Is Singlestack A Failure?

[tightloop]

Dv8

Course design is another thread entirely...but you can PM me to discuss course architecture and design elements that might interest you..

and BTW...I was the MD for 5 yrs so it isn't just empty keystrokes...

[ima45dv8]

TL, course design has already been brought up many times in this thread. You've made several suggestions on that subject so far.

For me, it's pretty simple. If I don't like the stages I find at matches, for whatever reason(s), I have limited options:

1.) Design and build stages for the next match

2.) Don't shoot at that club any more

3.) Shake the hands of the people who did work to produce the match and say "Thank You!"

A tip o' the hat to you for your work as MD.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Single stack is off to a slow start at the worst. But i can remember shooting production division when 4 or 5 of 80 shooters were shooting that division. Now many times it is the biggest division at a match. Give it a couple of years.. heck atleast one!!!! by the time we KNEW single stack would exist this year we all had our years goals set for ourselves.

If you don't want L10 to go bye bye then you better do some high talking to the BOD.

I personally feel we should make L10 Limited 8 combine it with single stack. and use the production equipment rules that PSSD already has. then it's pretty fair to everyone there. Lets those 40's that can't load up still compete.

Bottom line is this. We should not make a division for every little gun so everybody can play with their favorite toy this week. In the old days it was "run what you brung" and we saw quite a number of different guns. all of these divisions are great. b ut they come with a price... we now have SIX national champions!!!!! in the same year!!!

nipplehead... if you don't care... what are you trying to stir. maybe you don't mean to sound negative. but it is coming across that way.

[tightloop]

Dv8

There are other options you did not mention...you can incorporate 1 & 3, tell them thanks and ask if they would let you put on the next match, or if they won't do that, suggest some of the types of stages you might like to see..and failing that don;t shoot there till the MD changes positions or philosophy...

I think HQ is trying to do what they think is right and correct...however, you are not going to please everyone everytime...for the last 10 or so yrs, if you did not have big round count stages, no one got to use that 300 dollar big stick mag they bought, so there were lots of those stages...and it is lots of fun to rip off lots of rounds at closely spaced arrays so you saw lots of those as well..but there are other options, IMO...

I do not know when they started disallowing the MD to force you to do certain things, IE: WHO, SHO, mandatory reload...again IMO, those were design elements that allowed great flexibility in course design which now limit what the MD can do..hence huge numbers of targets, gimick props, and a carnival atmosphere. That is the only things the MD has now to use. Long gone are the stages that actually had validity for some skill you might actually need some day, like WHO...making a tough shot at some distance...but...if the round count is high and you get to commiserate with your bud after the match about how you had a DEATH JAM and you just overlooked that array of 3 targets which was 90 degrees to the left of the swinging bridge and just before you get to the double Tx Stars, I guess real shooting skills can take a back seat... No, I am not a tactical person...don't have any black clothes, no nylon gear...no ninja stars or numchucks...just think there should be a little moderation...I don't think it is going to turn around suddenly..I just think it has gone too far in the current direction and there needs to be consideration given to slowing the slide down this slope...I see inclusion of SS as a tiny step in this direction and am glad for it...

Two yrs ago, I shot the Space City shoot...one of the stages made you carry a stick horse with you till you got to the end of the bay, about 30 yds, and opened a port to engage the last 4 targets...If that isn't CARNIVAL I just don't know what it is..and they balked at my attaching a towel ring from my golf bag to my belt...guess I should have arbitrated that call...LOL

Just using this forum for one of its ancillary purposes, to investigate the response to some of the changes some of us might like to see made in the sport and what the supporting points from opposing shooters might be...it is interesting

[ima45dv8]

You paint with a pretty broad brush, TL. Huge numbers of targets, gimick props, and a carnival atmosphere are not the only things the MD has now to use. Sometimes we do use props, and shooters like lots of targets to shoot at, but that isn't the *only* going on at today's matches.

