Limited 10 Or Single Stack Division?

[bgary]

I think it would be a good thing for interested persons, to at least express their opinion one way or another to their AD's so that they've got a good feel what the masses are thinking in the trenches.

Totally agree. the Area director's job (or, at least one of the jobs), is to represent the interests of the shooters of their Area in the board-table discussion. Yours can't do that if you don't tell him what you think.

B

[38superman]

Or y'all are reading a bit too much into a tiny phrase. Remember the last time the BOD agenda was posted and everyone flew into a tizzy about nothing?

It would probably be helpful if USPSA were to post a short summary of each topic along with the agenda so we wouldn't have to flog through these sorts of discussions every time an agenda is posted.

Not that writing to your AD and MV is a bad thing...they all need more feedback and not just about the L10 issue.

Since many of the BOD post here, perhaps one of them will be kind enough to enlighten us with the gospel instead of rumor.

+1

I am as heavily invested in L10 as anyone but I see no reason to be overly concerned at this point.

If any division has enough support among the rank and file members the BOD is not going to ignore that.

If it doesn't have enough support they can't ignore that either.

I trust the people we elected to look at the big picture, weight the options and come up with reasonable solutions.

We've repeatedly let them know how we feel.

Now lets allow them do their job.

Tls

[zhunter]

I have NO dog in this fight, but....

If the BoD and Area Directors ONLY went with the e-mails and feedback they get, there would be no divisions. Let me explain:

"The squeaky wheel get's oiled", by this I mean, the vast majority of the contact that the powers that be get is negative. So, if they based their decisions on feedback, then they would get rid of everything.

People that are happy VERY seldom send correspondence saying, "Gee, I love what you are doing, keep it up!!!"

So, let's take some of this with a grain of salt.

Would I shoot L10, not likely. Will I shoot SS, well, let me put it this way. I bought a gun and have started loading .45's.

I am a Limited shooter, but will dable in SS

[bgary]

BTW, many of us will be in Tulsa the week after next. If there's an opportunity to meet some benos-forum faces and exchange some ideas, that'd be A Good Thing...

Area-1: squad 36 (me)

Area-3: squad 6 (Manny Bragg)

Area-4: squad 5 (Ken Hicks)

Area-5: squad 11 (Gary Stevens)

Area-8: squad 12 (George Jones)

And of course El Pres in squad 6

B

[Flexmoney]

Just wait until they are the on-deck shooter to start in with the discussion..

[XRe]

Just wait until they are the on-deck shooter to start in with the discussion..

Now that sounds like a plan!!!

[Gary Stevens]

It doesn't bother me for anyone to start a discussion with me when I am on deck. The only thing I ask is to wait until I am finished with the conversation I am having with myself

Gary

[bgary]

Some day I gotta learn how to have a plan....

Until then, feel free to talk to me whenever. Just make sure I can hear you over the voices in my head...

B

Edited September 27, 2006 by bgary

[38superman]

Just wait until they are the on-deck shooter to start in with the discussion..

Perhaps, a good way to start that conversation would be:

"Hey... what division are you shooting in?"

Tls

[EricW]

Bruce,

I am in favor of any plan that reduces the # of divisions.

[Bigbadaboom]

I'm in favor of whatever keeps more shooters involved in the sport.

Disclaimer: I do not take this same position when it comes to the classification system.

[et45]

Voigt's column in Front Sight has the time table for the new rules.In Dec. the draft rules will be released for review and comment, ie.suggestions or complaints .

Edited September 27, 2006 by et45

[Jim Norman]

My personal feelings on the subject of divisions.

We have currently the following

Open (I shoot occasionally)

Limited (I shoot almost exclusively)

Limited-10 (I shoot occasionally)

Production (Probably my second home)

Revolver (Well, I did shoot enough classifiers to get classified)

SS (I have not yet shot, but I have several and I plan to shot a couple matches this winter)

What would I do?

I would keep the divisions that we have and that includes Single Stack. I would perhaps add in two categories or maybe shadow categories for Open-10 and Open Revolver.

I think that what is needed is not 6 Nationals, but one National where all divisions shoot on the same stages at the same time. How many stages? Maybe 36. Shoot for 5 days. 7 slots a day or maybe 14 half-day slots with smaller squads. We could accommodate 650 individual shooters. Or to put it another way, we could have 100 plus shooters per division at the Nationals. Maybe it would become a best of the best. We can be the place where all the action shooters can come and compete. If we start tossing divisions, we will alienate many people. We are far too small a group to do this. We need to be an inclusive group of exclusive people.

In other words, so long as the handgun in question is a viable combat handgun in the modern sense (No single action revolvers, no single shot muzzle loaders etc.) we should have a place for them.

