Ammo to practice or training class where is my $ best spent?

[nate89]

Similar to others here-if you are able to spend $3,000, I would suggest something shorter and more individual (or even private).  Even a more "regular" 2 day class with the right instructor could be much better for your overall skill improvement, and leave funds available to buy more ammo, range time, targets, etc. to engrain what you learned in the class.  For example, I took a two day class with Tim Herron several years ago, and he provided each student with very specific and actionable things we could work on to improve.  He had excellent diagnostic skills and pointed out things I was or was not doing that would have taken me a long time figure out myself.  I am certain the other instructors mentioned in this thread could provide a very similar return on investment.

 

I know of people who are perpetually going to classes, but never really get into personal practice.  They advance much slower than those who took a class, then worked like hell on what they learned on their own, or with a friend or small group.

[CHA-LEE]

Here are some things to consider.....

 

1 - We can only absorb a finite amount of training content within a single training session. The quantity of what can be effectively absorbed is WAY LESS than what many people think. When I attend classes, if I come away from it with 2 - 3 solid "Nuggets" of content that I can take home and beat up in my own practice that is a WIN. 

 

2 - Learning how to Learn is way more important than being spoon fed Training Content. Training Content will go in one year and out the other shortly after the class if you don't have a solid process defined on how to implement what was learned. If you don't know what is needed to teach yourself something, then expecting someone else to magically do it for you isn't going turn out well in the long run. Learning how to Learn is a Skill in of itself. Master it.

 

3 - Every round you shoot or dry fire rep you perform SHOULD have a measurable Success/Fail outcome. Force yourself to make every round/rep count and be of value. I see a bunch of people take classes where they shoot 1000-2000 rounds but 90% or more of that ammo was wasted because they are "Mindlessly Blasting" through the drills. Treat each round as if it cost $10. That should change your mindset on making each round "Count". Also realize that X quantity of ammo shot doesn't automatically translate to X quantity of skill or knowledge gained. There are a TON of people that shoot a lot of ammo in practice yet fail to yield long term skill improvement from that time/ammo investment. The gun going BOOM doesn't guarantee success.

 

4 - People usually undervalue Training Content or Classes vs Guns/Ammo/Gear. When I attend a match and look at my competitors. I am not worried about the dude with a $5000 gun on his hip and $500 worth of Training consumed. I am worried about the dude that has a $500 gun and has effectively invested $5000 into their Training. Its hard to beat it into peoples minds that the Shiny New gun they want isn't going to "Fix" their poor skill set. At the end of the day its the Indian getting the job done and not the Arrow.

[mrgoodwrench]

56 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Here are some things to consider.....

 

1 - We can only absorb a finite amount of training content within a single training session. The quantity of what can be effectively absorbed is WAY LESS than what many people think. When I attend classes, if I come away from it with 2 - 3 solid "Nuggets" of content that I can take home and beat up in my own practice that is a WIN. 

 

2 - Learning how to Learn is way more important than being spoon fed Training Content. Training Content will go in one year and out the other shortly after the class if you don't have a solid process defined on how to implement what was learned. If you don't know what is needed to teach yourself something, then expecting someone else to magically do it for you isn't going turn out well in the long run. Learning how to Learn is a Skill in of itself. Master it.

 

3 - Every round you shoot or dry fire rep you perform SHOULD have a measurable Success/Fail outcome. Force yourself to make every round/rep count and be of value. I see a bunch of people take classes where they shoot 1000-2000 rounds but 90% or more of that ammo was wasted because they are "Mindlessly Blasting" through the drills. Treat each round as if it cost $10. That should change your mindset on making each round "Count". Also realize that X quantity of ammo shot doesn't automatically translate to X quantity of skill or knowledge gained. There are a TON of people that shoot a lot of ammo in practice yet fail to yield long term skill improvement from that time/ammo investment. The gun going BOOM doesn't guarantee success.

 

4 - People usually undervalue Training Content or Classes vs Guns/Ammo/Gear. When I attend a match and look at my competitors. I am not worried about the dude with a $5000 gun on his hip and $500 worth of Training consumed. I am worried about the dude that has a $500 gun and has effectively invested $5000 into their Training. Its hard to beat it into peoples minds that the Shiny New gun they want isn't going to "Fix" their poor skill set. At the end of the day its the Indian getting the job done and not the Arrow.

Your spot in the flashey gun guys at the matches ive been to are rarley the best. You cant buy skill it si earned through time and practice.  

[cautery]

3 hours ago, mrgoodwrench said:

Im going to start dry firing just ordered 2 ben stoger dry fire books and begin dry firing.

You would be well-served to stay as far away from "ben stoeger" as reasonably possible.

