Limited 10 Or Single Stack Division?

[ima45dv8]

......would you support a club that rotates what divisions are entered or awarded?

I don't think I would. I prefer to choose what I want to shoot when I want to shoot it. I'd rather not have to check a calendar to see if it's OK to play Production this month.

Edited September 29, 2006 by ima45dv8

[Bob Hostetter]

A few points first....... I compete in every division USPSA offers except Revolver division. I would shoot that division as well except locally nobody else does and I never liked to play with myself (oop's I meant by myself) in public. So please don't falsely catagorize my comments as being from someone who is against those division I don't shoot or enjoy.

I also don't have any heartache about which division's survive and which don't. My only point was, and is, that I am not in favor of continueing to add more divisions. USPSA will not grow and improve if it tries to be everything to everybody. It is my belief that USPSA was never meant to be an entry level sport, IDPA was created to fill that void. It was created to be the ultimate proving ground for equipment, technique, and skills. IMHO the membership, as a whole, will be better served if USPSA continues on that path, instead of focusing on giving group hugs........

By the way "Chuck D" your are right, your $525.00 per year for a couple of years investment in USPSA does give you the right to opinion and that opinion should be respected and it is at least by me. But based on my average on about $8000.00 a year spent on USPSA competitions for the last 22 years, my $176,000.00 investment in the sport you enjoy so much also give's me a right to an opinion which I hope you can also respect.

[pskys2]

.... But based on my average on about $8000.00 a year spent on USPSA competitions for the last 22 years, my $176,000.00 investment in the sport you enjoy so much also give's me a right to an opinion which I hope you can also respect.

UHHHHH! I too have lightened my wallet way too much over too many years. I don't think my psyche can take an actual accounting of time or money. I prefer trying to dwell on the future fun I might have.

[Chuck D]

"By the way "Chuck D" your are right, your $525.00 per year for a couple of years investment in USPSA does give you the right to opinion and that opinion should be respected and it is at least by me. But based on my average on about $8000.00 a year spent on USPSA competitions for the last 22 years, my $176,000.00 investment in the sport you enjoy so much also give's me a right to an opinion which I hope you can also respect."

I'm not about to "total up" my entire investment over 19 years of shooting USPSA matches but you obviously spend a great deal more than I.

It is my belief that USPSA was never meant to be an entry level sport, IDPA was created to fill that void.

Wow.... IDPA was created due to USPSA's ianbility and/or unwillingness to stick to what IDPA's creators deemed the "principles of practical shooting." It is NO entry level sport.

This "too many Divisions" problem just doesn't exist. The real agenda at work here is the downgrading/elimination of L10 so others can have a full fledged SS division w/o adding to the overall number of divisions and their using the mag cap ban sunset (NOT Nationwide I might add) as the rationale. True L10 competitors know this...

If you live in Cali or NY...you can go to an Area Champs. or Nationals and compete in the 10 round "category" under the Limited Division banner. Similar applications apply for other Divisions that are NOT Open or Limited.

It's not a matter of respect because contrary to popular belief I respect ALL shooter's opinions regardless of who they are or where they come from. But I have to be honest when I say it's pure arrogance to tell someone..."sorry...you've enjoyed L10 for a number of years now but now it's gone....too bad for you....oh, by the way, your 40 dollar membership renewal is due."

Edited September 29, 2006 by Chuck D

[JakeMartens]

By the way "Chuck D" your are right, your $525.00 per year for a couple of years investment in USPSA does give you the right to opinion and that opinion should be respected and it is at least by me. But based on my average on about $8000.00 a year spent on USPSA competitions for the last 22 years, my $176,000.00 investment in the sport you enjoy so much also give's me a right to an opinion which I hope you can also respect.

Who cares

better yet let's see who's is bigger, makes about as much sense!!!

Whatever happen to:

Our mission is to promote safe, fair and fun participation in Practical Shooting competition, for members of all ages and skill levels, through effective leadership, education, communication and administration.

