DA - Stage or Pull Through?

[Stafford]

For those that shoot double action for your first shot, do you stage the trigger out of the holster, or acquire the target and pull through the double action? I've posed this question to several Shadow 2 shooters and one Tanfo shooter and received a mixed bag of responses. Some shooters start staging out of the draw and are slightly farther than half cock by the time they are on target. Others just draw, point to the target and pull straight through the DA.  

[CGoodwin]

I stage, but start the trigger when both hands are on the gun and I am moving to the target.

[Zachjet]

I’ve never really thought about it. Until I seen a video, my buddy shot of me and you could see by the time I bring my gun up to my eye I am half cocked already. This was a classifier where it was a draw and shoot. 

but I guess it depends on what the stage is, if I have to draw and make a far run I don’t start on the trigger until I’m I’m on targets

[StefVanHauwe]

Based on my observations advanced competitors prep or stage their trigger in the last 10% movement of their draw. If you really know your gun and especially your trigger, and you have enough self confidence, this saves time. BTW not only for DA triggers, but also for SA triggers. 

[HesedTech]

Been shooting DA for years and with a lot of practice and experience not even a thought. Quite often the 2nd shot is the one which goes a bit astray. 
 

The answer to your question is it’s a flowing motion as the sights acquire the point of desired impact. If you wait until the sight arrives you’ve waisted time.

Edited August 29, 2023 by HesedTech

[MHicks]

Depending on the stage you can usually draw first to a wide open target without no shoots or other tighter shots. It's unusual to face the tightest target on a stage on the draw. 

[broadside72]

With a good trigger I don't even notice the DA 99% of the time as the targets are not super difficult where it would matter. If first shot is a long one to a partial/NS or mini popper I will stage and try to make the break clean, otherwise squeeze then gun then pull the trigger fast and I don't even notice the DA vs SA.

[konkapot]

Back in the day I carried a Beretta 96D for work; for tough shots I would stage, and usually taught struggling/smaller handed shooters to stage. 

 

With nicer double actions I would pull all the way through. 

 

I think it truly depends; probably one of those things where people would argue something when there's no appreciable difference. 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, MHicks said:

Depending on the stage you can usually draw first to a wide open target without no shoots or other tighter shots. It's unusual to face the tightest target on a stage on the draw. 

? many good shooters (and also me) often prefer to draw to a harder target rather than transition to that target, but it very much depends on whether you have to move to see the target, and what you are doing next.

 

for the op, i just practice shooting quickly and accurately and don't think about the trigger pull. I'm definitely not pulling it before the gun is up and pointed towards the target, but i am probably starting to pull it slightly before i'm really aware of the dot, depending on the difficulty.

[Stafford]

OP here.... a couple of things that I've thought about. Recently, I've been drawing and attempting to stage the trigger in dry fire on my first shot. But because I can pull through the DA for the remainder of my targets in dry fire, I tend to pull through or slap the trigger. Basically staging and then practicing with a trigger pull that is counter to the staging. As a result, I end up practicing the pull through more except for when I only practice the draw and stage. 

 

Also, my hammer spring is pretty light (10lbs) which allows for a smoother and lighter DA pull. Yesterday, I swapped for a 13lb hammer spring which increased the pull weight. However, it is now much more predictable when attempting to stage the heavier trigger.

[MHicks]

41 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

? many good shooters (and also me) often prefer to draw to a harder target rather than transition to that target, but it very much depends on whether you have to move to see the target, and what you are doing next.

 

for the op, i just practice shooting quickly and accurately and don't think about the trigger pull. I'm definitely not pulling it before the gun is up and pointed towards the target, but i am probably starting to pull it slightly before i'm really aware of the dot, depending on the difficulty.

That make sense. But for those shooters who are not as confident or experienced shooting that first double action shot usually there is an easier target to start with. For better shooters the first DA shot isn't hard.

[motosapiens]

8 minutes ago, MHicks said:

That make sense. But for those shooters who are not as confident or experienced shooting that first double action shot usually there is an easier target to start with. For better shooters the first DA shot isn't hard.

good point. 

[season94]

I use the pull through method. Also, it is the universally the accepted method.. I'll recommend Eearnest Langdon videos, this will throw more light on how to do it right.

[dsmarty386]

i found that trigger control at speed (ben stoeger drill) was best for getting better at the double action pull.

 

set your timer beep to random. start with gun on target witha  good grip and trigger finger in the trigger housing but OFF (or forward of) the trigger shoe. at the beep pull the trigger. dont do it slow, do it as fast as you can. try to get the trigger pull done before the beep tone finishes.

 

your sights will go all crazy at first but keep doing it. you will start to correct the pull, your grip, etc so that the gun doesnt move.

 

before too long, you will develop a fast DA pull that doesnt cause a sight disturbance.

