Would you shoot open if it were scored minor?

[lroy]

Not arguing rules or how manly anything is.

I made M in open and decided to try LO for a while. The difference in shooting was less than I expected. Heavy steel 2011s with soft loads just don't recoil much. Other than being loud and somewhat punchy, open guns are not hard to shoot, despite having to use "major" power factor.

 

I'm deciding which division I'd like to focus on and have been going back and forth. The only real difference is the arbitrary extra points. If open were only scored minor, or LO gave 4 points for C hits, it wouldn't even be a choice, I'd drop open in a heartbeat - waayy less wear on my guns.

 

Pointless discussion, but curious what others think. Would you still shoot open if it were scored minor?

[Maximis228]

Major PF leads to approaching stages differently. Dropping less points for Charlies/Deltas means being more aggressive on entries/exits and distance shooting. This will result in overall faster stage times. 

 

All things equal, Major Vs Minor scoring will result in a roughly 5-7 % Difference depending on the stage designs. 

 

I shoot Open minor in practice all the time. Its fun. Open minor is useful in many other games outside of USPSA (PCSL, 3 Gun, Steel Challenge, Outlaw Steel...). 

[Racinready300ex]

I think if open was minor we almost wouldn't need LO. And LO is so similar to CO you almost don't need CO as it is. To that end we could allow comps and ports in LO, keep the slide mounted optic and dump open and CO. The entire sport could almost be one division at that point. 

 

I don't see any of that happening. And major does change the game. I shot open for a couple years, close to 10 years ago now. It was fun, but I don't intend to ever shoot major seriously again.

 

I recently ported one of my LO guns for IDPA just to play around with. I will likely shoot some Open minor with it. I'm also about to put a comp on a compact 2011 I have, that I'll likely shoot in Open some too. So I guess the short answer is yes, if it was a thing I'd shoot it. But, even with it not really being a thing I'm still going to shoot open minor. 

[lroy]

That’s a good point, I forgot that idpa has an open minor division. is it pretty popular? It’s interesting that open gun features are becoming more mainstream. 

[Racinready300ex]

42 minutes ago, lroy said:

That’s a good point, I forgot that idpa has an open minor division. is it pretty popular? It’s interesting that open gun features are becoming more mainstream. 

 

They just call it CO, but it's basically open minor with some other restrictions. It's the most popular division by far. Not everyone is running comps and ports yet but they're slowly trickling in now that they're allowed. It's getting to where it's pretty common to see. 

[MHicks]

IDPA doesn't allow frame mounted optics do they?

[Joe4d]

Division designed for 45 ACP ball ammo.
Complains about beating up gun when shooting it with 9mm.  

I wouldnt want any limits on open,, open should be just that. I mean I doubt we would have the reloading techniques, powder combinations, gun tech, pistol comps, dots, race holsters, magnetic mag holders on and on if it wasnt for Open driving innovation.

[outerlimits]

2 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Division designed for 45 ACP ball ammo.
Complains about beating up gun when shooting it with 9mm.  

I wouldnt want any limits on open,, open should be just that. I mean I doubt we would have the reloading techniques, powder combinations, gun tech, pistol comps, dots, race holsters, magnetic mag holders on and on if it wasnt for Open driving innovation.

^^This

[Racinready300ex]

The problem is Open is dying. At some locals here I might see 1 or 2 open shooters shooting true open guns. Then one or two shooting something like a XC in minor. 

 

Does that matter is the question. I'd say, at least no one seems to care. Most divisions are dying. Remember when Limited was one of the biggest divisions? Now Limited Nationals only get 44 shooters. Times change. 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, MHicks said:

IDPA doesn't allow frame mounted optics do they?

 

Correct, they also have a box and a weight limit. TBH I think their CO rules are better they USPSA's LO or CO rules.

 

The only thing really setting Open apart is Major scoring. 

[caspian guy]

10 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

The problem is Open is dying. At some locals here I might see 1 or 2 open shooters shooting true open guns. Then one or two shooting something like a XC in minor. 

 

Does that matter is the question. I'd say, at least no one seems to care. Most divisions are dying. Remember when Limited was one of the biggest divisions? Now Limited Nationals only get 44 shooters. Times change. 

I think it's possible you are seeing a local variation I don't see open dying at all. Here I see more open than I used to. Almost like CO and LO are the gateways that lead to open.

[waktasz]

No. Don't want to deal with cleaning a comp, 170mm mags or frame mounted sights/race holsters. CO is enough for me. 

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, caspian guy said:

I think it's possible you are seeing a local variation I don't see open dying at all. Here I see more open than I used to. Almost like CO and LO are the gateways that lead to open.

 

Totally possible. 

