Limited 10 Or Single Stack Division?

[Chuck D]

This "we have too many Divisions" argument is a red herring.

It isn't rocket science to set reasonable participation numbers that would justify giving out awards for any division...whether existing now or created in the future. I can't begin to tell you the number of times I've won my Division or class in my Division in a number of different shooting sports and not garnered a prize due to low participation numbers.

The "we only need 3 Divisions" argument baffles me as well. It seems that as long as USPSA keeps Open AND Limited Division...the rest are expendable, especially L10 because the "ban" is over for MOST of the county.

If the above is the rationale for eliminating/consolidating Divisions...it's a move in the wrong direction based upon a non-existing problem.

Edited September 28, 2006 by Chuck D

[Carmoney]

It seems that as long as USPSA keeps Open AND Limited Division...the rest are expendable, especially L10 because the "ban" is over for MOST of the county.

Chuck, I realize you are paraphrasing another viewpoint than your own here, but I must point out that Revolver Division is not expendable. There is no other division where the wheelguns can reasonably compete. Divisions are not popularity contests, they are designed to recognize and accommodate the major differences in equipment choice that are available and in use. I can see where there might be quite a bit of overlap between some other divisions, but Revolver truly is a different situation.

Forcing Revolver shooters to compete in Limited would be every bit as foolish and unfair as forcing Limited shooters to compete in Open.

There is no downside to maintaining Revolver as a separate division. If a match chooses not to recognize the division (which I have seen done), that's fine. If there are not enough Revos on board to justify plaques or prizes (which I have also seen done), that's fine too. But in order to play, Revolver shooters need their own separate division and classification system. Otherwise, it just won't work and the wheelgunners will be forced to switch or leave. The equipment is just too different for Revolver to be a "category" or whatever.

Revolver Division in USPSA has entered a healthy and steady growth mode. Whatever happens with L-10 and Single-Stack is a completely separate issue.

Edited September 28, 2006 by Carmoney

[Tman33_99]

As long as the base foundation of our sport, the local clubs and matches have the ability to be flexible based on their own needs or wants, I don't see any problem with what we have now.

Gary

Gary,

What I am trying to communicate is that I believe that the flexibility that you speak of is mostly just a paper reality.

But, you are right, in that the Match Director does have to power to say to the shooter, "no..go away...we aren't going to recognize all the USPSA divisions."

I agree with you Flex. I am still trying to remove the tar and feathers from suggesting we limit divisions at our monthly match.

My plan was this: Odd months would be race gun (Open, Limited, L10) Even months would be factory gun (SS, Prod, Revo). If you showed up with a different than "reconized" gun and insisted on running in that division (ie odd month you bring your SS and don't want to run in L10) you can enter and be scored for no awards. My reason for this is simple. Competition is fun. A local match with 25 people and only 5 or 6 max in each div. is not as much fun IMHO as a local match with 25 people and 8-10 people in each.

Nobody seem to like the idea, they all wanted to keep run what you brung, even if it means only 2 people in the division.

[Chuck D]

"Whatever happens with L-10 and Single-Stack is a completely separate issue."

No it's not.

Where I come from...once you allow any Division to "fall by the wayside" you set the precedent for the next Division that falls out of the powers that be favor to be eliminated and/or consolidated.

It matters not that the gun has a slide, cylinder, or 10 round only magazine.

All this "talk" about "just talk" is something I just don't buy. Sorry. The elimination of L10 has been a topic of conversation for several years now and it occurs in many other venues (both in written and verbal form) other than the BE Forums. Like I stated earlier...my L10 get-up (an SV in 45acp) has been sold. I plan to get in front of the train and recoop. some of my investment before the train runs me over like it has twice in the past (my 8 shot 627 and my Limited .356 TSW purchases).

USPSA has made a committment to its membership, especially those in capacity limited States that do not enjoy the benefit of a ban reversal. You can talk all you want in regards to consolidating Divisions for awards or any other purposes. I expect USPSA to keep their committment thay made to me and others. If you can't or won't...why spend another dollar with the organization?

