaw match once. Grab ammo out of a container, load up mag, load up gun, and have at it. Everyone I saw put as many rounds as they needed in the container; I dumped 100 in so I could just grab a handful. I personally think of something like this as a "moron" start, duplicating the totally unprepared. However I'm guessing the designer just wanted to try something different, and those familiar with their gear trounched those who can't load a mag without a tool, or had to otherswise futz around loading the mag.....hmmmm...maybe it WAS an actual shooting challenge.

I don't think Americans are lazy because they don't like monkey motions that have absolutely nothing to do with the shooting challenge. I think we prefer well designed stages instead, btu some designers are too lazy to do that.

I've run into maybe 4 unloaded starts this year.

[mjbine]

Shot a big 3 gun match not long ago with ALL starts unloaded....

So strange... Run into unloaded starts a lot more frequently at IDPA matches than USPSA or other matches around this area.....

Starting with an unloaded tactical shotgun would suck! I would need more shellholders.

[Matt P.]

I designed a stage with an unloaded gun and starting about 30 feet away from it. So at start signal you would run up to the gun, load it and start shooting, then there were about 7 targets that you had to take moving backwards. I did it because it was different. People were initially reluctant about the backwards movement but once they did it, they liked it. The older USPSA dogs complained about running up to the gun. I hear complaints from the older shooters about "what does that have to do with shooting?" . I guess it is my belief (being a newer shooter) that if you can design it, and it is safe (without being a circus) why not throw it in? it will be different then the stages we shoot over and over again that just look a little different or are in a different bay.

Again, just my $.02

[geezer-lock]

...The older USPSA dogs complained about running up to the gun. I hear complaints from the older shooters about "what does that have to do with shooting?" . I guess it is my belief (being a newer shooter) that if you can design it, and it is safe (without being a circus) why not throw it in? ...

Again, just my $.02

I think you will get more grousing from the out-of-shape regardless of their age when you seperate the shooting some distance from the starting. And there is a HUGE thread on carnival (circus) props that will keep you entertained for hours! Monkey motions and prop tossing also have an enormous discussion thread.

You likely will find considerable reisitance to the notion of "why not throw it in". Most of us are looking for some balance, especially when we travel long distances and pay out big bucks to shoot. Local matches are not totally exempt from the rules of good design although everyone will cut you a good deal of slack at that level.

None of what you advocate is bad and I give you points for stepping up and doing the work and supporting the sport.

David C

[JThompson]

I'm MD for the local match coming up and I have one where the gun is on the table a few feet away and the start position is sitting on a chair with hands on two tape rings on the legs. The chair is facing uprange. First mag can either be on the table or in your belt. I might make it gun on table first mag in drawer, but need to look at it when I set it up. I don't want to get to the point where the everyone is saying... wtf?

JT

[outerlimits]

back in the early 90's i did a stage for a major match that was to start with an unloaded gun. ended up the stage was sponsored by safariland, so guess what got changed??

[Jim Norman]

JT,

Sounds perfectly acceptable. What we attempt to do is make the shooting the deciding factor, not the foot race. In other words, having to sprint 100 yards, or do 50 push-ups before recoveing your gun and engaging the targets is not what most of us want and sadly not something many of us are capable of anymore.

Out the taple 2-3 steps away, put the gun in the drawer, put the mag in the drawer as well. Make sure you CANNOT pull the drawer out of the table. and put a piece of carpet inthe drawer to protect the guns.

We have even done a lock box stage. Gun is in a locked container, with mag azine in the box, key is in hand, box is bolted to the table, On signal, unlock box, retrive gun, load and engage targets. Not really a baad idea to be able to do this since the law says you cannot leave a loaded gun lying around anymore. Just have to make sure you have plenty of locks and keys as well as a bolt cutter if someone trashes the lock!

Jim

[JFlowers]

I think one of the key concepts this whole thread points out is balance. Unloaded gun on table, unloaded gun in box, and similiar starts have relevance and are things we all need to practice. However, the 50 yard sprint to the unloaded gun is just a bit much. And yes, those of us who are out of shape will complain loudly! LOL!