It doesn't say anything about only those that can afford to compete with certain equipment and beyond a certain skill level can play. And to say that USPA is just for the elite shooters that can afford to spend the time and money on equipment to be competitive in only one division like you can is arrogant. The attitude of "let IDPA deal with the rift raft" and we will only cater to those that mirror myself is ridiculous. We should be striving to be inclusive, not exclusive. I can appreciate that some have invested more time and more money than others have, but when it comes right down to it, I could care less and so could the majority of the USPSA membership I suspect.

Honestly if I wanted to hang around a bunch of people that only care what they have spent on a sport I would start playing golf and join an exclusive county club and only drink import beer with my pinky sticking out.

Edited September 30, 2006 by fortyfiveshooter

[Wakal]

Ummm....just an aside as a comment to all the folks whining about high dollar gear being "required", wasn't the Limited Nationals just won by a guy using a $400 Glock?

Sorry, that "high dollar gear" dog won't hunt.

After my three-year incarceration in the People's Democratic Republic Of Hawaii, I learned that people forced (or enjoying) to dwell in such People's Republics did quite well when competing with real magazines in America. Our Friends To The North, as well

Me? I like (slightly modified) Bruce Plan of having Open, Limited, and Production with recognized sub-categories for the self-challenged in wheelguns (also Open, Limited, and Production, so the 627's and the ubercool ICORE guns can play too), and such fun antiques as Single Stack (which should include the 220 and 210, as well as the REST of the world's single stacks ).

But the "must have expensive gear to play" card should be removed from play, as well as the "people living in Amerika can't compete with real magazines when they go to America" card. Enough already; think of something new to complain about. Those cards are out of play

Alex

Edited September 30, 2006 by Wakal

[Merlin Orr]

Am too - Are not...Am too - Are not....

Jeeez!

[zhunter]

Am too - Are not...Am too - Are not....

Jeeez!

+1

No kidding. Just show up and shoot what is allowed. It is supposed to be fun and a game. Besides, we all need reasons to buy new stuff don't we?

[tightloop]

David Sevigney is not a real person..he is a clone of a younger Rob Leatham

[gino_aki]

Raises hand and waves it wildly as well as elbowing all the other guys in VISSC and Rhat Rhat Boyz and MPPL for formation of Open-10 Division!!!

Sure be nice to not have to unblock my mags when I visited ya'all up there on the continent. Or re-route all my by now hard-wired 10 round strategies.

[Punkin Chunker]

But, what's the purpose of SS? Mags are limited in round count (not unusual) and in size (looks better than a 1"+ extension). Gear is carryable? The biggie, a specific firearm design model is "Required".

What of a Carry Division (instead of SS), set up to allow std 1911 with no Mag Well or Base Pads, and smaller firearms, with a limited mag capacity and carry type gear. Then "NOT" requiring 1911's. Make the Round Limits to 8 Rd in the gun (use 7 rd Mags in a 1911 and load down others).

It does seem like the purpose of SS is to cater to a specific firearm, and through that to a manufacturer.

Such as when the PF was lowered from 175 to 165. What changed?

1. People overloading 9mm to make major and running into dangerous situations. Lowering the PF allowed more people to shoot 9mm major without confirming Darwin.

2. A major manufacturer and supporter of ISPC coming out with their very own .40 cartridge, which fit nicely into the 165 PF.

And who is a major manufacturer of 1911-style pistols? The original benchmark has lost the race -- quality, price, one down and the other up. So enter another major manufacturer of 1911-style pistols. SS supports them nicely.

I like the idea you had of a carry division -- it certainly seems a good way to draw IDPA shooters over into ISPC. I know a number of people who would be happy with the free-style COF of IPSC, using the carry gear embraced by IDPA. Would your 'carry division' mandate concealment garments? Toss in a 'practical' twist to a scenario and you'd basically have a high round count IDPA course -- just what many people want.

I shoot both. The difference is where I carry 4 extra mags. I was shooting L10 (one 10-round mag was generally enough to give me what I needed in flexibility for planning reloads). I started with SS, but am switching back, since there doesn't seem to be as much drive for SS locally. Either one, it's lead downrange, running and gunning, and the smell of gunpowder, so it's all good.

[RPMartin]

Hmmm, lots of input.

IDPA has 5 (6 w/BUG) Divisions listed. CAS has almost too many to mention. ICORE has 2 w/a 6 shot sub class. USPSA has 5 (w/SS being a 6th provisional). So USPSA isn't really out of line as it stands now, either way SS goes.