Would you shop at a store in which you pay good money and not receive what you've paid for?

[Jim Norman]

This "we have too many Divisions" argument is a red herring.

It isn't rocket science to set reasonable participation numbers that would justify giving out awards for any division...whether existing now or created in the future. I can't begin to tell you the number of times I've won my Division or class in my Division in a number of different shooting sports and not garnered a prize due to low participation numbers.

The "we only need 3 Divisions" argument baffles me as well. It seems that as long as USPSA keeps Open AND Limited Division...the rest are expendable, especially L10 because the "ban" is over for MOST of the county.

If the above is the rationale for eliminating/consolidating Divisions...it's a move in the wrong direction based upon a non-existing problem.

In the Mid-Atlantic Section of Area 8, we have the following schedule for recognition. It should also be noted that our match fees are as follows: Non-USPSA member $25, USPSA Member $20, Club Members $15 (if the club offers the discount)

Awards are as follows:

Division Winner: $ 30.00 (5 in division)

Class Winner: $ 20.00 (3 shooters in class) Paid even if there are only 3 in the Class. We just don't pay the Division Prize.

Second Place: $ 12.00 (8 shooters in class)

Third Place: $ 8.00 (15 shooters in class)

So, if there are only 3 Shooters in Single Stack, so long as they are all in the same class, they get recognized. We also ALWAYS publish the combined results.

Jim

[Flexmoney]

I haven't shot, seen, or heard of (other than mentioned here) a local USPSA match that gives any type of payouts.

As interesting as that is...it's not even on my radar for this discussion (L10/SStck).

[Bob Hostetter]

I don't see the logic in having both a L-10 and a Single Stack Division. The BOD should (IMHO) keep one and eliminate the other. If they choice to keep L-10 they should restrict it to single stack frames. I realize there are people out there who have XD's, Glock's, Sig's, or whatever that might like to shoot in L-10 but they could easily move over to Production. If they decide to keep S/S they should grandfather in the 10 round extended magazines for the next year or two, and just require the competitors to download them to 8 rounds for major (or 10 for minor) just like they do the hi caps in L-10.

Too many division's dilutes the prize tables (which should be eliminated anyway) and the talent pool, and increases the cost to the clubs/individuals putting on the matches. In the case of matches like the Nationals it also dilutes the MD/RM/CRO/RO pool when you end up with separate Nationals. It also put's an additional burden on the sponsors.

As in all things, you can't please everyone, and when your efforts are forced to be more about quantity instead of quality, everybody loses..........

[Jim Norman]

I haven't shot, seen, or heard of (other than mentioned here) a local USPSA match that gives any type of payouts.

As interesting as that is...it's not even on my radar for this discussion (L10/SStck).

Very interesting. Our whole section runs under this. And has for many years. May I inquire as to what the match fees in other areas/sections are and what awards or prizes are given.

BTW, up until a few years ago, we offered a choice of a Plaque, trophy or Check. Most people opt for the check after receiving more than a few plaques. You can only cover up so much wall space.

Jim

[ipscbob]

I don't see the logic in having both a L-10 and a Single Stack Division. The BOD should (IMHO) keep one and eliminate the other. If they choice to keep L-10 they should restrict it to single stack frames. I realize there are people out there who have XD's, Glock's, Sig's, or whatever that might like to shoot in L-10 but they could easily move over to Production. If they decide to keep S/S they should grandfather in the 10 round extended magazines for the next year or two, and just require the competitors to download them to 8 rounds for major (or 10 for minor) just like they do the hi caps in L-10.

Too many division's dilutes the prize tables (which should be eliminated anyway) and the talent pool, and increases the cost to the clubs/individuals putting on the matches. In the case of matches like the Nationals it also dilutes the MD/RM/CRO/RO pool when you end up with separate Nationals. It also put's an additional burden on the sponsors.

