Limited optics Vs Open

[Boomstick303]

Comical.

 

Not sure how not wanting to invest in a dying caliber as being scared of doing anything, but to each their own I guess.  

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Boomstick303

[Boomstick303]

Just now, motosapiens said:

I hear this alot, but at my club, most people shoot at least level 2 matches, and large numbers travel to area matches.

 

I imagine this will vary from area to area as well.  A large number does not indicate percentages of shooter in your Section/Area.  I can say a very low percentage of our section and the section on the other end of the state do travel to Level 2 and up matches.  I am talking the overall membership.  Not in specific areas.  It would be an interesting research project to understand exactly what the percentages are.  Think about the numbers alone on the National Event Level.  Lets us say 400 shooters for 4 events.  1600 shooters of a 37,000 membership.  How many of those people attend more than 1 of those events, and they are most likely the majority of shooters attending Level 2 matches.  That math alone comes out to less than 5%, so most likely that number is less than 10% and that is probably being generous.   

 

When I go to Nationals it tends to be the same shooters from Nationals to Nationals.  Yes there are fringe numbers that cycle in and out depending on the Nationals and the location.  Level 2 participation numbers seem to be more regional unless it is some sort of Epic match that is Nationally known.  At least those are my observations.  Again, a small part of the membership could care less what Nils is doing or what he is shooting was my original point.

 

 

[mreed911]

50 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

exactly. LO is for people that suck at DA triggers, and are scared of major.

 

Which division allows for a slide-mounted optic and has major scoring?  Did I miss one?

Which mass market 2011 vendor makes a 9mm major, .40 or .45 2011?

Edited May 10, 2023 by mreed911

[mreed911]

Benos went full-auto.

Edited May 10, 2023 by mreed911

[Boomstick303]

4 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

Which mass market 2011 vendor makes a 9mm major, .40 or .45 2011?

 

Or as slide ride options?  

 

Who cares what you the market or the masses think, it makes you scared to NOT shoot dying calibers.  

 

Everyone should invest in and shoot dying calibers because others are so already heavily invested in them. 

 

 

[zzt]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

I hear this alot, but at my club, most people shoot at least level 2 matches, and large numbers travel to area matches.

 

Ditto.  My favorite club cancelled a scheduled match because all the Directors and most of the ROs and shooters were going to the Area 8 L3 match.  The year before they didn't cancel the match and only 35 showed up instead of the usual 80-90.  I'm in a serious USPSA area.  At any of the clubs I shoot at, if you are 90 seconds slow registering, you are on the waitlist.

[shred]

2 hours ago, mreed911 said:

 

Which division allows for a slide-mounted optic and has major scoring?  Did I miss one?

Which mass market 2011 vendor makes a 9mm major, .40 or .45 2011?

Open, but nobody wants to hear that.. 

 

Stacatto says their 9mm 2011's are ok with 9mm+P.  That's doable for 165 PF, especially if you aren't trying to get there with a 115gr bullet. The  Springfield Prodigy manual is silent about +P (or ammo in general except the usual 'don't use reloads').

 

RIA makes their Para clone in .40 and 10mm.  CZ makes the TS2 single-action pistol in .40.

 

But, I think we're stuck with what we've got for a while, like it or not.

 

[Darqusoull13]

2 hours ago, shred said:

Open, but nobody wants to hear that.. 

 

Still to this day I think Open, 38 SC not that abomination 9 major, is about as much fun as you can have with a pistol. Problem is CO and Limited (real Limited, with a 40) are 95+% of the fun without the extra hassle. 

 

5 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

Again, a small part of the membership could care less what Nils is doing or what he is shooting was my original point.

 

 

The example provided was to reinforce the point that it doesn't matter what gun the majority of people buy to increase skill. Practice and increasing skills actually win matches, not changing guns every other month to the new shiny. It's going to be interesting to see the new membership numbers after 6 months of LO cannibalizing other divisions. 

LO is still a wasted effort trying to bring people into the sport. All the time, money and effort put into LO could have been put into CO with 100 times the number of new members and participants. The demographics at CO Nats and CO in the general population are exactly what the sport has been trying to recruit. CO is full of young 20-30 somethings with time and disposable income before "life happens."

[motosapiens]

11 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

LO is still a wasted effort trying to bring people into the sport. 

i don't think it was ever about bringing people into the sport. it's about helping staccato and atlas and infinity sell expensive guns with fewer warranty issues to people who are scared of recoil (or people who don't want to invest in a 'dying caliber', lomfl!)