But, what's the purpose of SS? Mags are limited in round count (not unusual) and in size (looks better than a 1"+ extension). Gear is carryable? The biggie, a specific firearm design model is "Required".

Is the purpose to cater to only 1911 SS Classic devotees? What then of the Glock contingent, there are quite a few GSSF competitors? Will the next move be to set up a Glock Provisional Division?

Is it to cater to the Practical/Defensive enthusiasts? But, they must only shoot a 1911.

The further we go from the original intent of IPSC, remember the "all guns must compete against one another", to find the best weapon for this purpose the harder this argument will get.

If we take it as the sport it is being run as now, I think we will have to accept the idea of many Divisions.

Just some idle ramblings.

P.S.

What of a Carry Division (instead of SS), set up to allow std 1911 with no Mag Well or Base Pads, and smaller firearms, with a limited mag capacity and carry type gear. Then "NOT" requiring 1911's. Make the Round Limits to 8 Rd in the gun (use 7 rd Mags in a 1911 and load down others).

Just a wacky idea but wouldn't this intice more of the SS Classic, Carry guys and IDPA than the existing SS rules? Wouldn't this fit into the Scheme of USPSA Divisions philosophy?

Generally:

Open Anything Goes Mag Capacity limited only by length

Limited Anything with no comps & Iron Sights Mag Capacity limited only by length

Production Any non modified Production Pistol (held to strict limits w/approved guns) Mag Capacity limited to 10, because of lowest common denominator of legal issues for OEM's

Revolver A whole different "TYPE" of handgun with manufacturing/strutural limits on Capacity

Limited 10 Anything, as per Limited Mag Capacity limited due to Governmental Legal Issues (still in effect for some)

SS gives the old duffers, a chance to come back to the sport.

Also Newbies, who go down to the local "Bang and Clang Gun Store" can purchase a 1911 and go out to the Game and play. 1911 style guns come with 8 round mags.... and there are a bunch of them on the shelves. After the New shooters get a taste and see what is possible they will and do upgrade. I speak from personal experience here.

RPM

[Chriss Grube]

Well we get the same old if you live in NY or cali......I shoot 2 matches a month in NY and the last few Area and section matches....lots of NYer's shooting open and limited and damn those boys all must be outlaws cause they have mags that sure hold more than 10 rounds.

It might be nice to actually have a debate without the I'm taking my football and going home BS. Maybe an adult level debate on the merits of more or less divisions?

[Gary Stevens]

What is it Chris, got the old cruiser in for an oil change and decided to pop up on the BE forum

Gary

[EricW]

What about a debate on the inherent virtues of a division? I disagree with the "only 1911's need apply" part of SS division, but I like just about everything else about it. It's a unique and challenging growth opportunity for everyone to go play in. We're going to go from "you can't miss fast enough to win" to "you can't miss to win."

Plus, we finally have a division besides Open and Revo, where the equipment can have worldwide acceptance and accessibility. 40 major even allows folks from Italy and Brazil (IIRC) to avoid the "no military caliber" regulations and come shoot US matches with the gear they use on their home turf.

I hope that SS's incorporation into USPSA from provisional to permanent status is managed judiciously and inclusively.

Edited October 6, 2006 by EricW

[glock_40_caliber]

I don't see the logic in having both a L-10 and a Single Stack Division. The BOD should (IMHO) keep one and eliminate the other. If they choice to keep L-10 they should restrict it to single stack frames. I realize there are people out there who have XD's, Glock's, Sig's, or whatever that might like to shoot in L-10 but they could easily move over to Production. If they decide to keep S/S they should grandfather in the 10 round extended magazines for the next year or two, and just require the competitors to download them to 8 rounds for major (or 10 for minor) just like they do the hi caps in L-10.

Too many division's dilutes the prize tables (which should be eliminated anyway) and the talent pool, and increases the cost to the clubs/individuals putting on the matches. In the case of matches like the Nationals it also dilutes the MD/RM/CRO/RO pool when you end up with separate Nationals. It also put's an additional burden on the sponsors.