As in all things, you can't please everyone, and when your efforts are forced to be more about quantity instead of quality, everybody loses..........

You actually just made the best argument yet for never bringing in SS division at all. But since the BOD has already made that mistake without consulting the memebrship.......

[Jim Norman]

I don't see the logic in having both a L-10 and a Single Stack Division. The BOD should (IMHO) keep one and eliminate the other. If they choice to keep L-10 they should restrict it to single stack frames. I realize there are people out there who have XD's, Glock's, Sig's, or whatever that might like to shoot in L-10 but they could easily move over to Production. If they decide to keep S/S they should grandfather in the 10 round extended magazines for the next year or two, and just require the competitors to download them to 8 rounds for major (or 10 for minor) just like they do the hi caps in L-10.

Too many division's dilutes the prize tables (which should be eliminated anyway) and the talent pool, and increases the cost to the clubs/individuals putting on the matches. In the case of matches like the Nationals it also dilutes the MD/RM/CRO/RO pool when you end up with separate Nationals. It also put's an additional burden on the sponsors.

As in all things, you can't please everyone, and when your efforts are forced to be more about quantity instead of quality, everybody loses..........

All said, I still don't see any problems with keeping 6 Divisions. I certainly do not want to see L-10 go away or be limited to Single Stacks. We need more shooters shooting more guns at more matches. Currently we are not even on the radar screen. 15,000 members in USPSA vs 4 million NRA. that is just 0.375%! Eliminating divisions is not conducive to growth, it turns people off. I would likewise be VERY carefull in the addition of anymore divisions. With the exception of an Open Revolver, we have a place where just about anyone can play. Yes there are problems. But just suppose we had enough interest to have 6 separate nationals with 400 shooters each? No time soon, but it would be awesome. Or maybe at a range like USSA we could have a National that hosts 1000 shooters over a 5 day or 6 day period? WOuld htat be a goal? It has been said that this would be hard on the sponsors. If we had 3x the membership we would likely atract more sponsors! THey would have a larger audience! Would you be happier marketing to 15,000 or 45,000 people? Would you rather have 1000 people walk the tents or 300? Yes prize administration and all would be tougher, but at three times the membership, we'd have more staff to do things, maybe like schedule matches more than 6 months in advance?

I could go on.

Jim

[JakeMartens]

[qoute]I don't see the logic in having both a L-10 and a Single Stack Division. The BOD should (IMHO) keep one and eliminate the other. If they [qoute]choice to keep L-10 they should restrict it to single stack frames. I realize there are people out there who have XD's, Glock's, Sig's, or whatever that might like to shoot in L-10 but they could easily move over to Production. If they decide to keep S/S they should grandfather in the 10 round extended magazines for the next year or two, and just require the competitors to download them to 8 rounds for major (or 10 for minor) just like they do the hi caps in L-10.[qoute]

Or why not just put single stack to Production and make it major/minor with .40s&w or larger 8 rounds for major or 10 rounders in 9mm for minor?

Edited September 29, 2006 by fortyfiveshooter

[Chuck D]

"...increases the cost to the clubs/individuals putting on the matches."

Really...here's what I would spend before I went back to college in 2004 and what I have budgeted for 2007 now that I've earned my degree...

$40.00 USPSA Membership renewal

$125.00 USPSA/IPSC Club Membership

$120.00 ENTRY FEE FOR 8 Club Matches (15 bucks a match)at the above "home club.

$200.00 FOR APPROX. 10 Club Level Matches (20 bucks a pop) outside of my home club.

Rough total with a few "extra matches" thrown in: $525 Dollars.

Seems to me that I "pay my fair share" for L10 on a local level.

" realize there are people out there who have XD's, Glock's, Sig's, or whatever that might like to shoot in L-10 but they could easily move over to Production."

Really...what do people do if they own a 2 grand 1911/2011/Para/SV wide body and can only possess and use 10 round mags? Where can THEY easily go?

