How Do You Catch A Shooter Sandbaggin'

[38superman]

I have always been intrigued by the accuracy of the classification system.

My overall score in Area and National matches is usually within one or two percent of my current classification.

The system works well and reflects a shooter's ability fairly accurately when used as intended.

My only problem is when Joe Blow hasn't filed a classifier since Ronald Reagan was president.

He shows up at a major match (not level III where a good performance might get him bumped up), signs up for C class then wins it with an A or Master class score.

He picks up the prizes and trophies and you don't see him again until he repeats this scenario next year.

This needs to be addressed.

Isn't it time we put a requirement of (x) classifers shot within the last (x) months or you shoot unclassifed until you do.

Tls

[Chills1994]

Hey Mistral404,

No....No...No...I am not saying classifying people on how they do "statistically" at a match.

Sorry I didn't explain that better in my other post. Yes, of course, statistically doing well at one major match in say Florida could make you an "A" shooter, but that doesn't mean you can hang with the other statistically classified "A" shooters from say Texas.

What I am saying is scrap the classification (mnn...err... handicapping) system all together.

All of the Production shooters shoot against each other.

All of the Limited shooters shoot against each other.

And so on.

Rank order from first to last place all of the production shooters. All of the limited, and so on.

Now calculate the mean, median, the percentiles and the standard deviations within each division.

Hand out trophies and/or prizes based on who's final score is closest to the 25 percentile, or one stand dev better than the mean. Give out a trophy/prize for closest to the mean/median. And then give out another trophy/prize for one stand dev below or the 75th percentile.

I tried kicking around some scores from major IDPA matches, but within each division/class, IIRC the smallest S.D I got was 40 something seconds. That's within the SAME class in the SAME division. That was for semi-autos because there are just too few revolver shooters out there to draw from.

Mistral404, please let me know what you think of a 40 second S.D. w/in a division/class in IDPA. What would you interpret from that?

So for the other USPSA members out there who would peruse the the area and sectional match results, they would see that John Smith won the 25th percentile or 1 S.D. above the mean trophy and won such and such prize. Of course, USPSA could come up with a better name for that place like: "Ophelia Butts was the Production Division Champ, John Smith won 1st squad Production, Phil McCrackin won 2nd squad Production, and so on."

For the folks who placed dead last in each division, I would give them a special raffle ticket for some super duper prize that would help get them more into the shooting sports. I would call it the "Tail End Charlie Raffle." Of course, I might want to keep the actual prize undisclosed as I could see some folks gaming it to finish dead last.

I totally forgot about the T, Z, and F thing. Thanks for reminding me about Mistal404.

Chills

[JFD]

Just to be clear, you'll never hear me say "I'm not willing to finance the M/GM's prize table".

My main interest in in overall results and how far down my name is.

I think the classification system is a good thing, and a good way for folks like me who will likely never make Master class (I'm beginning to doubt A class ) to gauge their performance in a way other than "I suck".

However class placement should be trophy only. The prize table should be based on order of finish. Random drawing most certainly, without a doubt, should be reserved to charity matches only. Like I said in another thread, I'd rather win used primers based on my ability than a new gun based on dumb luck.

How big of a problem is this anyway? Do a lot of new shooters go to big matches to get their feelings hurt by order of finish prize tables? If there are enough shooters I can "win" cash in the form of a discounted match fee for class performance at our local matches.

I think sandbagging could be stopped by simply moving anyone up a class who finishes a big match (sectional+) at a percentage above their classification. This could also really screw up the plans of those Master class Limited shooters who suddenly decide to shoot L-10 or SS in a big match because they aren't classified and can shoot in "A" class for what might be an easy class or division win.

Did I mention that random drawings are a terrible thing?

[MWGDVC]

The Alabama section addressed one aspect of this by requiring, in the section bylaws, that a shooter, in order to be eligible for section champion recognition, had to be an "active" section member. Active is defined as, if memory serves, having shot a minimum of three approved matches within the Alabama section within the previous twelve months. Since "approved"= classifier in the match, it is easy to check a shooter's history.

USPSA could easily adopt an "active shooter" policy to eliminate the A class shooter with a three year old C card, no current classifiers, syndrome. The shooter would still be eligible for overall standing, just like an unclassified shooter, just ineligible for class recognition.