However, I do disagree with the whole group that says that carnival starts have no place in the sport. Why? Because along with relevance you have to balance fun. And the carnival start/stage every now and then is fun.

Now I just have to start shooting again!

[JThompson]

JT,

Sounds perfectly acceptable. What we attempt to do is make the shooting the deciding factor, not the foot race. In other words, having to sprint 100 yards, or do 50 push-ups before recoveing your gun and engaging the targets is not what most of us want and sadly not something many of us are capable of anymore.

Out the taple 2-3 steps away, put the gun in the drawer, put the mag in the drawer as well. Make sure you CANNOT pull the drawer out of the table. and put a piece of carpet inthe drawer to protect the guns.

We have even done a lock box stage. Gun is in a locked container, with mag azine in the box, key is in hand, box is bolted to the table, On signal, unlock box, retrive gun, load and engage targets. Not really a baad idea to be able to do this since the law says you cannot leave a loaded gun lying around anymore. Just have to make sure you have plenty of locks and keys as well as a bolt cutter if someone trashes the lock!

Jim

Thanks for the input Jim... If I go with a lock, in this or other, I will take those thoughts into consideration. It's the kind of detail a first timer might overlook.

JT

[Jim Norman]

...However, I do disagree with the whole group that says that carnival starts have no place in the sport. Why? Because along with relevance you have to balance fun. And the carnival start/stage every now and then is fun.

Now I just have to start shooting again!

It is all good so long as the shootiung is the decider. Unloaded starts of anytype, monkey tosses, duck walking, snake charming, whatever. Just don't make every stage a Royal CF. One per match is enough, especially if it generates laughter. In fact, laughter is a good judge of the design in these matters. Also there are the basics that should never be ignored.

Standing arms length form a target, gun on table, surrender start, two shots. then enter the balance of the stage. How about running 50 yard standards? or just throw a USP out at 40 yards. or a PP, but make it activate a closer target so you have to do more than just engagte it.

I love this game. If I didn't would I spend the time I do, building, designing and doing admin work? THis is plinking on steroids!

Jim

[Flexmoney]

This might be a good point for us all to review Section 1 of the rule book.

Things like balance, practicality, shooting challenge, etc...are covered there and give us a basis to build upon. From that, individual matches have the freedom to operate with what works for them.

[tightloop]

Not a rant,and not trying to hijack the thread, but I was reading some comments from Chuck Taylor's website yesterday and his comments are applicable here..

The "P" in IPSC is a thing of the past...there is no more Practical...this sport was initially viewed as a means to an end to enhance ones ability with a pistol for defensive purposes, but when the carnival atmosphere or the physical demands (read running) of the stage overshadow the shooting aspects and in any way help to determine the stage or HOA winner then it has turned into just another game...he goes on to say that there have been some good things come from the ranks of those that play the game, like the speed load, but he can only shake his head when he views Open holsters, Open gun cpnfigurations, 29 round magazines, 32 round field courses and the Monkey Toss involved with some stages...

I agree...

If you enjoy it as a game, great...but the evolution from the start to current day took a drastic turn along the way. There is a little something for everyone here I think..I don't have to shoot in the Space Gun Division if I don't like what it involves, and can overlook some of the big field courses (cause if you got a big stick mag, you want to use it) but the Monkey Toss and carnival atmosphere could go away for ever and not be missed by more than a tiny few...

My .02 worth.

[Flexmoney]

What some view as a monkey toss can be just a distraction from the shooting. Which...is likely pretty practical ?

(Again...Match Directors have the freedom to design stages in any number of ways.)

[shred]

Shooter R misses throwing the washer into the bucket for a 10 point procedural. Shooter T makes it. If T wins the match by 5 points who is the better practical shooter?

'Pressure 'and 'different' and 'distraction' are fine.. up to the point when it's no longer about the shooting.