"in the case of matches like the Nationals it also dilutes the MD/RM/CRO/RO pool when you end up with separate Nationals. It also put's an additional burden on the sponsors"

How many people attend Nationals vs. the number of members of this organization? How does the ability to participate in numerous Divisions "dilute" the talent pool? Is Limited Division "diluted" if a shooter whom normally participates in Production Division wins the whole damn thing?

"as in all things, you can't please everyone, and when your efforts are forced to be more about quantity instead of quality, everybody loses........."

You mean like "cheesing off" a fair amount of members by eliminating a successful and growing Division because it supposedly "dilutes" the talent pool, the sponsorship pool, and increases the costs to clubs and individuals ?

Edited September 29, 2006 by Chuck D

[Mistral404]

Our organizations sponsors action pistol shooting.

Any that will bring in more people and yes, sponsors to help support matches I support.

I fully supported the SS concept. I like the idea it coinsides with the 1911 Society. Got a gun for it.

I enjoy L10. I got there guns that can play in the Division.

I enjoy Limited. Got a gun for it too.

Shot a friend open gun-- if I had the money I would have a gun for it too.

I might be a production gun soon.

I do not shoot wheel guns-just way too much effort for me. Beside Jerry and Nils own this division.

I pretty much agree with Chuck D original statements. If someones wants to shoot it then lets support the pistol shooting sports. We are more flexible than any other pistol association. Lets be inclusive not exclusive.

Do not get rid of any of the Divisions.

[EricW]

There are too many divisions.

"The # of divisions is too high" argument smells like a red herring because the current situation stinks.

The competition *is* diluted by the divisions.

The the cost-benefit of having a Nationals Match for a division with 35 shooters is questionable.

Anything that streamlines the competition into a more "heads-up" environment is a step forward IMO. Dump a couple divisions or dump the classes. I don't care what you do, but a match should not consist of up to 36 different horseraces (6 divisions X 6 classes) plus special categories.

[Chuck D]

"Anything that streamlines the competition into a more "heads-up" environment is a step forward IMO. Dump a couple divisions or dump the classes. I don't care what you do, but a match should not consist of up to 36 different horseraces (6 divisions X 6 classes) plus special categories."

Here's a better idea...dump a few divisions or classes thereby dumping a few hundred or so shooters... right into the hands of USPSA's competitors.

If after 19 years of USPSA membership I'm willing to sell my complete L10 SVI widebody package and hold onto my membership renewal payment 4 plus months after my membership has expired over the constant bull I have to put up with because my chosen division is the "root of all evils" in the USPSA Divisional justification wars...how do you think the newby or "short time" member is going to react when their told that L10 has been eliminated or "categorized" to make room for what amounts to SS and 8 round magazine "affirmative action?" Those that think the above isn't either "in the works" or the "agenda" of certain leaders of USPSA....think again long and hard... Although IDPA isn't without their share of rules problems...at least you can utilize other THAN 1911 SS platforms in CDP and ESP. Glocks, STI/SVI/Para/CZ/Tanfoglio's are all a.o.k.

As of this date...we have yet to learn from the mistakes we as an organization have made that spawned IDPA in the 1st place. Just as the NHRA couldn't survive with just Top Fuel, Pro Stock, and Funny Car...USPSA can't grow or simply survive with just Open and Limited Divisions. It's the "little guy" that buys the memberships, the t-shirts and hats, takes the RO courses, volunteers at the local clubs,and runs for USPSA elected office. If USPSA makes policy (primarily rules changes) that drive the little guy away...who will "carry the load?" Hope all you "less diluted" types are prepared to work a little bit harder.

By the way...how are those SS participatory numbers? Other than "piggybacking" on the reputation of the Single Stack Classic...has SS outpaced L10 yet?

I'm all done with this topic. I don't know why I even bother....

