Limited optics strong early showing

[shred]

2 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

Bottom line is, given a the choice, most would prefer to shoot a 2011.  You have better function with the SAO trigger (although not necessarily a performance advantage), better durability and reliability, familiarity with the platform for many/most, and many more options for parts and customization.

Yeah, there's a reason Open and Limited are dominated by 2011s in the US and it's not because they're mandatory.

 

Even after Eric crushed everybody repeatedly at Nationals and Worlds with an Open Tanfo, few people shot them.

 

[whan]

One point that hasn't been mentioned is the relative reliability and maintenance upkeep of 2011s vs. a CZ based platform (excluding Open which is its own separate thing).

 

I shot single stack minor for 2.5 years before switching to CO and landing on a Tanfo. One of the key reasons I'd be hesitant to switch to LO using a 2011 now is the lower reliability of the 2011/1911 platform. I seem to see far more 2011s choke or have issues, both pre-LO and now with provisional LO vs. people shooting CZ platforms. While I agree I'd likely shoot a 2011 that 5% better than my tanfo, I'm actually not sure if it's worth the relative tradeoff in reliability if it means the increased possibility of having a bad malfunction that would drop a stage much more than that. I also feel more comfortable with extended cleaning intervals on my Tanfo vs. my 1911, especially shooting 9mm, which is just nice overall not worrying too much about cleaning before local matches

[CC3D]

18 minutes ago, whan said:

One point that hasn't been mentioned is the relative reliability and maintenance upkeep of 2011s vs. a CZ based platform (excluding Open which is its own separate thing).

 

I shot single stack minor for 2.5 years before switching to CO and landing on a Tanfo. One of the key reasons I'd be hesitant to switch to LO using a 2011 now is the lower reliability of the 2011/1911 platform. I seem to see far more 2011s choke or have issues, both pre-LO and now with provisional LO vs. people shooting CZ platforms. While I agree I'd likely shoot a 2011 that 5% better than my tanfo, I'm actually not sure if it's worth the relative tradeoff in reliability if it means the increased possibility of having a bad malfunction that would drop a stage much more than that. I also feel more comfortable with extended cleaning intervals on my Tanfo vs. my 1911, especially shooting 9mm, which is just nice overall not worrying too much about cleaning before local matches

Valid point and all the more reason why a lot of guys will likely end up just shooting their CO gear in LO plus a magwell etc. 

 

That said though, the 2011 reliability thing in my experience has been exclusive to open guns- I've seen far more heavily modified CZ's and Glock's failing than I have 2011's. Obviously more people are running those guns than 2011's currently so that may be reason for my observations 

[Racinready300ex]

3 hours ago, CC3D said:

It's not a hindrance- it's an annoyance. Having to go hammer down *before a stage in a competition*

 

Odd flex but okay lol

 

The other 45 seconds of the MR is way more annoying to me then the part where you put the hammer down. And there's a simple solution, shoot a striker gun or shoot LO. 

 

With the current CO rules being basically anything goes and we have 2 lbs SAO steel framed striker guns, the age of DA/SA is coming to a end naturally anyway. We don't really need to do anything but wait. 

[ltdmstr]

40 minutes ago, whan said:

One of the key reasons I'd be hesitant to switch to LO using a 2011 now is the lower reliability of the 2011/1911 platform. I seem to see far more 2011s choke or have issues, both pre-LO and now with provisional LO vs. people shooting CZ platforms. While I agree I'd likely shoot a 2011 that 5% better than my tanfo, I'm actually not sure if it's worth the relative tradeoff in reliability if it means the increased possibility of having a bad malfunction that would drop a stage much more than that. I also feel more comfortable with extended cleaning intervals on my Tanfo vs. my 1911, especially shooting 9mm, which is just nice overall not worrying too much about cleaning before local matches

 

I really don't understand this comment.  I have a bunch of 1911s/2011s in 9, 40 and 45, and all are 100% reliable without fail.  The current gun I'm shooting is a SV Limited gun with 100k+ rounds of major pf ammo through it.  So, maybe you need to find a different gunsmith or something because reliability should not be an issue with any quality 1911/2011.  And certainly not anything CZs that constantly break slide stops, etc.

[whan]

15 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

I really don't understand this comment.  I have a bunch of 1911s/2011s in 9, 40 and 45, and all are 100% reliable without fail.  The current gun I'm shooting is a SV Limited gun with 100k+ rounds of major pf ammo through it.  So, maybe you need to find a different gunsmith or something because reliability should not be an issue with any quality 1911/2011.  And certainly not anything CZs that constantly break slide stops, etc.