 

Or maybe dying is a strong word. Shrinking is probably a better word for now. Open still has decent turn out at big matches but with the addition of LO I can see Open taking more of hit in the next 3-5 years. You get all of the fun of Open with less of the headaches. 

 

You can look up the activity reports, LO basically caught Open 3 months after it started. All the divisions are shirking but LO because it's the newest hotness. 

[caspian guy]

In the area I'm in limited and prod are dying. Most of them had been moving to CO to start with.  Now I see more of them moving to (and some CO moving to LO) LO. Some CO shooters have moved to open (looking for major points or more go fast.) l think the data above would be more interesting if there were a way to see who went where (which you could do if you had all the individual classifier data.) If I read the chart correctly you could make the case that  the growth of LO was mostly at the expense of Limited and CO. It may on a local basis have more to do with where the heat is.

[Maximis228]

21 minutes ago, waktasz said:

No. Don't want to deal with cleaning a comp, 170mm mags or frame mounted sights/race holsters. CO is enough for me. 

Ive never cleaned my comps in 10 years of shooting open. But I also use WAC with a PD JHP. 

 

[waktasz]

Well that's a solution but I don't want to shoot $$ bullets either 

[davsco]

15 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Well that's a solution but I don't want to shoot $$ bullets either 

don't think too many folks got into shooting to save money...  ahahaha

[lroy]

It is really cool that the innovations from open trickle down to the mainstream.
 

Maybe a better way to word this would have been, if LO was scored major, would anyone shoot open? 
 

The main thing I realized since playing in LO is that all open really has going for it, is that it arbitrarily gets more points for a c hit. If LO was scored major, it’d be just as fun.

 

again, I’m not suggesting a rule change or anything, it was just something I noticed going from open to limited optics, with the same gun (honcho).

[RJH]

"Would you shoot open if it were scored minor?"

 

Yes, yes I would 

[Barcode1337]

I'd still shoot it. I've been shooting open minor for a year. I don't want to beat up my platypus too much yet until I know what's happening with USPSA. What I like the most about open is the frame mounted optic. I feel like it is visually different than the slide mount.

 

Also, slightly off topic based on an earlier comment - sadly it doesn't feel like Open has been doing much for innovation recently. It's a lot of same old same old.

[caspian guy]

I forgot to answer the question earlier.  Yes I would still shoot open if it were minor only... However what I would prefer them to do is lower major to 150 or something close and put major and minor into most of the divisions....

[shred]

There is an absolute 'immediacy' for lack of a better word, that's missing in CO/LO that you get with Open.  An open gun with a good comp is just ready to shoot again sooner.  

 

Major scoring lets you do different things with stage tactics and is another plus.

[Joe4d]

15 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

The problem is Open is dying. At some locals here I might see 1 or 2 open shooters shooting true open guns. Then one or two shooting something like a XC in minor. 

 

Does that matter is the question. I'd say, at least no one seems to care. Most divisions are dying. Remember when Limited was one of the biggest divisions? Now Limited Nationals only get 44 shooters. Times change. 

I called that years ago when CO dropped the magazine limits..
Said the Open guys would be hanging out with the revolvers after this generation ages out.
Not really any point in spending the coin on an open gun unless you just have an extra 10k laying around..
Can pretty much get same type of game with a 10th the cost and no special ammo.

[RobW]

16 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

The problem is Open is dying. At some locals here I might see 1 or 2 open shooters shooting true open guns. Then one or two shooting something like a XC in minor. 

 

Here in NEPA Open is often the most popular division at locals. Bunch of die hards, me included 

[Racinready300ex]

15 hours ago, caspian guy said:

In the area I'm in limited and prod are dying. Most of them had been moving to CO to start with.  Now I see more of them moving to (and some CO moving to LO) LO. Some CO shooters have moved to open (looking for major points or more go fast.) l think the data above would be more interesting if there were a way to see who went where (which you could do if you had all the individual classifier data.) If I read the chart correctly you could make the case that  the growth of LO was mostly at the expense of Limited and CO. It may on a local basis have more to do with where the heat is.

 

Limited and prod are dying everywhere.

 

I pulled that data from the minutes. If you dig through it all you can see the month LO went live every other division took a hit. Going into the next year you can see every division doing worse and LO steadily climbing. It's vary clear most people that are moving are moving to LO.

 

But, LO is new that's expected. Do people go back after a year or two is yet to be seen. I think most likely LO will overtake CO and every division will continue to suffer. The only thing that can keep CO going will be splitting Nat's like they did this year and doing one early and one late. This gives optics shooters two chances to shoot Nationals with fundamentally the same equipment. 

 

IMO either CO or LO should probably go away as they're to similar. I'd prefer CO go away as I have LO guns. But, that's me being selfish, I'll survive if LO goes away. Open minor is fine.