As in all things, you can't please everyone, and when your efforts are forced to be more about quantity instead of quality, everybody loses..........

So, following this line of thinking, we need to eliminate Open, Limited, Production, and Revolver, and just stick with the Single Stack as the sole division. Or, eliminate all but Limited, or Open, etc. This way the "talent pool," prize tables, and match staff are not diluted down.

That makes absolutely no sense. What happened to the "run what you brung" philosophy of this sport? Also, why should L10 be limited to SS frames? I can think of a number of single stack magazine fed handguns that do not meet the 1911 platform requirement. Why do we want to eliminate the folks running those guns out of the sport? Why do we want to not collect their match entry fees, and sponsor support just because you want to limit them to a particular type of handgun?

[Bob Hostetter]

I had decided to stay out of this one but just one more post............

Mr Glock_40_Caliber,

We shouldn't eliminate Open because that is the division that started this whole game. One of the orginial rules or principles was everyone competed heads up regardless of equipment and see who win's. I must admit I liked that concept....

If you agree with the concept that we need to throw out the original principles and separate equipment then you should hang on to Limited because most would agree that the capabilities of Open vs Limited equipment are very different. As far as eliminating everything except Limited and Open, well, it wouldn't break my heart, but I think we have gone too far down the road to turn back to that at this point.

Production, well I was against it when it was formed but shot in that division for a couple of years and had some fun there. They should make the rules more restrictive, further separating Production from the other division's to increase it's value as a stand alone division.

Revolver's? Revolver guys are such a dedicated group you have to do something with them. They won't go away if you ignore them (USPSA has been trying that for years), and their eqiupment is so different they if you are going to let them shoot, you might as well make them play with each other so they don't bother the real shooters.

Limited 10 was created to acommadate those who didn't have any hi cap magazines after the ban. It was, and is, basicially Limited division using 10 round magaines. The equipment is basicially held to the same standards as Limited so other the amount of bullets you put in the gun, it is a dupilcation of a pre-existing division. Most people can and a lot do, switch between Limited and L-10, using the same equipment.

Single Stack requires you to use a single stack gun, holster and mag pouches are restricted the same as in Production, and requires the use of magazines flush with the bottom of the grip. Just about everything about SS is different then Limited and different to a larger degree then the same differences between Limited and L-10.

People who are currently competing in L-10 with a hi cap can easily switch over to Limited and those using a single stack can easily switch over to SS.

Like I said before, I am opposed to adding additional divisions, especially with L-10 and SS so close together in equipment and skills. I believe, if we can't go back to only Open and Limited, we need to decide which one we (THE WHOLE MEMBERSHIP) want and either don't add SS or if we do, then eliminate L-10.

But that's just my opinion..............

[glock_40_caliber]

we need to decide which one we (THE WHOLE MEMBERSHIP) want and either don't add SS or if we do, then eliminate L-10.

But that's just my opinion..............

Yes, that is just your opinion. Mine happens to be if you want to shoot a single stack 1911, more power to you. But do NOT tell me I have to shoot one, if I want to shoot something besides open, revolver, and hi cap limited.

[Chuck D]

"I shoot 2 matches a month in NY and the last few Area and section matches....lots of NYer's shooting open and limited and damn those boys all must be outlaws cause they have mags that sure hold more than 10 rounds."

Read the Penal Law of the State of New York... but what do I know, I just live here.

"Limited 10 was created to acommadate those who didn't have any hi cap magazines after the ban. It was, and is, basicially Limited division using 10 round magaines. The equipment is basicially held to the same standards as Limited so other the amount of bullets you put in the gun, it is a dupilcation of a pre-existing division. Most people can and a lot do, switch between Limited and L-10, using the same equipment."

Most being the operative word. Some can't...

"It might be nice to actually have a debate without the I'm taking my football and going home BS. Maybe an adult level debate on the merits of more or less divisions?"

It is BS because some won't bend to the will of others?

"Revolver's? Revolver guys are such a dedicated group you have to do something with them. They won't go away if you ignore them (USPSA has been trying that for years), and their eqiupment is so different they if you are going to let them shoot, you might as well make them play with each other so they don't bother the real shooters."

The "real shooters"......

