Unusual case bulge with certain headstamps

[abigger04]

Out of one of my buckets of range brass I’ve been noticing that about 10% are not passing the hundo case gauge. 

The headstamps which aren’t passing the gauge are “A USA” and “Aguila” 

 

load is 147 grain PD at 1.1” which is my go to for 9mm. 
 

Is this just a characteristic with this brass headstamp? Or is this an indicator of something being out of order with my Dillon 1050XL?

 

For what it’s worth they still run in my JP5 but my Glock won’t tolerate them. 

[shred]

Maybe a stepped case?  Pull one of the bullets and have a look in there.

 

[Dirty_J]

More importantly… what’s up with that crimp?  

[Farmer]

11 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

More importantly… what’s up with that crimp?  

2X

[abigger04]

1 hour ago, Dirty_J said:

More importantly… what’s up with that crimp?  

Thats what I was wondering — have I crimped too much?

[perttime]

The crimp does look pretty severe.

What kind of a crimp die are you using?

[abigger04]

2 minutes ago, perttime said:

The crimp does look pretty severe.

What kind of a crimp die are you using?

Lee FCD

[dansedgli]

load longer or sort your brass. 

Some brass gets thicker than others as it tapers down which makes it unsuitable for heavy bullets.

 

 

[PhotoRecon]

For 9mm crimp I use the Dillon taper crimp die and set it to .377" at the tip of the case mouth. More like returning the brass to spec than crimping.

 

We see lots of brass left at the range that was fired in over sized chambers. Regular sizing dies won't size far enough down to correct it. Roll sizing will.

[HesedTech]

9 hours ago, abigger04 said:

Is this just a characteristic with this brass headstamp?

What’s happening is normal because some brass has walls which taper/thicken quicker as the bullet approaches the base. The PD 147s FMJs have a rather thick jacket and don’t compress as easily as other brands. Now combine with the depth of seating needed for the 147s, quick tapered brass and here comes the bulge. 

The solution is change brand of bullets, sort head stamps, make sure bullets are seating straight (a crooked bullet will/can cause side bulging) and stop using the Lee FCD. 
 

If you sized and belled correctly you don’t need the FCD, only a taper crimp to remove bell. The FCD has a sizing ring at the opening which does more damage than it helps. 
 

Roll sizing helps (I roll size everything before decapping and sizing) but will not fix this issue. It only resizes base damaged by less supported chambers. 
 

Here’s the dies which work well for me:

Dillon, Redding Pro, or Lee U 9mm sizing dies.

Hornady bullet seating die with micro adjuster.

Dillon or Lee taper crimp dies. 
 

Bell with MBF or similar powder funnel.

PS. I used to load the PD 147 FMJ (about 20k) but switched to coated 147 RNFP because of this very issue. I hate sorting head stamps when dealing with loading about 40k a year. 

[abigger04]

4 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

What’s happening is normal because some brass has walls which taper/thicken quicker as the bullet approaches the base. The PD 147s FMJs have a rather thick jacket and don’t compress as easily as other brands. Now combine with the depth of seating needed for the 147s, quick tapered brass and here comes the bulge. 

The solution is change brand of bullets, sort head stamps, make sure bullets are seating straight (a crooked bullet will/can cause side bulging) and stop using the Lee FCD. 
 

If you sized and belled correctly you don’t need the FCD, only a taper crimp to remove bell. The FCD has a sizing ring at the opening which does more damage than it helps. 
 

Roll sizing helps (I roll size everything before decapping and sizing) but will not fix this issue. It only resizes base damaged by less supported chambers. 
 

Here’s the dies which work well for me:

Dillon, Redding Pro, or Lee U 9mm sizing dies.

Hornady bullet seating die with micro adjuster.

Dillon or Lee taper crimp dies. 
 

Bell with MBF or similar powder funnel.

PS. I used to load the PD 147 FMJ (about 20k) but switched to coated 147 RNFP because of this very issue. I hate sorting head stamps when dealing with loading about 40k a year. 

Thank you. That’s very helpful. 

[shred]

Excess crimp is rarely a significant problem, but you don't need that much.  .377" will be fine.  SAAMI spec says anywhere between .380" and .373" exactly at the case mouth. 

 

With case taper and used brass, it's a bit tricky to measure exactly, but you don't really need to.  Iron out the flare, look at it through a 10x loupe and if there's not a big gap between brass and bullet or brass smashed into the bullet and it passes chamber plunk checks, good to go.

 

FWIW I've used the Lee FCD and it works well enough to win a few majors, but you don't need it if you don't have it.

 

 

 

[HesedTech]

36 minutes ago, shred said:

I've used the Lee FCD and it works well enough to win a few majors

Come on now, let's be honest the Lee FCD will not help anyone win a major, let alone a local match. That comes from practice and paying attention to detail.

 

What the Lee FCD will do is screw up the reloading process for someone who doesn't understand what it actually does.

It is much simpler to recommend and use a tapered crimp die, but I'm happy for those who work out a process that works using the FCD. And yes I have one in my pile of dies, just found a better way/die combo to reload 9mm that works.

[abigger04]

7 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

Come on now, let's be honest the Lee FCD will not help anyone win a major, let alone a local match. That comes from practice and paying attention to detail.

 

What the Lee FCD will do is screw up the reloading process for someone who doesn't understand what it actually does.

It is much simpler to recommend and use a tapered crimp die, but I'm happy for those who work out a process that works using the FCD. And yes I have one in my pile of dies, just found a better way/die combo to reload 9mm that works.

so, help me out here - why does the FCD screw up the reloading process?