 

Which is fine, btw, but still subject to mockery. in the motorcycle world, people who ride 250 4strokes also claim they don't want to invest in dying technology because 2strokes are too much fun for them.

Edited May 10, 2023 by motosapiens

[mreed911]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

people who are scared of recoil (or people who don't want to invest in a 'dying caliber'

You keep saying this, but otherwise ignoring the general ubiquity of the caliber or the significant difference in ammunition cost between them now.

 

It's clear you have a bias... but have you considered that you have a bias?  Does continually denigrating people's choice of gun or ammunition somehow please you?  With this choice, as you note, they're choosing less forgiving scoring bands (minor vs. major) so it seems the sport already recognizes an appropriate tradeoff.  Why is there need to sneer at people who choose a valid lane of participation with any gun or ammo choice?  What's next?  "They're shooting revo, they're afraid of semi-automatics?"  "They're shooting Production, they're afraid of the weight of a full magazine?"  "They're shooting single stack, they're afraid of not taking their metamucil every morning?"

[Boomstick303]

32 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

It's clear you have a bias... but have you considered that you have a bias?  Does continually denigrating people's choice of gun or ammunition somehow please you?

 

It is who he is.  The organization did exactly what he wanted them to do on the subject which was vote on it.  The Vote did not go his way but he still finds the bandwidth to bitch about the resulting effort.  `

 

55 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

LO is still a wasted effort trying to bring people into the sport. All the time, money and effort put into LO could have been put into CO with 100 times the number of new members and participants.

 

What effort was that.  At what cost exactly to the membership?  Adding a Provisional Division takes almost next to no work.  Not sure how allowing people to shoot the majority of guns sold in shooting sports as they come a waste of time and effort either, but we are all entitled to an opinion.  As a provisional there is no harm to see how that division grows, cannibalizes, or whatever it does.  

 

This includes not investing in a dying caliber or spending gobs of money to shoot a SA action gun, where SA guns seem to have a growing market which has way more offering at a number of price points that was not available to consumers just a couple of years ago. 

 

 

[RJH]

I like limited optics, pretty much the way it is now. The one thing I wished that the.org had done differently, and maybe they still can since it is a provisional division, I can't remember all the rules on provisional provisions LOL, but I wish they would have just made it 20 round Max in the mag. 

 

I think it would be a good place to test 20 round Max. Then 40s could play at no disadvantage, and having to dick with giant mags and spending a bunch of money for people getting into the sport would be a non-issue.

 

Prodigy mags are $40 and when I have let people borrow mine for their staccatos they have worked just fine, so I assume they wouldn't work with all the rest of the 2011s. The guys that have forties that have already spent money on mags to get 20 would be able to compete head to head with minor ammo. And if you had a bigger mag that held 22 or whatever, you could still use it and only load 20.

 

I mean we already know to only load 10 in production, and we already know the only load 15 for ipsc production, I don't see that only loading 20 would be a huge issue, and that would basically make all of the current guns that people are shooting in limited completely viable for an easy swap to limited optics 

 

 

And I say this is a guy who just spent some money to get my mags to hold more than 20. But I would be okay with that being a waste, to make the correct decision going forward

[deerslayer]

3 hours ago, RJH said:

I like limited optics, pretty much the way it is now. The one thing I wished that the.org had done differently, and maybe they still can since it is a provisional division, I can't remember all the rules on provisional provisions LOL, but I wish they would have just made it 20 round Max in the mag. 

 

I think it would be a good place to test 20 round Max. Then 40s could play at no disadvantage, and having to dick with giant mags and spending a bunch of money for people getting into the sport would be a non-issue.

 

That is an interesting idea.  

[Cuz]

15 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

 

The demographics at CO Nats and CO in the general population are exactly what the sport has been trying to recruit. CO is full of young 20-30 somethings with time and disposable income before "life happens."

What?  I thought CO was for us old Production shooters that could no longer see their sights…

[motosapiens]

17 hours ago, mreed911 said:

You keep saying this, but otherwise ignoring the general ubiquity of the caliber or the significant difference in ammunition cost between them now.

 

It's clear you have a bias... but have you considered that you have a bias?  

of course I have a bias. I find it more fun to ride powerful motorcycles and shoot powerful guns, and it doesn't offend me if someone points out.

 

OTOH, people who ride scooters and shoot little guns seem very sensitive about it. So I apologize for hurting anyone's feelings with my joking microaggressions. 

[Darqusoull13]

17 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i don't think it was ever about bringing people into the sport. it's about helping staccato and atlas and infinity sell expensive guns with fewer warranty issues to people who are scared of recoil (or people who don't want to invest in a 'dying caliber', lomfl!)