Have you read Brian Enos's book?  If not, I HIGHLY recommend that you read it twice in the next 3 months.....

Immediately, and take notes of stuff you don't get, or you think is cool, etc, etc....

Then, read it again in 90 days IF you have studied, practiced, worked out, etc.

It will seem like a whole nuther book and you will learn so much more.

Lather, Rinse, Repeat....  every 90-180 days from now on.  You will learn something you had no idea was there EVERY time you read it.

When you are through it the FIRST time, let me know, and I will turn you on to a couple of other books that you should have/use.

Spend that $3000 wisely and manage your time/training, and you can be a Master in under 12 months....  a REAL one....  not a paper one.  It's all up to you.

[Maximis228]

27 minutes ago, cautery said:

You would be well-served to stay as far away from "ben stoeger" as reasonably possible.

I dislike Ben very much. But no one comes close to putting out the amount of free (YouTube & Social Media) or cheap (Books) content within practical shooting. His methods evolve with the sport. Yes he's mean and says bad words and many other things we can argue about... but the dude knows what he's doing and he makes shooters better VERY fast. 

 

I would look into your local heat that offers classes (Local M or GM) first. They will be able to help you get to the next level. If you put in the work and are looking for more juice to squeeze as you get up to M and GM yourself, then take classes from people like Ben, JJ, & Eric Gruffel.  No point in spending the big money until you are ready for that level of training. 

Edited March 14 by Maximis228

[shred]

This.  You can hate Ben as a dude (and there are plenty of reasons), but he's actually a good instructor in that he can see what you're doing wrong and work on fixing it.  Too many top shooters instructional techniques are "I win, I do this, now you do that too".

 

 

[MikeyScuba]

Eh.  The first class I ever attended was a Ben class.  Never again.  Too many people, Ben tends to focus on those who he thinks are worthy and we just spent most of the time blasting away on the sample stage.

 

 

[mrgoodwrench]

Well the stoeger books were reccamended and i already have them now so im going to give them a try but thanks all for the input.

[waktasz]

My advice would be to start attending matches other than your own match that you run and win. Get a feel for how the local "pros" are shooting and what you need to work on. If any of them offer some coaching on the side, book a day with them, otherwise, find a USPSA oriented instructor to get you started.  As others have said, Ben Stoeger has a bunch of media on his youtube page, some are clips of his full classes, some are just rants. Filter out the good stuff (it's very good) and avoid the range politics and his content is terrific. 

Once you know what do practice and how, dry fire 10-15 minutes a day. You don't need to spend 2 hours daily doing this. If you are gripping the gun hard and properly your hands will be sore after 15 minutes. 

 

Where are you located?

[mrgoodwrench]

4 minutes ago, waktasz said:

My advice would be to start attending matches other than your own match that you run and win. Get a feel for how the local "pros" are shooting and what you need to work on. If any of them offer some coaching on the side, book a day with them, otherwise, find a USPSA oriented instructor to get you started.  As others have said, Ben Stoeger has a bunch of media on his youtube page, some are clips of his full classes, some are just rants. Filter out the good stuff (it's very good) and avoid the range politics and his content is terrific. 

Once you know what do practice and how, dry fire 10-15 minutes a day. You don't need to spend 2 hours daily doing this. If you are gripping the gun hard and properly your hands will be sore after 15 minutes. 

 

Where are you located?

Live in zimmerman MN work in coon rapaids MN

[old558]

6 hours ago, mrgoodwrench said:

Live in zimmerman MN work in coon rapaids MN

Have you tried Forest Lake Sportsmen Club or  St Cloud Area Practical Shooters Association! Both are great Clubs and worth a look.

 

[mrgoodwrench]

12 minutes ago, old558 said:

Have you tried Forest Lake Sportsmen Club or  St Cloud Area Practical Shooters Association! Both are great Clubs and worth a look.

 

I have not but will have to check them out i know Minnetonka also has a wed night uspsa league im going to try and make that one more this year. They have some GM shooters i could probably observe and shoot with. 

[MikeyScuba]

To be honest I’ve never found watching GM’s to be helpful.   Other than they seem not to shoot as fast as one would assume.

In my case I had to learn to drop the need for the hair on fire feeling and ignore the conscious feeling of speed.  Which I guess is the same thing.

[waktasz]

It's helpful for stage planning, figuring out when to move and shoot vs when not to, activator sequences, etc. At least it was for me in the beginning....although there were almost none here when I started. I watched a lot of video then. 

[fireman1776]

On 3/14/2024 at 4:07 PM, MikeyScuba said:

Eh.  The first class I ever attended was a Ben class.  Never again.  Too many people, Ben tends to focus on those who he thinks are worthy and we just spent most of the time blasting away on the sample stage.