As I said to you yesterday, shooting skills are still a requisite to a good match performance in this area (and others I have visited). Maybe that wasn't the case at the last match you attended, but around here you will be challenged to make hard shots. You'll also have the chance to hose some targets -- likely in the same CoF (making shooters shift gears in a CoF can be entertaining ). I really do hope you can make it to the Atlanta area and shoot with us sometime.

Something else to consider is the (rather obvious) fact that the vast majority of matches shot within USPSA are Level I events. And FWIW, those MDs are not disallowed from forcing certain actions, like SHO, WHO, Mandatory reloads, etc. The Level I exception ("US1.1.5.1 Level I matches are not required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements or round count limitations.") provides exactly that authority.

**It isn't a free pass for illegal stages requiring things like transitioning from SHO to WHO in the same string, but it does permit a good bit of flexibility in course design.

How does all this relate to the PSSD? Simple -- show up and shoot. Have fun with our skinny guns and short mags. And if we find something we don't like at the match, work to change it, stay home, or accept the efforts of the volunteers who built the match.

[DougBarnes101]

I for one would hate to see L-10 go away but if it does I will shoot Limited with my 10 round mags. I know that I won't be competitive but I am out to have fun. Or I may buy a 9mm and shoot single stack. (Once the ten round mags that work become available.) I just don't see a reason to do away with any divisions but that is just me.

[GmanCdp]

by no means,i'm not an expert in anything[except CDP],but in 2005,HOPALONG drug me off to 2 uspsa matches..the 1st in ohio,to the revolver nationals and then the 2nd to Dickson Tn at the state....while shooting in Dickson, i met and talked to Gary Stevens, and he was talking about the SS divison,using the equipment i had on and talking about welcoming new shooters from the 'other' sport and getting some of the uspsa shooters to get out their SS from the safe and start shooting them again...i shoot L10 with my idpa gear and 10 rnd mags and a few extra holders...no big deal..is it the BOD just wanting to start a whole new division to get rid of L10?? has L10 really run it's course with uspsa shooters??? how about if we did away with limited and put it in open and just make it MINOR,if you dont use optics..let limited shoot with comps[modified division]..then you would have Open major/minor, SS,REV, and PROD..

[ima45dv8]

has L10 really run it's course with uspsa shooters???

Nope. It's alive and well.

[Chuck D]

"I personally feel we should make L10 Limited 8 combine it with single stack. and use the production equipment rules that PSSD already has. then it's pretty fair to everyone there. Lets those 40's that can't load up still compete."

So...to continue enjoying shooting with my SV widebody gun I should have to:

1. Replace my bull barrel, titanuim guide rod, and oversized (gun won't fit in the box with it on) mag well ?

2. Throw out my Safariland 009 and 012 holsters and replace it with a Blade-Tech ?

Thankfully my gun doesn't have a full length dust cover or an accessory rail.

Once again[.....make L10 a category of Limited Division and upgrade SS Division to full Divisional status.

" If you don't want L10 to go bye bye then you better do some high talking to the BOD. "

The elimination of L10 will without a doubt create the largest "rift" amongst the members of this organization. It will affect members in over 6 States plus those that frequent L10 on a regular basis and have made L10 the 3rd most participated in Division in the US. I'm purposely leaving out the number of "localities" that have laws that mirror the AWB.

Quite frankly, if the BOD takes this route...I'll vote with my feet. I have NO intentions of supporting an organization that chooses to negate their responsibilities to a portion of the membership that has been granted and has supported a Division that allows members to compete legally and w/o handicap. There are WAY too many shooting sports that will welcome me and others who feel the same. GSSF, PPC, NRA Action Pistol, SASS, Trap/Skeet/Sporting Clays, Metallic Silhouette, etc,etc,etc....

We as an organization simply have not learned the lessons of the past. The kind of lessons that led to the creation of IDPA in the first place. It isn't all about course design, round count, or match fees. It's also about providing a place for members to utilize LEGALLY OWNABLE guns and feel welcome while doing so. Ever notice that the 10 round limit hasn't been reversed by IDPA? Wonder why....