[pskys2]

I think your highest classification should count for all divisions except Revolver.

Those round thingies ain't normal.

Neither are we who stroke'em!

In order to stop Sandbagging, you don't want to ever let their class drop or go back to "U". That just starts the curve back up. I knew a competitior who claimed he'd quit shooting for a couple of years so he could get reclassified. Seemed kind of extreme, but?

Another issue is this sport is starting to age. And once you hit the golden years things can slow down. Even a JM or TGO will slow down "someday". I never would have believed I'd be at it over a quarter of a century!

Edited September 28, 2006 by pskys2

[Jim Norman]

pskys2,

If you read back through the thread I think you will find that several people have proposed that unless a shooter submits three valid classifiers each year he would revert to "U", BUT upon submission of said classifers his previous classification would be returned.

Example, I have an 83% in Limited. If I were to not submit any classifcation scores for a full year, my "A" card would swith to a "U", however, all I need do is submit three classifers in Limited at 75% or better. A shooter would have only one classification, not two. If you choose to shoot Revolver or Single Stack where their percentage may be low, they would need to shoot three valid classifers in their "Best" division to maintain their Card.

No worry this way that a shooter would allow his card to lapse simply to be able to work his way s-l-o-w-l-y back through the system.

As is currently allowable, a shooter could petition to drop for reasons of permanent disability of age.

Jim

[kurtm]

I love shooting U, the only unfortunate part is this is also where the "new guys" end up. I really don't care about anything other than over all, but I also hate taking something away from the new shooter. If it weren't for that, I would be a U too.

[Mistral404]

Chills 1994,

Remember an SD of 40 should also be in the context of variance. But I suspect without seeing the data it means that sometimes you really put together a stage and other times you have either a senior moment or a brain fart.

I typically suffer from both maladies. Hence, my SD would be large also.

That is why subtracting the mean and dividing by the SD should give you a z-score which will show the true percentage. I think this is called normalizing the data.

Not the IT normalization of a data base -- for the geeks out there.

I really like what they did at the Dual Championships in CA a few months ago. First Place won a gun (great sponsors thanks to Mike and Souzan), everything else was by drawing.

Sorry Matt.

I was ponderind the sandbagger situation while at the airport. The current classifier system, to me, seems to be oriented towards the original fundamentals of our sprot. Establishing levels of expertise in free style, strong hand, weak hand accurate shooting. Then add some movement in the mix. I am not saying where we are is bad but it does seem like there is a dicotomy between reality of current matches and the foundation of our game.

I am more at ease with this dicotomy now then I was before. I do like all the suggestions on how to deal with sandbaggers with regards to them personally.

Edited September 29, 2006 by Mistral404

[Harmon]

prize table by order of finish. ribbons or medals for class winners...

reward the shooters for busting thier ass and getting good and winning.

If this upsets you, perhaps you should save your money on the big match fees and buy more ammo to practice with.

for those who cant win now, if you moved the sandbaggers out of your class would you win then?? probably not.

Raffle prize tables suck!. if all the matches used them you might as well pay 150 bucks, shoot 300 rounds at nothing and do the raffle..its kinda a prize you didnt earn

recently i have been accused of being sandbagger. I had been working 60+ hours a week and going to night classes.. in three months i shot 2 local matches. but i did not stop practicing at home and on my few days off. I was stuck in B just because i couldnt shoot enough classifiers to move out. Now im A and probably will still be accused of sandbagging.

Harmon

[hiropro]

in my old club we had a few guys who would always stay in A class. they would throw it in the qualifiers and then go full bore out for the prize shoots. Freaking horrid. But on my 3 rd match I spanked one and he never forgave me either.

Hiro

[Jaxshooter]

I am not sure what the solution or if there is a solution to sand bagging. It is all sports with a classification system. I do think the idea of one classification for all divisions is a good one.

If you are A class in Limited you should shoot A class in Open or Revolver, it is just a matter of getting use to the gun. All divisions take the same skills.

[Fireant]

If you are A class in Limited you should shoot A class in Open or Revolver, it is just a matter of getting use to the gun. All divisions take the same skills.