 

Which is fine, btw, but still subject to mockery. in the motorcycle world, people who ride 250 4strokes also claim they don't want to invest in dying technology because 2strokes are too much fun for them.

Thank you for the laugh. I agree though. 

 

16 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

What effort was that.  At what cost exactly to the membership?  Adding a Provisional Division takes almost next to no work.  Not sure how allowing people to shoot the majority of guns sold in shooting sports as they come a waste of time and effort either, but we are all entitled to an opinion.  As a provisional there is no harm to see how that division grows, cannibalizes, or whatever it does.  

A provisional division should, in theory, be proposed, debated, picked apart, tested and torn completely apart prior to being implemented. If an idea cannot go through the harshest criticisms on its own merit it should be reevaluated. 

However, I agree, as implemented LO seems to have taken almost no effort by USPSA. My perception has been it was merely rubber stamped as presented by makers. What fruit would their efforts bear if asked, "Is there a better way than what is currently done to grow the sport?" 

[barry]

36 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

of course I have a bias. I find it more fun to ride powerful motorcycles and shoot powerful guns, and it doesn't offend me if someone points out.

 

OTOH, people who ride scooters and shoot little guns seem very sensitive about it. So I apologize for hurting anyone's feelings with my joking microaggressions. 

[truespode]

18 hours ago, motosapiens said:

people who ride 250 4strokes also claim they don't want to invest in dying technology because 2strokes are too much fun for them.

 

Braaappp!

[MikeBurgess]

21 hours ago, shred said:

Open, but nobody wants to hear that.. 

 

Stacatto says their 9mm 2011's are ok with 9mm+P.  That's doable for 165 PF, especially if you aren't trying to get there with a 115gr bullet. The  Springfield Prodigy manual is silent about +P (or ammo in general except the usual 'don't use reloads').

 

RIA makes their Para clone in .40 and 10mm.  CZ makes the TS2 single-action pistol in .40.

 

But, I think we're stuck with what we've got for a while, like it or not.

 

So far I have see little difference in what various 1911 format guns can handle, one of my open guns has a $65 eBay RIA 9mm barrel in it, its probably only got 10k ish on it but is holding up fine, actually cant bring myself to get rid of it because it will eat all the ammo that fails the Hundo. 

 

IMHO a manufacturer would need to go out of their way to make extra sub standard barrels and slides to make 9 major a no go.

[GigG]

On 5/10/2023 at 9:56 AM, motosapiens said:

exactly. LO is for people that suck at DA triggers, and are scared of major.

Well, there are those of us that suck at DA triggers and wanted major in LO.

[RJH]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

of course I have a bias. I find it more fun to ride powerful motorcycles and shoot powerful guns, and it doesn't offend me if someone points out.

 

OTOH, people who ride scooters and shoot little guns seem very sensitive about it. So I apologize for hurting anyone's feelings with my joking microaggressions. 

 

Lol, why do I get the feeling you are about 5'5" and 140 pounds

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Lol, why do I get the feeling you are about 5'5" and 140 pounds

ermagerd! I'm so offended! you owe me reparations!

(6-2 and 175, btw).

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

ermagerd! I'm so offended! you owe me reparations!

(6-2 and 175, btw).

 

Wow that's a pretty serious case of short man syndrome you got for somebody that is 6'2"

 

Usually it's just little guys always trying to talk about how tough they are. Maybe I shouldn't judge though, maybe you've got beat up by your sister a lot when you were growing up, and then one day you got the upper hand on her and have professed your manliness ever since 

[motosapiens]

9 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Wow that's a pretty serious case of short man syndrome you got for somebody that is 6'2"

 

Usually it's just little guys always trying to talk about how tough they are. Maybe I shouldn't judge though, maybe you've got beat up by your sister a lot when you were growing up, and then one day you got the upper hand on her and have professed your manliness ever since 

I don't recall ever saying I was tough. Not sure where you got that. Anyway, I'm sure it's fascinating to talk about me, but back to the thread topic.....

 

I hope they eventually allow compensators in LO.

Edited May 11, 2023 by motosapiens

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I don't recall ever saying I was tough. Not sure where you got that.

 

I hope they eventually allow compensators in LO.

 

Was tough not the right word? I felt tough was implied by how you like to talk a lot of noise about the manliness it takes to shoot a 50 Oz 40 cal

 

On compensators in limited optics, it wouldn't really bother me. But I ain't lobbying for it either. I actually think they did a pretty fair job with limited optics the way it is now, with the exception of capping capacity at 20 rounds regardless of magling