If I were the King decision maker, I would have rolled L10 into Limited Division as a category and provided SS Division full Divisional status from the get-go. In my opinion, this wasn't done and SS Division was given a 3 year "growth" period so to build a participation base large enough to justify the death of L10. It's a lousy way to advance an agenda by some that NEVER supported L10 in the first place. Talk to those dedicated to the elimination of L10 and propose this very solution. I have... You would think I was talking Greek. They refuse to accomodate L10 in ANY form and THAT'S the real agenda here.

Wheelgun guys/gals...rest assured YOUR next.

Edited June 30, 2006 by Chuck D

[omnia1911]

SS division has 3 years to prove its case for continued existence. What is the benchmark by which the SS division will be judged as a success or failure?

I have to assume that the benchmark will have to exceed the successes, or lack of successes of L10 and Revolver, as they are being discussed as candidates for the chopping block as divisions.

If SS is being added for purely a change in philosophy, such as returning to "our roots", then any measurable benchmark is mute. So, why the 3 years?

The 3 year term will have the decision being made in the next USPSA presidential term. Who is running? Are we headed for a "back to our roots" philosophy after we complete 8 years of a "3 gun is our future" philosophy?

USPSA membership has had an anemic annual growth rate of less than 1% over the last 6 years. It is clear that most of any new division's participation comes from current membership switching divisions, or shooting in multiple divisions.

Can any of the changes USPSA has made in its elected offices or rulebook be considered a success with these membership growth numbers?

SS division gives us yet another misguided chance to hope for a brighter future, another chance at "20,000 in 2000", the day when all will be right with the universe.

....I think I'll go fishing today.

Edited June 30, 2006 by omnia1911

[Matt Griffin]

But why is SS "our roots?" Is the staggered magazine that novel an invention? Frankly, this seems like so much 1911 bias to me. Maybe we can specify that the magazine MUST be single-stack, not just limited to 8 rounds? That way no one can participate unless they have a specific gun. Yet somehow, this is being perceived as "more inclusive".

If you want to have some sort of IROC division, then have a club buy a dozen straight government models and keep them around for match day. No feed ramps, crappy extractor, crunchy trigger, and ammo with a PF above 200. THAT is stock. Otherwise, I don't see a reason why L-10 isn't already the division where the 1911 purists can hang their hat.

H.

[revchuck]

But why is SS "our roots?" Is the staggered magazine that novel an invention? Frankly, this seems like so much 1911 bias to me.

For the first decade of IPSC's existance, the single-stack 1911 was the dominant gun, first in .45 ACP, then in .38 Super. Double-stack 1911s made their first appearance about '88, in the form of a frame from Para-Ordnance. Double-stack 9x19s were common, such as the BHP, Beretta 92 and S&W 59, but the Para frame kit was the first 1911 double-stack. Current Open and Limited guns are mostly 1911 designs (with the obvious exception of Glocks).

Having divisions where other guns can be competitive, now that's relatively novel. If USPSA were to regress to having just Open and Limited, that concept would be history.

The desire for simplicity, and not a little nostalgia, is what is driving the SS train, and I'm all for it.

[Matt Griffin]

But why is SS "our roots?" Is the staggered magazine that novel an invention? Frankly, this seems like so much 1911 bias to me.

For the first decade of IPSC's existance, the single-stack 1911 was the dominant gun, first in .45 ACP, then in .38 Super. Double-stack 1911s made their first appearance about '88, in the form of a frame from Para-Ordnance. Double-stack 9x19s were common, such as the BHP, Beretta 92 and S&W 59, but the Para frame kit was the first 1911 double-stack. Current Open and Limited guns are mostly 1911 designs (with the obvious exception of Glocks).

Having divisions where other guns can be competitive, now that's relatively novel. If USPSA were to regress to having just Open and Limited, that concept would be history.

The desire for simplicity, and not a little nostalgia, is what is driving the SS train, and I'm all for it.

