Open Gun Prices

[lgbmike]

I have been researching and thinking about going to open for some time now. I really like Brazos and the Bedell guns. There is one thing I cannot understand. Why does Brazos open 5" chrome custom cost $5300 and Bedell sells the same thing for $3000? Is there something I am missing? I would have to say that both guns will "drive tacks" and not "puke" on you during a match, so what gives.

Thanks,

Michael

[XRe]

Any way you look at it - they're not the same thing. They're made from somewhat similar parts (roughly speaking) and are open class guns - but the similarities basically end there. See if you can find examples of each around you and try them out - should be easy to determine which you like better from there...

I highly recommend not buying an Open gun solely on price... (that's not saying one or the other is better or worse due to their price or anything like that - I really don't hold an opinion here). Instead, find what works best for you - these two guns will shoot completely differently in your hands - you should buy the one that suits your game best.

[dfwmiket]

BOTH of them build quality guns, and you won't be sorry either way. You'll have to walk a fine line here because forum rules state no vendor bashing---even though that's not the intent, it could be misconstrued that way. I'm fortunate enough to have handled both, and they are indeed nice. For me, Bob & Brazos is local, so if I have a problem--drop in the car and drive is better than mail, but that said, I may have Dan build me a "spare" when I get extra cash. Wifey is currently shooting a Brazos, and loves it. Also, I've talked to both Bob and Chuck/Dan and they are both awesome to deal with.

Shoot both, and buy which YOU like better........ as Xre said, price isn't a good indicator. Good luck.

-Mike

[martyg00]

Michael,

You know, we have a fantistic gun builder right here in St. Louis, Otto Matyska.

I have been shooting open class with his guns for right at 20 years now.

He can build anything you want.

His phone number 314-638-3327

Marty

A-7424

You can also PM me if you would like to chat further about open guns.

[rwmagnus]

I generally think it's a good idea to shoot several different Open guns to get an idea of what you might like. The marketing word is generally. Changing loads, springs, grip etc can change a gun you don't like to one you do like and vice versa. Still Open guns are so different testing out your friends guns should help you. Can't comment on pricing and wait times, they are what they are but there are many custom gun builders to choose from in addition to Bob and Dan. BTW I have a Limited gun from Bob and an Open 9mm from Jim Anglin both are great guns and tons of fun to shoot.

[smokshwn]

To answer your question directly as to cost. Generally any of the respected smith's will build you a 100% reliable and functional gun. Much of the cost/price relates to their particular demand and the level of cosmetic finish. When you start adding french borders, custom checkering, machining, slide cuts etc the cost can quickly escalate. This oftentimes explaines the difference in price from a top tier gun and a top tier "pretty" gun.

[redwoods]

Just for your info, the Bedell gun is blued, the hard chrome is extra for the 3000 price

[shooterbenedetto]

IN OUR IPSC GAME, RELIABILITY COUNTS SO YOU CAN FOCUS ON YOU SHOOTING GAME!!

My suggestion, is to build a well suited gun that can bring you to Master or GM class, this way, you get used to the

gun that will make you win and NO MODIFICATION IS NECESSARY in th long run. Invest in Ammo and shooting training!!

[martyg00]

IN OUR IPSC GAME, RELIABILITY COUNTS SO YOU CAN FOCUS ON YOU SHOOTING GAME!!

My suggestion, is to build a well suited gun that can bring you to Master or GM class, this way, you get used to the

gun that will make you win and NO MODIFICATION IS NECESSARY in th long run. Invest in Ammo and shooting training!!

AMEN

Marty

[MoNsTeR]

The answer to any question about price is ALWAYS "supply and demand".

[chuckbradley]

The answer to any question about price is ALWAYS "supply and demand".

I agree that this applies most of the time. I have to respectfully disagree with the ALWAYS part of the statement. Different motives may be a factor as well.

[DJPoLo]

I am in no way trying to make Dan or Bob lose a sale, but also keep in mind that there are often lots of Open guns available on the classified section of this forum as well at the USPSA.org classified section.