 

I started with a modified Colt for a year and then shot an SV single stack 9mm for another 1.5 that I specced brand new. The Colt had some issues, and the SV ran well but I could tell there was still a lot less room for error vs. other platforms. Both were picky on bullet profile (for example didn't like syntech 150gr due to flat nose). Still had a handful of FTFs from slidelock reloads from not fully chambering. During a match with cold weather in the 40s, the SV wasn't forgiving of the thicker blue oil provided by infinity and malfunctioned until I cleaned it out during the match and replaced it with a light oil

 

Yes, these are all things that I can iron out by keeping the gun clean, choosing the right ammo and oils, etc. and indeed my SV ran quite well, but it still was noticeably more finnicky than other platforms. And that excludes some other one-off issues I have had (firing pin hole drilled crooked from factory in the Colt GCNM which had to get fixed when I sent it to be customized, broke an ejector on a slidelock reload, cracked infinity extractor)

 

From observing others, excluding Open guns, I still have seen multiple people's 2011s from top builders have issues during matches. This includes someone's new Atlas on my squad this past weekend, and another's Infinity a few months ago (on a HHF classifier that that). At our CCW outlaw match last month, someone brought a Staccato C2 which I also remembering having a FTF during a stage as well. 

 

My experience has been that 1911s/2011s are just a lot more finnicky and less forgiving overall. You can definitely get them to run 100% but it also seems there's a lot more to worry / think about and a higher probability of having a gun that doesn't work 100%.

[Boomstick303]

I find it rather interesting the same people have issues with any gun.  2011, striker fired, PCC.  Is it the equipment or the person running the equipment?  I have just started learning about the function of 2011s.  I have a lot to learn and that will come with time and experience.  I did reach out to very knowledgeable people with many 2011s who knew what he was doing before I purchased a 2011 to understand what to watch for and how to keep it running before I bought one.  If I see something I don't understand I learn about it instantly and fix it.  How many people are actually engaged with any piece of equipment they own let alone their guns?

 

A 2011 has tight tolerances.  That is the design of the gun.  In essence it is a race machine.  Is a formula 1 car not finicky?  Is a stock car to a lesser degree not finicky?  Race equipment requires special fuel, tires, setup, etc.  This is no different for a Race gun of any type.   People that do not understand this and do not learn about their equipment will pay the price in reliable performance.  

 

If people don't want to worry about their gun running buy a striker fire gun, do not modify it, and change the springs once a year along with the other consumables on the gun at the intervals the manufacturer indicates when to replace them, the gun will run almost forever.  

 

If you want to run  a race gun that requires some effort by the operator.  In our section I have observed numerous guys shooting their open guns for years and when it malfunctions have no idea how to diagnose and/or fix the problem.  That's not the gun's fault.  The other issue is how many people get the d!(k skinners on the gun and change something before they even shoot it?  That is hardly the gun manufacturer's fault people do not know how to work on their stuff.  Hell how many 2011 owner's cannot even adjust their extractor?  

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Boomstick303

[ColoradoNick]

4 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

Bottom line is, given a choice, most would prefer to shoot a 2011.  You have better function with the SAO trigger (although not necessarily a performance advantage), better durability and reliability, familiarity with the platform for many/most, and many more options for parts and customization.

 

I've shot about 50 rounds through a prodigy, and the same through a staccato P. Compare that to 9-10,000 through a couple Shadow 2's. Whatever someone is comfortable with is what most people would prefer. I know a handful of guys that only shoot Glocks so I'm sure that would be their preference. Or Sig... I don't know many people who DON'T shoot (bought) what gun they prefer regardless of what category it fits into in something like USPSA. 

 

Personally, I even own a full size DWX and greatly prefer my Shadow's because it's what I'm familiar with. If I put the time in maybe I would like the DWX more? I don't see why though... Maybe next year I'll give it a try. The Staccato and Prodigy both felt top heavy and the DWX feels slide heavy. As far as parts and customization I don't think the aftermarket for Shadow 2's is lacking. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by ColoradoNick

[whan]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

I find it rather interesting the same people have issues with any gun.  2011, striker fired, PCC.  Is it the equipment or the person running the equipment?  I have just started learning about the function of 2011s.  I have a lot to learn and that will come with time and experience.  I did reach out to very knowledgeable people with many 2011s who knew what he was doing before I purchased a 2011 to understand what to watch for and how to keep it running before I bought one.  If I see something I don't understand I learn about it instantly and fix it.  How many people are actually engaged with any piece of equipment they own let alone their guns?