I think the cat's out of the bag, platform-wise. The 1911 enjoyed (and enjoys) such success because it is the best-known platform to customize. It's not inherently superior in any aspect of design to several other firearms, except when the looser rules gave the advantage to customizable guns. Now that the sport has become more popular, options are available to make Glocks, CZ, and a few others accept the minimum modifications to be competitive in the Lim and Open classes. (Extended mags and sight options, as well as internals)

Bullseye is probably the reason why the .45 started off as the default gun, that's what the smiths had experience with. If we were to do away with SS, Prod, and L-10, plenty of other platforms would still be represented. Not the least reason is that a compelling Limited Glock can be built for a bit over a thousand dollars, the jumping off point for most decent stock 1911s, to say nothing of the double-stacks.

I just don't see a compelling reason why singlestack fans can't use an extended mag and compete in L-10. There's absolutely no difference whatsoever, other than the mag sticks out an inch, which helps in seating anyway.

H.

[tightloop]

Houngan

have you read this thread at all...

Not all of the shooters want to shoot with a mag that hangs out more than an inch..the Govt Mod was the pistol that the founders of the sport felt offered the best of the three principles of IPSC, DVC...if you feel like you would like to debate the pros and cons of that decision, just truck over to Paulden, Az and talk to the Col. personally...His body might be old, but his cognitive powers are still with him...good luck with that..

The Govt Mod started life with a capacity of 7+1 then went to 8+1 still flush with the grip...and the design has been around since 1905...I like and have a STI pistol, but SS no more belongs in L-10 than my grandkids Daisy Red Rider is a Palma rifle....if you can't see that, then you also can't understand why the Vette is the original American sports car, why Baseball is the American game, and the drive-in movie was popular...I am probably wasting time, space and energy typing to explain, so I will stop...

You think about it...and let me know what Cooper tells you if you get over that way...

Edited June 30, 2006 by tightloop

[Flexmoney]

Well...I don't get it.

[Chuck D]

"...if you can't see that, then you also can't understand why the Vette is the original American sports car, why Baseball is the American game, and the drive-in movie was popular."

Today's Vette is NOTHING like the Corvettes of yesteryear, Baseball may still be the American game but I'd change that to the Central American game and the drive-in is gone.The common thread here is EVOLUTION.

Yesterday wasn't always good and today isn't as bad as it seems.

Turning the clock back by eliminating one division for the benefit of another will do nothing more that make some "feel good" while cheesing off those whom like L10 and/or shoot non-1911 platform guns.

Wise choice of action.....

"You think about it...and let me know what Cooper tells you if you get over that way... "

Not sure you want to go there. Jeff Cooper, the honorary life Chairman of IPSC renounced IPSC a long time ago. And he championed the Bren 10 as THE gun to own (a variant of the CZ in 10mm) over the 1911-A1.

Try again sir....

Edited June 30, 2006 by Chuck D

[nipplehead]

Houngan

have you read this thread at all...

Not all of the shooters want to shoot with a mag that hangs out more than an inch..

The Govt Mod started life with a capacity of 7+1 then went to 8+1 still flush with the grip...and the design has been around since 1905... SS no more belongs in L-10 than my grandkids Daisy Red Rider is a Palma rifle....i)

Tightloop, I think I read every post, and you are the only one I remember complaining about a mag sticking out and the only one who want 25% of the courses of fire less than 18 rounds. I do believe those conditions already exist ...its called IDPA

Edited June 30, 2006 by nipplehead

[zhunter]

+1

Cuz I like some short courses too!!!

Sorry to upset the apple cart, but TL is NOT on his own here.

I have NO desire to piss in anyones cornflakes, and I have NO desire to see L10 go away. But I am looking forward to shooting SS, and I hope it is here for good!!!

[walangkatapat]

+1

Cuz I like some short courses too!!!

Sorry to upset the apple cart, but TL is NOT on his own here.

I have NO desire to piss in anyones cornflakes, and I have NO desire to see L10 go away. But I am looking forward to shooting SS, and I hope it is here for good!!!

That's good that you want to shoot ss, but it seems to me that there are those that want to piss on L10 and it's beyond me why they would want to do so.

[JFD]

Check out the "good old days' pics in the current Front Sight. Doesn't look like those guys (the 1976 world dominating World Shoot team) would be allowed in SS, they'd have to shoot L-10.