In some states you cannot have more than a 10 round mag, unless you had it years ago, others you cannot have it at all. Why not a shadow division of Open-10 for these people? When they get to go where they can play with full capacity, they can, but at home they can play on a level field. Limited-10 is Limited with a reduced capacity mag. Since we already have this division, why anger hundreds of people by taking it away. Remember, only a small portion of our shooters goes to the Nationals or Area matches. There are many, probably the majority that shoot at a couple local clubs and that is the total of their involvement. These shooters are the support structure for the whole organization. If we anger them and they stay home, we have nothing. We, the people that travel to big matches and shoot at virtually every available opportunity would not have the places to shoot that we do if the people that only shoot locally stop. Who will build the club matches?

What is wrong with having enough divisions so that almost anyone that wants to has a place to play? There are a couple things we would need to address to make this viable. Mostly they are covered in another thread. To eliminate the possibility of sandbagging I would have one classification for all divisions. Your present highest classification would be your new “All Divisions Class” You would need to shoot three classifiers each year that meet the lowest percentage accepted in the division with your highest percentage or you would revert to a temporary “U”. The only division I might exempt is Revolver since it is so vastly different. I don’t think we need a division for every gun, but I do think we should have a division for virtually every class of gun.

Why should we tell people that sorry, you can’t play here with that gun, you need to go buy a XXX to play here. True enough the shooters Brand Y might be less than competitive, but we need to let the guy play. Likely enough, if we welcome him in, he will eventually buy a gun for a different division and continue with us. If we start off telling him that he can’t play unless he goes out and spends a grand on a new rig likely he just won’t play at all.

My 1-1/2 cents

Jim

[n2ipsc]

Some day I gotta learn how to have a plan....

Paraphrasing an obviously forgettable movie whose name eludes me at present, "I HAVE a Plan; to have a Plan!!"

[Gary Stevens]

I am to say the least bit befuddled about the issue of "too many divisions". There are no rules or policies, that I am aware of, that require any match or tournament to recognize all of the divisions. All the match has to do is tell the shooters what divisions they are going to recognize. This allows the free market to work and the shooters can choose to shoot the match or not.

I hear the arguement about the "dilution" of a partucular division by low numbers. We are increasing our total membership, and hopefully our numbers in various divisions. Even if the dilution of a particular division is true, the only folks who pay the price are those who choose to shoot in those divisions.

Our members choose to join USPSA. They make choices on what division (s) they want to compete in. If they are happy in what they are doing, then that is good enough for me.

Gary

Edited September 28, 2006 by Gary Stevens

[Flexmoney]

There are no rules or policies, that I am aware of, that require any match or tournament to recognize all of the divisions. All the match has to do is tell the shooters what divisions they are going to recognize.

Yeah right.

I'm in favor of whatever keeps more shooters involved in the sport

.

As good as that may sound...

I don't partularily want to go for quantity over quality.

With Revolver division, we really don't lose anything by giving them a place to play. Even though that division isn't real popular, we get a few shooters extra that we wouldn't normally get. (And, they get quite a few more matches a month/year to shoot that they wouldn't have available.)

With Single Stack, I don't see us pulling in the extra shooters to offset those that we lose from L-10.

SS as a sub-set of L-10 ? If we had to...

[Carmoney]

Guys, don't worry too much about pressure for more revolver divisions ("Open Revo" or whatever). I think I'm about as in tune with what's going on with the revolver shooters as anybody out there, and I can tell you there is no meaningful consensus for such a thing. A few voices, nobody all that serious.

We will happily and enthusiastically continue to grow as a division as long as we have a place to play. The current Revolver division rules are fine (although we have proposed a few minor changes to make it a bit more inclusive, and it would be even better if those changes are adopted by the BOD!) Participation-wise, 2006 was the best year ever (by far) for Revolver division in USPSA, it's great to see it really begin to take off. We'll probably always be relatively small, but we've gone a long way this year to proving we're a viable and necessary equipment division.

Just as one small example, our home club here in Iowa is hosting a special Level II match next weekend, and we already have significantly more wheelguns signed up to shoot than we had at last year's Revolver Nationals! (I'm hoping that fact pushes Bruce up to 50.1%!)

I know this is veering a little off-topic, but since it came up.......

[Gary Stevens]

Flex you say "Yeah right" to my statement about no policy or rule to offer all of the divisions. Do you know of one that I am missing?

Gary

[JakeMartens]

I guess I will throw in, what is wrong with how it is now?

As of right now the shooters have the option of being able to play in several fields if they want.

If they want to shoot Open, got it

If they want to shoot Hi Cap guns with iron sights, got it

If they want to shoot Revolver or a good old 1911, got it

If they want to shoot a Production gun with no mods or little mods, got it

If they want to modify it, or get scored major instead of minor for their .40 or .45acp production gun, got it L10.

If they live in a state where they can't have hi cap mags in their iron sight hi cap gun, got it L10

If they want to shoot the old 1911 with 10 rounders, got it.

Why limit the options of what to shoot in?

I think it is silly to assume that with the introduction of Single Stack you no longer need Limited 10. Not everyone in L10 is using a single stack gun.

To me Limited 10 is the catch all division that can satisfy almost all shooters.

What to modify your production gun, shoot L10

Don't want to dump a ton of money on hi cap mags, shoot L10

SS w/10 rounders L10, don't want to reload and download your .40 or .45acp, shoot L10 and so on....