 

 

[4n2t0]

12 hours ago, abigger04 said:

load is 147 grain PD at 1.1” which is my go to for 9mm. 

 

Pretty much everything has been covered but I will ask if 1.1 is the longest you can load for your barrel(s)/bullet combo? If you can load a little longer it might help a little. 

[4n2t0]

16 minutes ago, abigger04 said:

so, help me out here - why does the FCD screw up the reloading process?

 

I'm going to attempt to read minds...

 

I'll give it a shot since I don't believe in the FCD either...

 

What a FCD does it swage the entire cartridge, including the bullet, to make/force the ammo to pass while potentially masking other issues. It can also possibly affect bullet retention and unseal your crimp allowing gas to pass. 

 

BEFORE I GET FLAMMED: WITH ALL THAT SAID, MANY, MANY, MANY SHOOTERS EMPLOY THEM SUCESSFULLY.

 

Between my crystal ball, tarot cards, and tea leaves I must have gotten something right!

 

Cheers!

Edited June 6, 2023 by 4n2t0

[HesedTech]

1 hour ago, abigger04 said:

so, help me out here - why does the FCD screw up the reloading process?

 

 

"Lee 9mm Luger Carbide Factory Crimp Die sizes the cartridge while being crimped so every round will positively chamber freely with factory like dependability" https://leeprecision.com/handgun-carbide-factory-crimp-die

 

You will notice the sizing ring at the mouth of the die. This resizes the cartridge, including any bulges due to the bullet insertion and thus will, not might, swage/resize the bullet as it moves down the cartridge. Since brass has the ability to spring back and lead does not, what happens is the bullets, especially coated and plated, are now smaller and the brass often springs back. 

 

This causes two issues the first being the bullet diameter is no long what one expected when reloaded and second the brass spring back can cause set back and loose bullet issues. I have literally seen bullets fall out after reloading because of the FCD.

 

Accuracy is also affected because the reloader expects a certain diameter of bullet and now it is smaller, often being undersized for the barrel. This can translate into bullets tumbling with the associated lack of accuracy.

 

So what does the FCD do? It "fixes" bulges do to loading processes, combos of brass, bullet diameter, inaccurate seating  and similar things.

 

Hopes this long answer explains it.

 

[abigger04]

9 hours ago, 4n2t0 said:

 

Pretty much everything has been covered but I will ask if 1.1 is the longest you can load for your barrel(s)/bullet combo? If you can load a little longer it might help a little. 

I shoot CZs so they generally don't want to tolerate more than 1.1

[Nathanb]

Aguilar don’t like 147s seated deep. I had so many failures that I knew it would be an aguila as soon  as it came back out the gauge. 124s are fine

[nkresho]

I wouldn't ignore the seater die either.  I had that issue from time to time when loading RMR HMW 147s at 1.080-1.090.  I was using the hornady seater (non micrometer).  I found that the bullet was seating somewhat crooked and most of the bulges were more pronounced on one side rather than completely symmetrical.

 

I've also been using the hornady flare with their powder drop, so the bullet was pre-seated every time before and after changing the seater.

 

I switched to the redding competition seater (with the spring removed) and have not had a single instance of that type of bulge since.

 

It's about $100, but totally worth it IMHO. 

Edited June 7, 2023 by nkresho

[stick]

Why so much hate for the FCD?  I've been successfully using one for years.  I think his issue lies with incorrect setup of his other dies.  I don't have extensive knowledge of the 1050.  I run a XL650.  I would start with his bullet feeder and check and measure the bell on the brass.  You only need to bell the brass enough to hold the bullet.  I can't recall my numbers and I'm too lazy to go look them up, but my bullets barely sit on top of the case.  From there, they get seated.  Granted I'm primarily using 124gr plated bullets, but it was the same when I was using 147gr bullets.  My FCD die is last and you can hardly tell it's doing anything if it was the only case on the shell plate.  I would check the bell and definitely reinstall the FCD.

[mmc45414]

I use the Lee taper crimp die in the progressive, and I have a FCD in a single stage that I use on all of the rounds the gage didn't like.  This way the FCD is not potentially masking any other issues, but I still have the failed rounds to segregate and plink with.

Also, when I had one in the press seems like it created drag as the cartridges withdrew.  NBD, just not as smooth.

[HesedTech]

6 hours ago, stick said:

Why so much hate for the FCD? 

It's not hate, it's because the FCD is not needed and if used with a combination of certain bullets and brass causes far more issues than it helps. The  poster who uses it only to fix the failed rounds is on the right track for its use.

 

 

[Sandbagger123]

what sizing die are you using? looking at the pix of the round  it looks like its not sizing all the way down.   my opinion on the FCD is its fine for FMJ , but not so much for coated .  i replaced mine with a lee taper crimp die and all types of bullets have no issue.

 

Also, those rounds that do not case gauge , will they drop in and out of the chamber of the gun you intend to use them ? if they do, jsut shoot them 

[abigger04]

3 hours ago, Sandbagger123 said:

what sizing die are you using? looking at the pix of the round  it looks like its not sizing all the way down.   my opinion on the FCD is its fine for FMJ , but not so much for coated .  i replaced mine with a lee taper crimp die and all types of bullets have no issue.

 

Also, those rounds that do not case gauge , will they drop in and out of the chamber of the gun you intend to use them ? if they do, jsut shoot them 

I'm using a Dillon sizing die.  It appears to be set up correctly.  I may swap out this Lee FCD based on what I'm reading here though.  I have a U die in storage that I could use.

 

My JP5 will feed anything it seems -- even these out of spec Aguila reloads