I'm sure none of them would have been interested in 10 round mags. Their traditional carry-type holsters indicate these guys would never go for mags that stick out an inch. I guess in 1976 when the sport was pure, a tied-down gunfighter type holster hanging off a belt straight out of CAS was very practical.......

I no longer shoot L-10, but loved it for 3 years. My wife still shoots in this division. I truely believe L-10 is a big draw for USPSA and screwing it up would screw up USPSA.

I would like to see it as a category in Limited if it would keep L-10 alive. In no way, shape or form should it have anything to do with the SS division. No doubt the equipment freedom would be lost if that was the case.

Equipment freedom, guns that can be competitive without spending $2000+, enough rounds to deal with 9 round arrays and still have a make-up shot or 2 available, and $25 mags are the main draws of L-10 for new shooters. It certainly attracted me and my wife. If I hadn't been the victim of "mag capacity envy" I'd still be shooting L-10.

It's hard to believe anyone would choose to shoot SS or L-10 and actually complain about having to reload a lot. Having to reload a lot is a great way to gain advantage over the folks who can't reload as well. Since I'm a sloth in many ways, I used my fast and super solid reloads to my advantage all the time.

Sorry for the rambling, but I'm practicing being calm in these discussions.

[nipplehead]

Check out the "good old days' pics in the current Front Sight. Doesn't look like those guys (the 1976 world dominating World Shoot team) would be allowed in SS, they'd have to shoot L-10.

I'm sure none of them would have been interested in 10 round mags. Their traditional carry-type holsters indicate these guys would never go for mags that stick out an inch. I guess in 1976 when the sport was pure, a tied-down gunfighter type holster hanging off a belt straight out of CAS was very practical.......

I truely believe L-10 is a big draw for USPSA and screwing it up would screw up USPSA.

I would like to see it as a category in Limited if it would keep L-10 alive. In no way, shape or form should it have anything to do with the SS division. No doubt the equipment freedom would be lost if that was the case.

Equipment freedom, guns that can be competitive without spending $2000+, enough rounds to deal with 9 round arrays and still have a make-up shot or 2 available, and $25 mags are the main draws of L-10 for new shooters.

It's hard to believe anyone would choose to shoot SS or L-10 and actually complain about having to reload a lot. Having to reload a lot is a great way to gain advantage over the folks who can't reload as well. Since I'm a sloth in many ways, I used my fast and super solid reloads to my advantage all the time.

+1 JFD

[m.e.t.]

In the last year I have had the pleasure to introduce several new shooters to this game. When they first asked me I told them shoot what they own. Now with SS joining Production and Limited 10 it makes a little more sense. Not that they could not shoot their 1911's. They just felt the need to buy the 10 round mags. Hey, we all have had the pleasure of jumping in with both feet. But I do like being able to make the intro as easy as possible.

Of the three new shooters. One each is shooting Limited, Lim 10 and SS.

As for the continued health and growth of any division. We the shooters will give them life or sign the death certificate. We show up, we pay the fee and shoot what we want. That is too simple I suppose. But we also get a ballot in the mail.

I also agree that in the coming year. You will see others at least giving SS a try. I like others here started the year knowing that I was shooting the Nats or some other major match. And do not want to shoot anything but our chosen division until then.

[tenchu74]

I have to agree with nipplehead. I think that single stack should be limited to a few novelty matches a year like the single stack classic. USPSA & IPSC are GAMES and limited 10 allows the 1911 to compete in interesting stages against a bunch of targets and to be competitive against other platforms. Besides most of us are geared up for L10. If you want a more realistic match with 8 round mags and no mag wells shoot IDPA.

[MarkS_A18138]

Time to put this to bed. 6 pages in 2 days I feel awesome! I now know the trigger word to freak people out and make them go insane posting is! SINGLE STACK!!!! LOL

Edited July 1, 2006 by MarkS_A18138

[shred]

FWIW, Cooper, as laid down in a 1974 Handguns article only objected to extended magazines in the gun at the start. For reloads they were fair game.

7. Extension magazines for auto pistols (containing a larger than normal number of rounds) are permitted only on reload. and may not be carried in the pistol in its ready condition."