If membership is growing with the divisions we have now, what kind of business decision would it be to eliminate the options out there that are bringing in new shooters?

I say activate the classifiers for single stack, define the rules for single stack and production with regards to modifications and leave everything else alone for awhile and see where it goes.

[Flexmoney]

Flex you say "Yeah right" to my statement about no policy or rule to offer all of the divisions. Do you know of one that I am missing?

Gary

Just the nature of things. What match director wants to be the hard-ass that tells a shooter that they don't honor the division that they showed up to shoot at the local club match ?

[Gary Stevens]

I guess my point is that it remains a free market decision, not a USPSA decision. MD's make their decisions based on their own clubs/matches needs or their own safety and well being And the shooters also have that decision making ability based on what divisions are offered at any particular match.

As long as the base foundation of our sport, the local clubs and matches have the ability to be flexible based on their own needs or wants, I don't see any problem with what we have now.

Gary

[Jim Norman]

Flex you say "Yeah right" to my statement about no policy or rule to offer all of the divisions. Do you know of one that I am missing?

Gary

Just the nature of things. What match director wants to be the hard-ass that tells a shooter that they don't honor the division that they showed up to shoot at the local club match ?

If you show up with a revolver and youare the only one, we will honir you by posting your scores. If you get five people in your division or three in your class, we will honir division and/or class wins. If no one shows up to shoot a particular division, we don't award anything. Really very simple.

At our upcomming Multi-GUn, we are only recognizing Limited and Tactical. Sorry to Open, you are welome at our Rifle only and shotgun only matches. THe multi-gun is for the traditional 3-gunners.

Keep all six current divisions and then add in recognition or alternates for Open REvolver and Open-10.

Jim

[Flexmoney]

As long as the base foundation of our sport, the local clubs and matches have the ability to be flexible based on their own needs or wants, I don't see any problem with what we have now.

Gary

Gary,

What I am trying to communicate is that I believe that the flexibility that you speak of is mostly just a paper reality.

But, you are right, in that the Match Director does have to power to say to the shooter, "no..go away...we aren't going to recognize all the USPSA divisions."

[pskys2]

Guys one other person to get your ideas to is your Section Coordinator. The SC should have frequent contact with your AD and your views can be asserted more frequently. Kind of a multiplier effect. Plus there is usually a SC meeting at one of the Nationals (course it's been a bit over a decade since I was an SC, so what do I know now).

[omnia1911]

I love how quickly those black helicopters can get off the ground.

Dunno that I can give you 'gospel' (well, I can, but that's out of a different book), but... here's what I know:

The USPSA Board is at least a year into a long debate about divisions, specifically "what should our divisions be". There is considerable *lack* of consensus. Some believe we should have separate divisions for every type of gun (which would lead us down the road towards Open-10 and Open-Revolver and who knows what else). Some believe we have too many divisions, for a variety of reasons, some centered on competition (eg, does it make sense to have 30 shooters at a club match, and *all* of them can win first in class in a division?), some based on more pragmatic views (does it make sense to have divisions where there is not enough participation to support a Nationals?)

Putting this on the agenda is nothing more than making sure that we [continue] to discuss the topic. We've gotta reach resolution on it, but I am not aware of any concerted or coordinated effort to get rid of either L10 or SS. I am only aware of effort to figure out where those guns (and all the shooters that own them) fit *best* into our competition structure going forward.

BTW, to answer the question before it comes up, I fall in the "I think we have too many divisions" camp. As I have posted here many times, I think we should have 3 divisions - Open, Limited and Production. *Within* those divisions, we could do categories based on reduced capacity (eg, shooting Limited division with 10-rounds-only would make you eligible for an *additional* category award, separate from division placement), single stack, etc.

I am about 49.9% persuaded, thanks to JerryV and Carmony and others, that we should really have *four* divisions... since the divisions are based on equipment differences, and it is fairly obvious that revolver equipment is "different enough" to warrant its own division.

Anyway, that's where I am, and that's where we are headed: more *discussion*, but no "plan" that I am aware of.

Bruce

PS - Hi, Steve!

If we establish categories within a division, will we carry a classification for each category, or will the classifications be at the division level only? In other words, if L10 and SS become a category of Limited, will L10, SS, and Limited compete with each other for a combined score under a single Limited division classification?

How will awards and prizes be handled for category competitors? Order of finish prize tables for each division will take away the incentive for someone to compete in a division's category using disadvantaged equipment. Why would I compete for a Limited division prize table against a high cap S_I using SS equipment rules? So I get an extra plaque for my SS win, but loose out on a chance to win a gun at the prize table due to my equipment disadvantages effecting my order of finish in the division.

More divisions does not equal more membership. Show me the evidence. Since we went from 2 to 6 divisions how much has membership increased on an annual basis?

If the clubs have too few shooters in a division, stop running so many divisions. Just let the shooters know at least a month ahead of time what your format will be.

Do we need to recognize every division at the Nationals?