 

 

I can say, that's not how it is anymore. I heard negative reviews of Ben's class from someone who took it many years ago and I was hesitant to go to one because of that. I went to one recently and he has clearly changed his teaching style. Highly recommend it. 

[motosapiens]

if i lived where the op lives and had enough cash to consider spending 3k on a class, i would probably arrange to spend 8hrs with steve anderson at his range in ohio (i prefer driving over flying)and then do it again in a year.

 

i have taken classes from ben when i was first starting out, and then later from tim herron and charlie perez (cha-lee, who posted in this thread). all were very helpful, but the smaller the class is the better it is imho. trying to learn stuff with 10 other shooters is annoying.

[Part_time_redneck]

OP. If you’re still on the fence here’s a suggestion. I’ve taken Steve’s & JJ’s classes and they were both great. Different but great. As far as bang for the buck you may look into Anderson’s online Mental Management course. I took it a few years ago and doubt much has changed. It was $250 I think but well worth it. Not the hands on, gun handling type of instruction you were referring to but still, well worth the time / money investment. You may only come away with 2-3 things that really help but some of the easiest low hanging fruit to grab. Just a suggestion. 
 

Have a great day 

-PTR

[mrgoodwrench]

1 minute ago, Part_time_redneck said:

OP. If you’re still on the fence here’s a suggestion. I’ve taken Steve’s & JJ’s classes and they were both great. Different but great. As far as bang for the buck you may look into Anderson’s online Mental Management course. I took it a few years ago and doubt much has changed. It was $250 I think but well worth it. Not the hands on, gun handling type of instruction you were referring to but still, well worth the time / money investment. You may only come away with 2-3 things that really help but some of the easiest low hanging fruit to grab. Just a suggestion. 
 

Have a great day 

-PTR

Thanks for the info i will look into it. 

 

Who are steve and jj? 

[ChuckS]

34 minutes ago, mrgoodwrench said:

Thanks for the info i will look into it. 

 

Who are steve and jj? 

https://www.andersonshooting.com/

https://jjracazatraining.com/

 

[mrgoodwrench]

22 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

https://www.andersonshooting.com/

https://jjracazatraining.com/

 

Thanks 

[HesedTech]

Ammo or Class $?

 

The answer is both.

Dry Fire will improve gun handling skills, but if you throw Ms and Ds all the time it won't make you an M.

 

Every M/GM I know sent a lot of stuff down range.

 

What classes will do is answer the questions about how to practice for matches.

 

Each instructor has their own strengths, but unless one actually practices what they are taught with live and dry fire, it will only marginally improve your match day.

 

I've asked multiple National and world level GMs and they all said the same thing about ammo, you have to practice the skills with live fire, confirming what was practiced in dry. I would guess on average they went through at least 50K rounds a year, mostly in practice.

 

The question really is how big a budget of practice time are shooters willing to commit to improvement? 

 

I took Steve Anderson's Mental Management class (it was worth the money) and he starts with the idea, "what's the payoff for doing this?"

 

 

[mrgoodwrench]

19 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

Ammo or Class $?

 

The answer is both.

Dry Fire will improve gun handling skills, but if you throw Ms and Ds all the time it won't make you an M.

 

Every M/GM I know sent a lot of stuff down range.

 

What classes will do is answer the questions about how to practice for matches.

 

Each instructor has their own strengths, but unless one actually practices what they are taught with live and dry fire, it will only marginally improve your match day.

 

I've asked multiple National and world level GMs and they all said the same thing about ammo, you have to practice the skills with live fire, confirming what was practiced in dry. I would guess on average they went through at least 50K rounds a year, mostly in practice.

 

The question really is how big a budget of practice time are shooters willing to commit to improvement? 

 

I took Steve Anderson's Mental Management class (it was worth the money) and he starts with the idea, "what's the payoff for doing this?"

 

 

Thanns 

 

[pjb45]

I have taken two classes.  Both about 3 days. Both teachers were very good.

A few years later I was at Taran's range.  He said, "We got all kinds of things to fix here."

I have been a squad mom for multiple super squads. 

Every GM I have met can pick out minor things that make huge differences in your technique.

 

Nothing beats a GM who is a great teacher.  

5 days is too long.  

[mrgoodwrench]

2 minutes ago, pjb45 said:

I have taken two classes.  Both about 3 days. Both teachers were very good.

A few years later I was at Taran's range.  He said, "We got all kinds of things to fix here."

I have been a squad mom for multiple super squads. 

Every GM I have met can pick out minor things that make huge differences in your technique.

 

Nothing beats a GM who is a great teacher.  

5 days is too long.  

  good info