"Mine happens to be if you want to shoot a single stack 1911, more power to you. But do NOT tell me I have to shoot one, if I want to shoot something besides open, revolver, and hi cap limited."

Mine too....

USPSA will never realize its full potential as long as 3 prevailing trends of thought exist.

1. I've got mine...screw you if you don't have or can't get yours.

2. We've changed the rules again...what once was legal isn't and what you once had (or can do) is gone... but you can easily go do this instead.

3. This "sport" isn't entry level. If you want "entry level" ... go play IDPA.

Some make it so easy to "walk away"....

Edited October 7, 2006 by Chuck D

[EricW]

This thread needs closure....in the literal sense.

[ima45dv8]

Well, before that happens....

"People who are currently competing in L-10 with a hi cap can easily switch over to Limited and those using a single stack can easily switch over to SS."

Not meaning to single you out Bob, but I'd like to borrow this quote to illustrate a sad trend in these discussions. Similar rhetoric is repeated throughout this and most other threads on the subject.

What we have is a group of shooters saying to the rest, "I've got mine, so it's all OK! But don't worry. When we do away with the division(s) you shoot, you can easily switch to XYZ."

I'm starting to see how some people can envision a quick and painless solution to this 'multiple division' burden (though I've yet to have anyone convince me it is a burden). It's quick and painless to them because it requires no effort or sacrifice on their part. It's the other guy who has to "....easily switch over to Limited...." or "....easily switch over to SS....", or "....easily switch over to whatever...."

This mindset is wrong on so many levels.

[ipscbob]

That makes absolutely no sense. What happened to the "run what you brung" philosophy of this sport? Also, why should L10 be limited to SS frames? I can think of a number of single stack magazine fed handguns that do not meet the 1911 platform requirement. Why do we want to eliminate the folks running those guns out of the sport? Why do we want to not collect their match entry fees, and sponsor support just because you want to limit them to a particular type of handgun?

Yup. I would agree that this SS concept is pretty asinine! Think about how restrictive and stupid it looks to outsiders looking in. Lets alienate a large portion of our loyal, active, paying members, who currrently shoot L10, to cater to a small portion of IDPA crossovers and tactical types who will never really feel that they have a "level playing field" regardless of the division that they play in. Get a clue! Since we all have different physical attributes and abilities, a level playing field is a fantasy. Stick a fork in it, it's been done for a week or more......

[Jim Norman]

OK, what can I shoot in which Division???

Open: Just about anything I can carry and shoot with one hand.

Limited: Wide-body, single stack, SA or DA or "Safe-action" any caliber, 9mm or above, with 10mm for major. "Iron Sights, no optics.

Limited-10: see limited, but only 10 rounds need apply.

Production: DA first shot, or :Safe-Action" 10 rounds only, 9mm minimum, no "Race Holsters" Gear at or behind the point of the hipbone

Single Stack: Flush fit mags, 8 rouns max for Major, equipment placement similar to Production. Currently limited to 1911, w/o light rails etc.

Revolver: No ports or comps, 6 rounds max before reload.

So, where does this leave me? I can basically shoot my old WWII era 1911 in any division EXCEPT Prod and REVO. I can shoot any production gun in any division EXCEPT REVO or SS. I can shoot my Limited gun in Limited, Limited-10, or Open (assuming of course that my Limited gun is a widebody, otherwise I could also shoot it in SS, maybe)

Why are so many people trying to pigeon-hole me and my equipment? I just got a new XD Tactical in .40. I like it. A lot!. I may go so far as to shoot L-10 minor, or maybe even bump it up a notch and shoot L-10 Major with it, from my Production gear. I might go so far as to get mag extensions and shoot in Limited with it! Like many, I started shooting a SS and got my first classification with it. I rarely shoot it any more, but that could change. I just might shoot it in L-10, or maybe even in Limited.

Choices are fun. Many of us shoot what we brought out today in what ever division is the largest, not the easiest. We like the competition. This is one reason we like to see the combined scores published at local matches. We want to know where I stand overall against everyone that showed up.

What difference does it make if we have 6 divisions or even 7 or 8?

I would wholly support the creation of a division I doubt I would ever shoot. But I see a lot of people at steel matches shooting this: REVOLVER OPEN. Allow comps, ports, optics and 8 rounds.