[tightloop]

Have they designed all avaliable non Monkey Toss stages yet?...don't think so, so what does carrying a stick pony during the course of fire really accomplish...admittedly some of us in our 2nd or 3rd childhood might have better stick horse technique than some others, but it just diminishes the shooting and like Shred said...what happens if a really dumb prop decides the stage or match...throw out the stage...?

[Jim Norman]

Props that require manipulation are fine. Tossing something across the course and being lucky enough to have it land in and stay in the target area is generally not so good.

Look at it this way, you MIGHT be carrying something important, to have to retrieve something important (Briefcase anyone), but riding a stick pony is not only extremely unlikely to occur in real life, but could also be very dangerous.

I am in favor of drawers, unloaded starts, kicking down a door, carrying a bag or briefcase, even depositing an envelope into the mail box, but I think allowing one to carry a stuffed toy by sticking its ear in your mouth is just plain wrong. That IS carnival.

Jim

[bigbrowndog]

I disagree, the "Accuracy" that is one part of our DVC, does not state that it must be with a firearm, tossing the monkey, washer, basketball, pouring water into a tube, etc. all require accuracy in order for it to be performed in the least amount of time, or without penalty. Doing so under time constraints, adds to the difficulty, and stress.

Giving the MD leeway in course configuration, is a good way of placing additional stress into the shooting environment. Having a LARGE penalty assigned to the task, I agree is not fair, if it allows that penalty to have an unprecedented change in the stage results. However, amongst shooters of the same skill level, a procedural is something that the individual shooter has to determine if its to their benefit to take or not. Many a GM has taken a procedural because it was worth the penalty/points.

Its all part of the GAME.

Trapr

[tightloop]

Well it is just a game...but sometimes it is hard for those of you who do not have a historical perspective of the sport to understand that some of the changes which have been made, might not be good changes; and two of those include the carnival atmosphere and the Monkey Toss...

[bigbrowndog]

While it may be true, we do have to take the bad with the good. Of the good, is the increased interest in the sport, and increased oppurtunity to participate, because we have so many matches to choose from.

I remember when I started, there was one or two matches a month, and I couldn't wait for the next one. Heaven forbid if there was a cancellation, that was unbearable. Now, in my area we have matches every weekend, and both days of the weekend. We matches sharing days.

All this has been brought about because, people have felt comfortable going to matches, and not being thought of as "Survivalists' or "Rambo", or "Mercenaries". Which in the early days, was what alot of us were thought to be by the general public.

So embrace the "carnival" atmosphere, and "monkey toss" its just a small part of what you don't care for.

Kind of like having to clean your guns, you may not like to do it, or put it off. But at least you have them to clean.

Trapr

[tightloop]

Well Trapr,

You might remember those days too...but it was the guys in full camo or a T shirt that said "I just kill 'em, let God sort 'em out", that were the "bad" element....they finally stopped coming after a couple of yrs...

That whole argument of Gamesmen vs Survivalist was nonsense anyway...EVERYONE I shot around knew it was a game but it was a game that avoided all the silly frilly add-ons of the Monkey Toss et al, that kept most of us interested...Let's face it, most of us early shooters who were serious about it at all, have probably been to several if not more schools at Gunsite or ones locally in which Cooper of someone of his ilk taught...IIRC, there were no Monkey Toss stages at any of those gatherings...

Embracing the carnival atmosphere can be left to those who haven't been shooting it long enough to remember when there weren't 170mm mags and a sea of targets during a field course, when there were (how shall I say this diplomatically,) different skills required of the shooter than are tested now: some of which were decidedly non-carnival in nature. I think with the advent of SS gaining approved status, it is a stride in a direction which makes it easier for some us to tolerate those nonshooting distractions to some extent ...

Everyone doesn't like the same things, and I know it is tough to offer something that everyone embraces...but let's have some common sense and moderation...no granade toss, stick ponys or the like...and keep the number of similar stages in moderation...guess I will have to live with that....

[jasmap]

We had another unloaded gun start at Rio today. We have them regularly.