Edited September 29, 2006 by Chuck D

[Bigbadaboom]

With all the "There are too many divisions" discussion going on in this thread it is obvious to me that they are not talking about eliminating a division that those on the "There are too many divisions" side enjoy shooting in.

[Carmoney]

The the cost-benefit of having a Nationals Match for a division with 35 shooters is questionable.

Questionable? Well, I'll give you the answer: Revolver Division shooters added about $9,000 in entry fee money to the 2006 USPSA Nationals (a match which still had slots available for the taking right up until the last week). Other than the plaques, and perhaps a few more targets and pasters, there was no appreciable cost to USPSA of having Revolver as its own distinct division at this match. Without the separate Revolver Division, most of that $9,000 would not have come in as revenue to the organization, as very few revolver shooters will cross over and shoot a different gun.

Revolver Division adds shooters, and adds revenue. It's true at the club level right up through the Nationals. I've thought about this issue a lot, and there just is no down-side to keeping Revolver as a separate division.

[omnia1911]

Categorizing a handgun platform is issuing it a death sentence. The concept won't work.

In the past, Revolver was a category, not a division. An award was given for Top Revolver only. There was no such thing as revolver classifications, or need for them, due to the single award. If with reconfigure some of our divisions to a category status, will we only be handing out Top Revolver, Top L10, Top SS, etc. ? If not, why have the change.

Why would anyone shooting a revolver compete in the same Limited division as a high cap S_I just because he, or she, might also get Top Revolver? If you are going to recognize class in every category, what is the point of removing its division status? I don't get it.

Not enough competition in the divisions at your match? Don't recognize every division.

Too much overhead recognizing every division at you match? Don't recognize every division. Both of these solutions don't cost anything in manpower or money. What a concept.

[JakeMartens]

There are too many divisions.

Anything that streamlines the competition into a more "heads-up" environment is a step forward IMO. Dump a couple divisions or dump the classes. I don't care what you do, but a match should not consist of up to 36 different horseraces (6 divisions X 6 classes) plus special categories.

This is the attitude that you only need 2 divisions, open and limited and if you want to shoot with us you have to shoot this and if you want to be competitive you have to dump a ton of money into equipment and gear.

Isn't the attitude that drove enough people away that they went and started their own shooting sport because USPSA wasn't recognizing the desire to shoot what you got?

Just because you only want to shoot a Limited gun or an Open gun doesn't mean that there aren't just as many people that want to shoot an over the counter gun and would like to option of choosing which division to shoot in and progress into wanting to shoot in other divisions.

If you are only interested in shooting Limited or Open why does it matter if others want to shoot single stack, production or limited 10?

[Jim Norman]

This is the attitude that you only need 2 divisions, open and limited and if you want to shoot with us you have to shoot this and if you want to be competitive you have to dump a ton of money into equipment and gear.

Isn't the attitude that drove enough people away that they went and started their own shooting sport because USPSA wasn't recognizing the desire to shoot what you got?

Just because you only want to shoot a Limited gun or an Open gun doesn't mean that there aren't just as many people that want to shoot an over the counter gun and would like to option of choosing which division to shoot in and progress into wanting to shoot in other divisions.

If you are only interested in shooting Limited or Open why does it matter if others want to shoot single stack, production or limited 10?

Excellent points!

If a shooter shoots only Production or only L-10, it seems that some people think that is an invalid position. That USPSA should not recognize them.

Based upon the comments regarding how much Revolver brough to the Nationals, think about how much L-10 or Production is bringing in.