I would also support an Open-10 division for all of those that live in places where the Klintonistas still rule.

Would I support them as full divisions? That is a question that needs deep thought. How about as categories run concurrent with the division, or to put it another way, The MD decides up front, which of the Open Divisions will be recognized at a given match. Base it upon the projected draw or the demographics of the local shooters. Remember Canada has Open-10 by default. Not that I want to see us go that way, but as it currently stands, if I were to fly to Hawaii or California for a match I would have no choice, but in Cali, those that were already there could shoot full open while the new guys have no choice but to shoot O-10. In Hi, everyone shoots heads up as I understand it, O-10 is what they actually have.

I guess I just don't see the big problem with having divisions that fit the real world of gun ownership.

Award really nice plaques and trophies to the Division and Class winners. Then have a double blind draw for prizes. Pull from one list the name of the winner and from the other the prize. Or maybe pull names of the winners and send them through the prize tables in that order. It seems that the "Big Problem" is the perception of dilution of the competitive pool. I have argued that we either need to run a single Very Large Nationals where you make your choice and you shoot your gun OR we need to run multiple nationals. One each for each division. That would be the best solution IF we had enough people in each to both support and run the matches. We do not and likely will never have that many people. So, that leaves us with the half-way measure we currently operate under. Open-Production and Limited-Limited-10-Revolver. This allows some of the top shooters to compete in at least two separate divisions and to set the bar in them for the rest of us. Sadly, it also means that they will not be shooting in all of the divisions, so some divisions get a better idea of the top performance than others. It also means that in those three fairly well represented divisions, that there will be some top shooters in each. L-10 and Revo are I think the ugly stepchildren. This with no disrespect meant to people of Jerry's stature. In many respects, Revo is so different that it can likely always be a tag on to any other match.

If we ran a single large national with all divisions shooting heads up, AND published, just for comparative statistics only, the combined scores, it might prove very interesting as to who is better than whom with what platform. It would also mean that everyone could only get one shot at greatness that year.

We wouldn't get to see the heads up competitions of the top 10 greatest current crop of shooters. There would be a dilution at that level. But at the lower levels, we might actually see more shooters getting better since it would be likely that they would choose a platform and shoot it all year. As it currently stands, I personally shoot Limited and to a lesser degree Production. I am going to both Nats. I have very little time in on the Production platform this year. If I had only one chance, I would have spent all my shooting time on one platform rather than spreading it out over two or more.

I know that if we moved to one large Nationals with say 24-36 stages we could have considerably more shooters and I know I for one would be willing to pay more to shoot it. It would also be the kind of event that just might start to attract other sponsor types. We are a fairly affluent group and we are a very eclectic group, so unlike some venues an advertiser/sponsor of an event such as this can reach across all demographic lines. Students, teachers, lawyers, engineers, business owners, doctors, pilots, preachers and just about any other group you can imagine.

Some things to think about.

Jim

[Jman]

L10 is my ''poor mans Limited". If it goes away I'm dusting off the golf clubs.

[boo radley]

Choices are fun. Many of us shoot what we brought out today in what ever division is the largest, not the easiest. We like the competition. This is one reason we like to see the combined scores published at local matches. We want to know where I stand overall against everyone that showed up.

What difference does it make if we have 6 divisions or even 7 or 8?

[...]

It seems that the "Big Problem" is the perception of dilution of the competitive pool. I have argued that we either need to run a single Very Large Nationals where you make your choice and you shoot your gun OR we need to run multiple nationals. Some things to think about.

Jim

Nice post, Jim -- imo, the "dilution of competition" argument for fewer Divisions (which I kinda agree with), becomes larger as matches get smaller, as opposed to being a concenr at the Nationals level. A sectional might only have 20 L10 shooters, period: if 4 of those go off, and shoot SS, you could end up with no one getting an accurate sense of match accomplishment vs. competition, or award, etc, right?

As someone else said, imagine if a "plastic gun only" division were created, and how it would affect Production.

All that said, I can't see how this will ever get resolved, without pissing some section of membership off, no matter what is decided, or not decided. It will be interesting to see how many shoot SS next year.