Hey Chris,

I'm not so sure about this now. This strong hand weak hand junk is kicking my limited behind with the new open blaster

[lynn jones]

this thread has gone on a long time. i think the real question is "what can you do to a sandbagger?" not much.

lynn

[Jim Norman]

It has been said many times here. We CAN eliminate sandbaggers siply by requiring three valid classifers in any twelve month period or you revert to a provisional U. You'd keep your percentage, but you would only be shooting for overall position. One other caveat is that this would work better if there was only one classication across all divsions. Along with this, I would use the highest classifactions in any division where the current percentage is below the base for that division. In other words, if you area an A in Limited, and shoot revolver, you are a U until you shoot 4 classifers, same as now, but then we would count the highest 6 classifers regardless of the percentages until you reach 70%, after all you are already an A by default. THis way you would actually havea better chance to elevate your percentages in other divison where you only occasionally dabble.

No more sandbagging. Or at least it has becomes very difficult.

Jim

[kurtm]

The only problem with this is that if you give a plaque for the High U shooter, it should be going to the NEW shooters. With this system U would almost never be won by a new shooter, it would be won by guys who don't shoot pistol matches very often, but shoot pistols quite a bit, like many 3-gunners I know. Do we really want that to happen? I mean look at it from the new guy angle. Here he shoots as good as he can, and watches someone else in his "class" smoke him by 70%. He won't be encouraged to ever come shoot again! While I was U, I NEVER accepted the palque for the "win" in that class, only the High over all, as the U should go to the new shooter! I told the match director right up front not to even mention my name at the awards ceremony, unless it was high over all. Why...well I was hardly a "new" shooter, just "new" to USPSA. KURTM

[Nate]

After several years of being M limited I finally shoot classifiers consistantly in M. The worst part was being called a sandbagger by the club president when handing out trophies during the four years it took me to move through the classes to M class. I want to shoot Production Natinoals if it happens early next year and don't have any classifers. I probably come in A class and get the "lable" again. I never even think about other shooters and there class. Who cares, I am shooting against me.

[Jim Norman]

The only problem with this is that if you give a plaque for the High U shooter, it should be going to the NEW shooters. With this system U would almost never be won by a new shooter, it would be won by guys who don't shoot pistol matches very often, but shoot pistols quite a bit, like many 3-gunners I know. Do we really want that to happen? I mean look at it from the new guy angle. Here he shoots as good as he can, and watches someone else in his "class" smoke him by 70%. He won't be encouraged to ever come shoot again! While I was U, I NEVER accepted the palque for the "win" in that class, only the High over all, as the U should go to the new shooter! I told the match director right up front not to even mention my name at the awards ceremony, unless it was high over all. Why...well I was hardly a "new" shooter, just "new" to USPSA. KURTM

Kurt,

Maybe I am off base just a bit here, but If I am understanding all of this, U can only win High Overall in Division. There is no real "U" class like there is A, B, C, or D. So any unclassified shooter is shooting for High overall only. If the proposal above sounds good otherwise, I suppose we could replace "U" with "Z". If you have not shot at least three valid classifiers in the past 12 mothns you are now a "Z" shooter, shooting for High Overall only. You still have your percentage and only need to submit the three required scores to regain your classifiaction whatever it may be.

Jim

[shred]

Yeah, there's no reason to overload the "Novice-shooter-without-enough-classifications" category with the "experienced shooter with expired classifications" category. Adding one letter wouldn't kill anybody except the EZWS authors

I like the idea of a novice class that shooters either exit via winning the class (assuming some competition), or voluntarily deciding not to shoot it anymore. Coaching rules and such could be more lenient for Novice shooters.

[38supPat]

The easiest way to solve the problems with sandbaggers is....Improve your shooting until you are not in their class anymore, then if you get good enough you won't have to worry about trying to get prizes through silly things like random draws and actually earn the stuff you take home.

[justinwb]

Its pretty obvious when someone hoses classifiers when you see them shoot 80% haha

[ima45dv8]

I wish it was that easy to identify. When I started getting enough decent classifier scores behind me to make a run at B class, I started trying (uh-oh, we know what THAT does) to shoot an upscale score on every classifier I came to. Sometimes this meant I would win my class at local matches, and even division on a few occasions, but would trash the crash-ifiers. This viscious cycle went on for way too long.

I wasn't sandbagging but accepted the comments as good-naturedly as possible. I went so far as to turn down some pretty good coin and a trophy at a section-level so I wouldn't have to listen to that #!%@.