Yes, it is true that before when there was only one division, there were shooters. That is an undeniable truth. However, we now have people that have entered into USPSA an ONLY EVER shoot L-10 or Production. It is hte game they decided to shoot, for what ever reason they decided to shoot it. I personally shoot at least occasionally in all divisions. (SS will be shot this winter) I am selling off some equip,ent in order to get a competitve, read .45 cal) revolver. Some people only ever shoot in one Division, some like me shoot regularly in two or three and like me dable in all of them. Why? Bewcause if it launches bullets downrange it is FUN! I spend (don't let my wife hear this) over $10,000 a year shooting. I will likely never win at the nationals. I am too old, too slow and too busy. Besides, I could easily purchase any prize on the table for far less then the cost of winning it. I do this for FUN. Most of this do this for FUN. True I like to win and on occasion I do at the club level. I have won class at a couple Area matches. But winning is only a part of why I do this. I like most of the people I shoot with, some more than others, but I can't say I've met nicer people anywhere else. If I were to never win again, so long as I were able to have fun, i would continue. Yes I strive, within my self imposed limits to win. If I didn't have to work, I could probably shoot more. It is the time, not the money that keeps me down. Practice means an hour plus round trip to the range. It gets dark now, so I am limited to the indoor range during the week. Only so much I can do there. 25 yeard standard exercises, Weakhand drills etc.

Take away three or four of the divisions I shoot in and it may just not be fun enough anymore. I would revert to High-Power Rifle, PPC, maybe Bullseye. I get tired of shooting Limited, I switch over to Production, then I spend some time shooting Open, as I said eaerlier, this winter I will be shooting SS and if I can get what I want, I'll be shooting Revolver.

Leave the divisions alone. There are not too many. Someone made the comparison to Drag Racing. Would NHRA survive on only Top Fuel? Not likely. What pays the bills is the thousands that show up the bracket racing and the gassers etc.

I would make the arguement that we likely have enough divisions now. I might make an argument that we should ALLOW a Match Director to stipulate Open -10 where that would level out a paying field. In those cases it would have all the Open attributes of Open, same as L-10 does of Limited, but would obviously have a maximum load of 10.

I think I would do this on an allowance basis, not as a new division. In other words either or, but not both.

OK, Ranting is over for now. Maybe I make a point or two here that someone will agree with, maybe I annoy a few people, maybe a few will think.

Jim

[Tman33_99]

I like having the divisions we have, but I also hate going to a match of 30 people and only compete against 3 in my division. That happens quite often. The other divisions may have 8 or 10, or on that month the moon is just right and my division has 8 or 10, but another only has 2 or 3.

I thought it would be nice to "limit" divisions at our monthly match, and rotate what divisions (read my post above), to increase the competition. In my mind, competition is good. Most have the toys to play in multiple divisions. I bet there are less than a handful that "only" have a limited or open gun and couldn't play every other month production, SS, or Revo. And those that have just a production or a SS, can play in L10 or Limited.

This brought out the very strong "If you don't let me play with what I want, when I want I won't ever be back" kind of comments. This is even after it was explained they would be allowed to go open at a non-open match, but they will most likely be the only one.

This is a can't win situation for small local matches in my mind. Yes I still have fun. I still try to put on the best match I can as MD, but I enjoy the competition. It is kind of like kissing my sister when I win a division with ony 2 other people in it.

Those that suggest that a match can limit divisions, would you support a club that rotates what divisions are entered or awarded?

[1911user]

There are too many divisions.

"The # of divisions is too high" argument smells like a red herring because the current situation stinks.

The competition *is* diluted by the divisions.

The the cost-benefit of having a Nationals Match for a division with 35 shooters is questionable.

Anything that streamlines the competition into a more "heads-up" environment is a step forward IMO. Dump a couple divisions or dump the classes. I don't care what you do, but a match should not consist of up to 36 different horseraces (6 divisions X 6 classes) plus special categories.

Cut the number of classes in half leaving C/D, A/B, and GM/M. If that's still too many groups, drop SS and revolver divisions. That would leave 2 entry level divisions and 2 advanced divisions. It would simplify the structure if that really has to happen.

[38superman]

I like having the divisions we have, but I also hate going to a match of 30 people and only compete against 3 in my division. That happens quite often. The other divisions may have 8 or 10, or on that month the moon is just right and my division has 8 or 10, but another only has 2 or 3.