-Chet

Edited July 9, 2007 by DJPoLo

[Carlos]

Those are just variations on STIs.

Don't forget that world champ Jarrett used a Para & beat all other makes. And Graufel uses a Gold Team Tanfoglio. And there is the Caspian back on the market - plus John Nagel is building open 9mm major Glocks. Plus the CZ guys are using the new Tactical Sports 9mm to build open guns. Why limit yourself?

[chuckbradley]

Those are just variations on STIs.

Don't forget that world champ Jarrett used a Para & beat all other makes. And Graufel uses a Gold Team Tanfoglio. And there is the Caspian back on the market - plus John Nagel is building open 9mm major Glocks. Plus the CZ guys are using the new Tactical Sports 9mm to build open guns. Why limit yourself?

I could ask that very same question.

[PaulW]

I 2nd what Chuck just said.....

[AA-Wolf]

IN OUR IPSC GAME, RELIABILITY COUNTS SO YOU CAN FOCUS ON YOU SHOOTING GAME!!

My suggestion, is to build a well suited gun that can bring you to Master or GM class, this way, you get used to the

gun that will make you win and NO MODIFICATION IS NECESSARY in th long run. Invest in Ammo and shooting training!!

This is SO true. I have a modified factory gun that has run well in the past but lately is having the occasional jam for no apparent reason. This has thrown my whole game into a downward spin. I tend to focus more on the gun now then my actual shooting. My shooting has suffered from this, be it I'm no M or GM.

I can say I will be seeing a fully built custom gun in the near future. The cost may be high but the savings in frustration is priceless. Nothing worse then gun problems taking you out of the running.

[benny hill]

You can get used to any good open gun, just shoot it awhile. Again it's the driver, not so much the car.

[KGentry]

IMHO getting an open gun is a different road to take than getting a limited gun. They are picky, need lots of attention and if you dont treat them right they will just stop on you at the very moment you need them

Getting a good quality open gun from a well know builder that shoots USPSA is the right way to go period!!!!!! Yes, you can get lucky with a facotry gun, but it is only a matter of time before you get frustrated. One more thing, get tuned mags!!! Open Class is not for the wallet weary no matter what anyone tells you and I think everyone will agree with that part

Edit (spell impared)

Edited July 12, 2007 by KGentry

[Charles Bond]

I have a Brazos and have over 25,000 rounds through it with out one malfunction. I live in Georgia and if I need anything, I send it to Texas and Bob is always ready to turn it around quick for me. While I have not had to send back the open gun, I did send back my limted guns a couple of times to have items added.

If you have had the opportunity to read Bob's columns in Front Sight, you have no doubt reached the conclusion that not only does he know how to build a winning gun, he can actually explain why what he does works so well.

I have handled several Bedell guns and while I do not own one, I have several friends that do and all of them have good things to say about these guns. They are however not fitted the same and I do not believe they are quite as detailed but it is not always about pretty. I have also never heard anything but kind words from shooters who use his guns.

BTW--Check the BE and USPSA classifieds. I saw someone just this week who had two slightly used Brazos open guns and he wanted to sell one of them and the buyer could choose. They were very reasonably priced to the extent that I am very tempted to delete this post and buy one of them myself.

Charles Bond

[GeorgeInNePa]

Those are just variations on STIs.

Don't forget that world champ Jarrett used a Para & beat all other makes. And Graufel uses a Gold Team Tanfoglio. And there is the Caspian back on the market - plus John Nagel is building open 9mm major Glocks. Plus the CZ guys are using the new Tactical Sports 9mm to build open guns. Why limit yourself?

Do you think the Factory shooters only have one Open Gun? The OP will only have one.

An STI/SVI will hold a better value when you decide to sell it because you want something different. It will also last longer, too.

----------------------------------------

OP,

Shoot a BUNCH of different Open setups, then decide what you like. THEN find a good 'smith who is local, if possible. You don't always need a "name". Also, take the advice already offered and look at a few used offerings when you are ready to buy, preferably a gun that is known to function, ask around.

[Jon Merricks]

Michael,

You know, we have a fantistic gun builder right here in St. Louis, Otto Matyska.