 

A 2011 has tight tolerances.  That is the design of the gun.  In essence it is a race machine.  Is a formula 1 car not finicky?  Is a stock car to a lesser degree not finicky?  Race equipment requires special fuel, tires, setup, etc.  This is no different for a Race gun of any type.   People that do not understand this and do not learn about their equipment will pay the price in reliable performance.  

 

If people don't want to worry about their gun running buy a striker fire gun, do not modify it, and change the springs once a year along with the other consumables on the gun at the intervals the manufacturer indicates when to replace them, the gun will run almost forever.  

 

If you want to run  a race gun that requires some effort by the operator.  In our section I have observed numerous guys shooting their open guns for years and when it malfunctions have no idea how to diagnose and/or fix the problem.  That's not the gun's fault.  The other issue is how many people get the d!(k skinners on the gun and change something before they even shoot it?  That is hardly the gun manufacturer's fault people do not know how to work on their stuff.  Hell how many 2011 owner's cannot even adjust their extractor?  

 

 

 

 

I agree to a certain extent - there is a skew towards newbies having issues across platform due to a lack of knowledge (in general across different guns). But the 2011/1911 platform IMO still have a higher chance of occasional issues, even for experienced operators. For example, the Staccato C2 malfunction I saw was the carry gun of a guy who is an experienced M class Open Shooter. The guy who had the SVI 2011 malfunction also came up in SS with me, and has 10s of thousands of rounds through various 1911s from different manufacturers. You can't tell me that those issues were due to their lack of understanding of the platform.

 

I love 1911s, probably 50% of all pistols I've ever owned have been of the 1911/2011 platform (Les Baer 45, STI DVC 3gun, Infinity Commander 2011, Colt GCNM 9mm, Infinity 1911). I chose to spend my first 2.5 years in USPSA in single stack, a relatively dead division, just because I liked the guns. I've adjusted my own extractors, replaced my own ejector, fiddled around with various springs, diagnosed mag issues during this time.

 

But it's left me wondering if the juice is really worth the squeeze. There's just less issues and things to take care of with other platforms. Fact is that to be comfortable with a 2011, I'd have to be cleaning it 2-3x as frequently, probably cleaning out mags and worrying about feed lips, etc. At this point, I'd rather have a platform that I shoot well and that I don't have to worry about as much. Hell, Tanfo Timmy just made GM in LO with his Tanfo running fully in CO guise (hammer down start too), so I know the gun isn't holding me back much

 

Again, everyone can make their own decisions, and I get why people shoot 2011s for the performance advantage, just that for me I don't know if that advantage is really worth it anymore

Edited May 25, 2023 by whan

[RJH]

In  going to matches for years, and working matches, the least reliable gun I've seen by far is the sig 320 series. I know they win championships, but I've seen so many of them choke it would be the last gun I would buy. Obviously I don't know everything ever done to them, but I have seen factory ones with factory ammo not work, which is odd for a modern plastic gun

 

 

I think basically any gun can be competitive in limited optics though. Whether it's a 2011, a dasa gun being shot either in dasa or Sao, or some plastic fantastic.

[shred]

4 hours ago, RJH said:

I think basically any gun can be competitive in limited optics though. Whether it's a 2011, a dasa gun being shot either in dasa or Sao, or some plastic fantastic.

I think this is largely true, but I also think the division will slowly gravitate to custom 2011s because that's what all the other divisions that allow them do.  People will do fine with other makes but they'll be the outliers.

[GJM]

It is hard to discuss pistols and not magazines. MecGar CZ, MecGar 320 and Glock magazines strike me as more reliable than 2011 mags with 9mm ammo.

[RJH]

21 minutes ago, GJM said:

It is hard to discuss pistols and not magazines. MecGar CZ, MecGar 320 and Glock magazines strike me as more reliable than 2011 mags with 9mm ammo.

 

But now there are guns like the platypus that's a 2011 that uses Glock mags. I think there's also another one coming out that's basically a 2011 that uses M&P mags. And you have the dan wesson dwx that uses CZ mags and is kind of a 2011 hybrid. So mags should not be an issue anymore, assuming they ever were

[RJH]

47 minutes ago, shred said:

I think this is largely true, but I also think the division will slowly gravitate to custom 2011s because that's what all the other divisions that allow them do.  People will do fine with other makes but they'll be the outliers.