I thought it would be nice to "limit" divisions at our monthly match, and rotate what divisions (read my post above), to increase the competition. In my mind, competition is good. Most have the toys to play in multiple divisions. I bet there are less than a handful that "only" have a limited or open gun and couldn't play every other month production, SS, or Revo. And those that have just a production or a SS, can play in L10 or Limited.

This brought out the very strong "If you don't let me play with what I want, when I want I won't ever be back" kind of comments. This is even after it was explained they would be allowed to go open at a non-open match, but they will most likely be the only one.

This is a can't win situation for small local matches in my mind. Yes I still have fun. I still try to put on the best match I can as MD, but I enjoy the competition. It is kind of like kissing my sister when I win a division with ony 2 other people in it.

Those that suggest that a match can limit divisions, would you support a club that rotates what divisions are entered or awarded?

I suppose that we are lucky to have a local club that seems to have resolved this issue.

North Tennesse Practical Shooters runs a monthy club match on Saturday and Sunday.

They usually run two matches on each day.

This allows you to choose the day you want to compete.

The flexibility makes it possible for more shooters to come out and compete.

It also allows you to enter each match in a different division.

If you wanted to go out on both days you could shoot, in four diffierent divisions.

The number of reentries put a lot of shooters into every division keeping the competition interesting.

Pretty Cool, Huh?

Tony

Edited September 29, 2006 by tlshores

[Flexmoney]

I haven't shot, seen, or heard of (other than mentioned here) a local USPSA match that gives any type of payouts.

As interesting as that is...it's not even on my radar for this discussion (L10/SStck).

Very interesting. Our whole section runs under this. And has for many years. May I inquire as to what the match fees in other areas/sections are and what awards or prizes are given.

BTW, up until a few years ago, we offered a choice of a Plaque, trophy or Check. Most people opt for the check after receiving more than a few plaques. You can only cover up so much wall space.

Jim

Jim, to answer your question real quick...

Local match fees are in the $15-20 range.

[pskys2]

Hmmm, lots of input.

IDPA has 5 (6 w/BUG) Divisions listed. CAS has almost too many to mention. ICORE has 2 w/a 6 shot sub class. USPSA has 5 (w/SS being a 6th provisional). So USPSA isn't really out of line as it stands now, either way SS goes.

But, what's the purpose of SS? Mags are limited in round count (not unusual) and in size (looks better than a 1"+ extension). Gear is carryable? The biggie, a specific firearm design model is "Required".

Is the purpose to cater to only 1911 SS Classic devotees? What then of the Glock contingent, there are quite a few GSSF competitors? Will the next move be to set up a Glock Provisional Division?

Is it to cater to the Practical/Defensive enthusiasts? But, they must only shoot a 1911.

The further we go from the original intent of IPSC, remember the "all guns must compete against one another", to find the best weapon for this purpose the harder this argument will get.

If we take it as the sport it is being run as now, I think we will have to accept the idea of many Divisions.

Just some idle ramblings.

P.S.

What of a Carry Division (instead of SS), set up to allow std 1911 with no Mag Well or Base Pads, and smaller firearms, with a limited mag capacity and carry type gear. Then "NOT" requiring 1911's. Make the Round Limits to 8 Rd in the gun (use 7 rd Mags in a 1911 and load down others).

Just a wacky idea but wouldn't this intice more of the SS Classic, Carry guys and IDPA than the existing SS rules? Wouldn't this fit into the Scheme of USPSA Divisions philosophy?

Generally:

Open Anything Goes Mag Capacity limited only by length

Limited Anything with no comps & Iron Sights Mag Capacity limited only by length

Production Any non modified Production Pistol (held to strict limits w/approved guns) Mag Capacity limited to 10, because of lowest common denominator of legal issues for OEM's

Revolver A whole different "TYPE" of handgun with manufacturing/strutural limits on Capacity

Limited 10 Anything, as per Limited Mag Capacity limited due to Governmental Legal Issues (still in effect for some)

Edited September 29, 2006 by pskys2