 

imo dont worry about all these detailed DA pull mechanics. you need to be able to keep the gun on target when slapping the s#!t out of the trigger. when you tense up in a match, you end up slapping anyway. 

 

practice this regularly in dryfire and DA pull will not even be something you think about at a match. 

 

its a little crazy to me to adjust a stage plan based on a trigger pull

[IHAVEGAS]

Angus Hobdell wrote somewhere that some competitors think he is crazy because he shoots the first shot double action when the rules allow him to use the safety instead. For commonly tuned double action trigger pull weights (5 lb +- 1/2lb) I just don't think about it unless it is a fairly hard shot like a 20 yd mini popper, for the fairly hard first shot I'm putting a little extra focus on grip and trigger control regardless. 

When trigger pull weights get into the 6 pound and above range my shooting suffers. I think a fun way to get used to d.a. is to shoot your revolver of choice at steel challenge matches.

[Duck_Duckalo]

Staging has helped me. I stage as I present.

[MHicks]

The legality of starting cocked and locked vs hammer down depends on what division a shooter is in.   Some shooters that have shot da/sa guns in production/ carry optics for a long time may continue to shoot that way in LO, for example, even though they could start single action with the safety engaged.

[ColoradoNick]

When I was a newer shooter I would purposefully shoot an open or “easier” target first, and avoid a first shot on steel like the plague. I was terrified of pulling a DA shot. Shoot your gun enough and it won’t matter. IMO trying to prep the trigger is not the way. 

[CraigS]

If prep means an actual stop of trigger movement I don't prep the DA pull . What I do is vary the trigger pull speed. The trigger pull starts maybe 2/3-3/4 of the way from holster to sights on target. On a close target the shot fires right as the sights line up on the target. On a further away or smaller target, the pull is slower so there are a few tenths of a second w/ the sights lined up allowing me to more accurately place the sights. I agree w/ coloradonick that prepping (stopping then restarting trigger movement) is not the way. My reason is stiction. Let's say you stop at 75% of trigger travel. Then start again. Unless the trigger is absolutely smooth, the amount of effort needed to start the trigger moving again, is going to be higher than the effort to move it through that 75% spot w/ continuous movement. Search youtube for Langdon's 3 parts series 'Fear not the DA Shot'.

[IVC]

Staging and pull-through are two different techniques and are used in different scenarios. 

 

For most shooting, pull-through is the "correct way." Not because staging is inherently incorrect, but because pull-through is both faster and more universal. However, for bullseye shooting or when you need very high accuracy, staging is the way to go. In staging you stop at the wall and execute a trigger *press* instead of the traditional dynamic *pull*, which is the usual high precision technique. 

 

As for starting the trigger pull before the gun is on target, that's not staging. That's how you're supposed to work a long DA trigger, e.g., when shooting a revolver. The pull starts before the gun is ready and is synchronized with the gun getting on target. If you get to the wall only to pull the trigger fast through the wall, you should be using pull-through instead and not introduce the unnecessary and complicating delays of the staging. If you just feel like prepping the trigger before it's on target, just do the pull-through and learn to have the patience to wait until the shot fires. 

 

With DA triggers, the trick is not the front-end speed, where the gun gets on target, the trick is the back-end speed, where you wait for the shot to fire before moving on. If you're used to the cues such as "it's on target, fire now" as a way to call a shot, you'll have to correct it and simply say "it's on target, keep it there until it fires." Pulling a DA shot is rarely about the sights or the movement of the gun through the pull, it's almost always calling the shoot too soon and starting to move the gun out before it fired. 

[lgh]

23 hours ago, IVC said:

As for starting the trigger pull before the gun is on target, that's not staging. That's how you're supposed to work a long DA trigger, e.g., when shooting a revolver.

Clear violation of rule 3.

 

Rob Leatham said than when someone is shooting really fast they are actually slapping the trigger. I took that to mean he saw little difference between fast press and slapping.

[IVC]

8 hours ago, lgh said:

Clear violation of rule 3.

As much as keeping finger on the trigger while transitioning between targets in an array is a violation of rule 3, or keeping the gun at the eye level during wide transitions or when running is a violation of rule 2. It's not. 

[lgh]

14 hours ago, IVC said:

As much as keeping finger on the trigger while transitioning between targets in an array is a violation of rule 3, or keeping the gun at the eye level during wide transitions or when running is a violation of rule 2. It's not. 

Some gamers have their own rules.

[IVC]

3 hours ago, lgh said:

Some gamers have their own rules.

Some posters don't complete their                                    [this space intentionally left blank]

[maur]

I dont put my finger on the trigger until my gun is at least pointed downrange and im pushing out. I've dq'd before from an early discharge and had to retrain myself that way. Prepping the trigger as youre drawing seems a little on the line, even if others do it.