I would start there before I looked any where else. We have some really good gunsmith here but I always suggest checking out the local guy first when building an open gun. As already stated they can be very tricky and having someone right there you can stop by to have a look at it from time to time could be a good choice.

[ChuckS]

+1 on what Jon says about a local smith. Our guy, Will O'Hara has his shop not far from the range at Norco. I shoot a match, stop off at Will's and have him tweak the guns that he has built for me. Round trip to the 'smith without spending $100 on silly next day air charges!

Later,

Chuck

PS: This can be a hazard, though. I stopped by for a tweak and wound up starting another open gun project.

[Dan Sierpina]

Make sure when talking with a local smith, that he shoots the game, and isn't just a parts changer.

[MoNsTeR]

The answer to any question about price is ALWAYS "supply and demand".

I agree that this applies most of the time. I have to respectfully disagree with the ALWAYS part of the statement. Different motives may be a factor as well.

You are correct that non-monetary/non-material factors will play a part, but wrong to think that this makes any difference.

For example, most popular 'smiths, even those that have absurd waiting lists, do not raise their price to a level where the waiting list is reasonable, even though they would make more money. They might feel that reducing their waiting list reduces their prestige and would reduce business enough that profits fall. More likely, I think they feel that beyond some "reasonable" price, rationing their services by willingness-to-wait is somehow "fairer" than rationing by willingness-to-pay (which is of course their right). The truth is these are simply factors that influence the position and shape of the (conceptual) supply curve.

On the other side, consumers may desire a particular 'smith's product for what one might deem "irrational" reasons such as where he/she hails from, their internet charisma or lack thereof, cosmetic style, and so on. Again these are simply factors influencing demand.

Of course everyone realizes that supply and demand curves as we draw them on graphs do not actually exist, they are just a modeling tool. But the concept is powerful enough to scry into each and every facet of human exchange.

[chuckbradley]

The answer to any question about price is ALWAYS "supply and demand".

I agree that this applies most of the time. I have to respectfully disagree with the ALWAYS part of the statement. Different motives may be a factor as well.

You are correct that non-monetary/non-material factors will play a part, but wrong to think that this makes any difference.

For example, most popular 'smiths, even those that have absurd waiting lists, do not raise their price to a level where the waiting list is reasonable, even though they would make more money. They might feel that reducing their waiting list reduces their prestige and would reduce business enough that profits fall. More likely, I think they feel that beyond some "reasonable" price, rationing their services by willingness-to-wait is somehow "fairer" than rationing by willingness-to-pay (which is of course their right). The truth is these are simply factors that influence the position and shape of the (conceptual) supply curve.

On the other side, consumers may desire a particular 'smith's product for what one might deem "irrational" reasons such as where he/she hails from, their internet charisma or lack thereof, cosmetic style, and so on. Again these are simply factors influencing demand.

Of course everyone realizes that supply and demand curves as we draw them on graphs do not actually exist, they are just a modeling tool. But the concept is powerful enough to scry into each and every facet of human exchange.

Hmm... I would think for non-monetary/non-material factors to play a part, something you just said was correct, that it would have to make a difference. If it doesnt make any difference then it didnt play a part. Which is it? The absolutes of Any and Always is what I think may be my issue. I know some things that make a difference in price and simple supply & demand arent always the reason. I know of one big name gunsmith who told me he didnt want to build CUSTOM guns anymore so he was going to get a large price to steer buyers to a factory based gun so he can sell more and have more time. I realize he is effecting the demand side by creating less demand but at the same time giving the impression to the average buyer that its because of the demand the price is as high as it is or that it is that much better or majical. Instead of creating the majical , highly demanded product by setting an artificial price we choose to create an image of offering the best value. There are factors such as what image is trying to be created that play a large roll in the reason for the OP's question. I guess you could say that both supply and demand can be manipulated by the manufacturer and its still a result of supply and demand but it is allot more complicated than what most would think of when you say supply & demand. Thats why I originally had the issue with the ALWAYS added into your statement.

Edited July 19, 2007 by chuckbradley