Not evereybody that wins their class at a match is a sandbagger.

Edited October 19, 2006 by ima45dv8

[Jadepanther]

the talk about all the so called sandbagging I think is way over done.

Couple things to think about

1) what do you gain by sandbaggin? supposedly the theory is they intentionally shoot below there skill level in classifiers so they don't move up in classification, then they would have a better chance at winning in that class in a Major, so they can hit the prize table. Here is why the theory that there are tons of sandbaggers is in my opinion incorrect.

a) if you win 1st or 2nd in a major and shoot into the next class(pretty much gonna have to happen to win in most cases) you get moved up to the next class, so people can't sandbag forever.

the time and money spent on participating in a major vs the prize isn't good. For example I spent about $500 dollars on my first major, I got 2nd in my class, and shot into the next class. what did I win? a check for $25.00 and a $10.00 plaque.

c) It would be very difficult, to nearly impossible to consitantly sandbag, shoot the correct percentage you needed to shoot in a major to get win and not get moved up.

I think all the talk about all the so called sandbagging going on is way off. Me personally I would rather be classified as a Master than to try and sandbag to win something in a lower class, not to mention the fact its nearly impossible to come out ahead financially sandbagging. I think the entry fee's should be either lowered, or if were going to pay $140.00 entry fee's and we win we should get a nice reward that would compensate for the money spent on entry fee's, travel, hotel, food, extra ammo to practice, ect.

Edited December 30, 2006 by Jadepanther

[mwx40x40]

Is it overated? Here is what can be gained. Check out the contingency winners for some firearms mfg. For example a "C" class winner in three major matches could pick up $850 not to mention what they get from the prize table or addtional checks. And from what I understand is if there are no GM's in their category they do not get bumped up.

My .02 worth

[SIXXgun]

I've only shot pistols for a year or so...but I grew up playing golf....and sandbaggers are all the same no matter what sport your'e in. If you shoot often enough, you know when you are having a decent day, a good day, an exceptional day, or if you should just smile and carry some white tape with you. Walk around and watch other shooters who are posting hit factors similar to yours and after you see them shoot, you know whether or not they should be in your class or not. Compare you results to theirs and not the shooters in your class only. So you might miss out on a cool prize from the table now and then...if everybody else spots the sandbaggers they know that the second place guy really won.

There will always be some jerk bragging about how he beat all the A shooters. Try to congratulate him and tell him that if he keeps practicing and shooting well he just might be able to finally move up into their class someday. "Don't worry - you'll eventually make it" or something like that. And smile nice and wide when you tell them. Talking trash with a sincere smile on your face always drives the point home. It will burn him up. Talking trash should be done tactfully...it gets under their skin easier.

And if the jerk doesn't get the point...just kick his ball out of bound as you speed by (or cover up up a couple Alphas before the scorer counts them). Just kidding. It has crossed my mind though.

JM

[Jadepanther]

I've only shot pistols for a year or so...but I grew up playing golf....and sandbaggers are all the same no matter what sport your'e in. If you shoot often enough, you know when you are having a decent day, a good day, an exceptional day, or if you should just smile and carry some white tape with you. Walk around and watch other shooters who are posting hit factors similar to yours and after you see them shoot, you know whether or not they should be in your class or not. Compare you results to theirs and not the shooters in your class only. So you might miss out on a cool prize from the table now and then...if everybody else spots the sandbaggers they know that the second place guy really won.

There will always be some jerk bragging about how he beat all the A shooters. Try to congratulate him and tell him that if he keeps practicing and shooting well he just might be able to finally move up into their class someday. "Don't worry - you'll eventually make it" or something like that. And smile nice and wide when you tell them. Talking trash with a sincere smile on your face always drives the point home. It will burn him up. Talking trash should be done tactfully...it gets under their skin easier.

And if the jerk doesn't get the point...just kick his ball out of bound as you speed by (or cover up up a couple Alphas before the scorer counts them). Just kidding. It has crossed my mind though.

JM

Apparently I only took into consideration Level III and above matches.

Yeah I remember sandbaggers in Bowling and golf, they sandbagged to get a higher handycap

The way I see it is this. I will wave at the sandbaggers as I level past them.