 

Probably, but since it's minor only, I think it will be 2011 because people want it to be not because they feel they have to be. People just like to shoot 1911s and 2011's, it's nice to have a division where you're not forced to shoot a gun you don't like and are not at a scoring disadvantage.

[Boomstick303]

6 hours ago, whan said:

just that for me I don't know if that advantage is really worth it anymore

 

I don’t think anyone on hear thinks that there is that distinct of an advantage using a 2011 today. Anyone can compete at a high level with most semi auto pistols if they put in the work. The point I and others have brought up is any gun can be unreliable. It’s up to the user to maintain their equipment and make it run.  Does a 2011 require more maintenance to run it?  Of course it does.  That is not the point. The point is a gun is only as reliable as the person maintaining the equipment. I know fully well I have to do more to keep a 2011 running without malfunctions. I do so because I love the platform,   not because I feel compelled to because it’s what is required to compete at a high level. I have seen all kinds of guns fail. It’s typically not the guns fault. 

[BritinUSA]

I think the only issues I suffered with 2011's were due to the magazines. There is something 'off' with the design.

[Gunner66]

I think that once you see more and more top shooters in major matches competing in LO that more and more A Class/M Class shooter will want to jump into LO.  "if you build it they will come"  The industry is already well out in from of equipment with SA optic ready and adding a magwell on your CO Canik/Glock/CZ....and there you have it.

 

[Racinready300ex]

7 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

I think the only issues I suffered with 2011's were due to the magazines. There is something 'off' with the design.

 

The newer mags are much better. These days I don't tune mags or any of that nonsense I just put them in the gun and they work. Atlas and MBX are ready to go out of the box, staccato you need to add springs, followers and a proper base pad to be the max capacity still. Then they're basically all equal. Depending on your exact setup they should be 23 or 24 +1 starts. 23 reloadable for sure. 

 

My 1911's and 2011's were all great, but do need a little more care than a typical striker gun. Unless said striker gun is heavily modified in which case the 2011 might be more reliable with less maintenance lol.

[barry]

All my 2011mags are old. Newest is 10 years old rest at least 25 years old. Don't even know what tuning is. Change springs every 2 or so years maybe. All run fine but I do still shoot 38 super.yes a dinosaur still walks among you.

[Racinready300ex]

17 minutes ago, barry said:

All my 2011mags are old. Newest is 10 years old rest at least 25 years old. Don't even know what tuning is. Change springs every 2 or so years maybe. All run fine but I do still shoot 38 super.yes a dinosaur still walks among you.

 

I think it was somewhat gun dependent. A good gun wasn't picky about mags or even OAL. Other 2011's seemed to need tuned mags and to be loaded really long or they didn't work. There are tons of old threads here about tuning mags I'm sure.

 

I ran gen 1 mags in my limited gun for a long time with no tuning and I didn't need to load long. It just ate everything. You want to talk old skool and sketchy mags, I have a Caspian open gun from the 90's. Now that's picky AF about everything lol.  

[barry]

Just cut up and disposed of my old Caspian framed open gun a year or so ago. Gave all old magazines and platform specific parts to a gm that was building a New gun. He likes the feel. Never had problems with mags,even silversoldered together 170mm.

[barry]

If frame mtd. Optics were allowed in ltd Optics I could cut the comp off one of my oldest open gun and give it new life.

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, barry said:

Just cut up and disposed of my old Caspian framed open gun a year or so ago. Gave all old magazines and platform specific parts to a gm that was building a New gun. He likes the feel. Never had problems with mags,even silversoldered together 170mm.

 

Mine is pretty picky, especially with the 170's. but I also don't really shoot it at all so I'm not worried about working out the kinks. This is one of the earlier ones that tended to crack the frame and I don't really want to kill it. I mainly have it for sentimental reasons. 

[rishii]

My caspians feed empty brass with the 1st gen nickel plated mags and they’ve outlived 2 open guns in both supercomp and 9. I have a few that have been in continuous use since the early 90’s, they look like crap  but still but still run.

[Sarge]

Our local match this coming Sunday

Division
Limited	13
Limited 10	0
Open	9
Production	5
Revolver	0
Single Stack	3
Carry Optics	32
Pcc	6
Limited Optics	7