Limited optics Vs Open

[motosapiens]

15 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

Is there some reason they couldn't allow the various .38/9mm caliber guns in the class?  It isn't like Major is 175 anymore.

the whole point of the division is so that atlas and staccato can sell expensive guns that won't break right away to people who don't like recoil. 

 

I also would have preferred maj/min for my own selfish reasons, but it seemed pretty clear that the vast majority of people who actually *wanted* a new division wanted it to be minor only so they wouldn't be at a disadvantage.

Edited May 18, 2023 by motosapiens

[shred]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

A division for uncomped 9 major guns sounds like something I never want to shoot. 

 

Yeah, it would be way too quiet   Based on a little testing there would be a hard swerve away from 115/124-gr bullets to 147+ in uncomped-Major-9 division...

 

[Racinready300ex]

5 minutes ago, shred said:

Yeah, it would be way too quiet   Based on a little testing there would be a hard swerve away from 115/124-gr bullets to 147+ in uncomped-Major-9 division...

 

 

Blue Bullets sells 160's. 

[GigG]

13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

the whole point of the division is so that atlas and staccato can sell expensive guns that won't break right away to people who don't like recoil. 

 

I also would have preferred maj/min for my own selfish reasons, but it seemed pretty clear that the vast majority of people who actually *wanted* a new division wanted it to be minor only so they wouldn't be at a disadvantage.

 

It was a majority.  I don't know that I would call it vast.

 

[shred]

Everybody wants "easy" these days...  

[RJH]

43 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

 

Worth noting that with the right CO gun you can start 25+1. 

 

 

Which one was that? Most I've seen is 24 that everybody's getting now, it is interesting that one will do 25

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

 

Which one was that? Most I've seen is 24 that everybody's getting now, it is interesting that one will do 25

 

M&P, but I don't know the exact combination of parts to pull that off. 

[motosapiens]

44 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

It was a majority.  I don't know that I would call it vast.

 

i think alot of people that voted for major/minor scoring are folks like me, who were never among the real proponents of a new division, and will probably not shoot LO anytime soon. Among the people that were actively pushing for LO, there were literally zero that wanted maj/min. It was always pushed as minor-only from the start.

[RJH]

On mags for the people who are wanting to shoot their 40 gun in limited optics, I do know one guy who has a 22 round mag that works and is legal. I have no idea what kind of voodoo they did to it, and I can't really remember what brand it is, but that might help people bridge  the gap if they can find some mags like that. I forgot to say that is a 2011 mag

[BritinUSA]

43 minutes ago, shred said:

Everybody wants "easy" these days...  

I've been saying this for a while now…. 

 

Many of the changes that have been made over the last few years have been aimed not an improving the sport but in making it easier. More rounds in the magazines to reduce the need to reload, more modifications allowed in Production/CO to make the guns easier to shoot. Moving mag holders on the belt to make the fewer reloads easier.

 

This is a sport; It's not supposed to be easy, it's supposed to be a challenge. 

 

USPSA caters to the social shooter, the participant who funnels their money to the coffers on a regular basis. It no longer respects the origins of the sport which are improving skills and knowledge.

 

[BritinUSA]

19 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

It was always pushed as minor-only from the start.

The vendors don't want people to put a red-dot on their existing Limited gun. They want the new gun sales.

 

2500 votes out of 30,000+ members is not a mandate. The org should have set it at Major/Minor, if the org just caters to the mob then it's going to fail. They should do what is good for the sport, not what makes a few vendors/hobbyists happy.

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

The vendors don't want people to put a red-dot on their existing Limited gun. They want the new gun sales.

 

2500 votes out of 30,000+ members is not a mandate. The org should have set it at Major/Minor, if the org just caters to the mob then it's going to fail. They should do what is good for the sport, not what makes a few vendors/hobbyists happy.

 

The mob in this case are the members paying dues, shooting matches and likely the ones who bother to vote. 

[Racinready300ex]

25 minutes ago, RJH said:

On mags for the people who are wanting to shoot their 40 gun in limited optics, I do know one guy who has a 22 round mag that works and is legal. I have no idea what kind of voodoo they did to it, and I can't really remember what brand it is, but that might help people bridge  the gap if they can find some mags like that. I forgot to say that is a 2011 mag

I've heard those exist, I think the body might of been old infinity tubes. I know one guy that says he has one, but like you I don't really know the details and I've not seen it first hand.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Racinready300ex

[MHicks]

I still wonder how much of the increased desire to  shoot 9mm minor is because of less recoil vs just being able to shoot cheap ammo when it's not at crisis prices.  I think it's more about cost. 

[Squishy]

35 minutes ago, RJH said:

On mags for the people who are wanting to shoot their 40 gun in limited optics, I do know one guy who has a 22 round mag that works and is legal. I have no idea what kind of voodoo they did to it, and I can't really remember what brand it is, but that might help people bridge  the gap if they can find some mags like that. I forgot to say that is a 2011 mag

I have 3 SV mags built by HSMITH years ago that hold 22 rds. of 40 cal that fit the gauge . He told me they were a pain in the ass to make. Bolen spring and follower and base pad. Still have 2 of them.

[Racinready300ex]

26 minutes ago, Squishy said:

I have 3 SV mags built by HSMITH years ago that hold 22 rds. of 40 cal that fit the gauge . He told me they were a pain in the ass to make. Bolen spring and follower and base pad. Still have 2 of them.

 

You should sell them before limited completely dies. Unless you still shoot limited, in which case I'd be giving my friends s#!t when ever I saw a 22 round stage. But, 22 round stages aren't super common. Seems like 23-24 is more likely. 

[Boomstick303]

There is a place to shoot a Major gun with a dot. 

 

It's called Open.

[barry]

Also a place to shoot minor with a dot called

 

carry optics 

What's your point

[Racinready300ex]

21 minutes ago, barry said:

Also a place to shoot minor with a dot called

 

carry optics 

What's your point

 

Maybe rephrase, There is already a place to shoot a SAO, major PF gun with a optic.

[RJH]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

I've been saying this for a while now…. 

 

Many of the changes that have been made over the last few years have been aimed not an improving the sport but in making it easier. More rounds in the magazines to reduce the need to reload, more modifications allowed in Production/CO to make the guns easier to shoot. Moving mag holders on the belt to make the fewer reloads easier.

 

This is a sport; It's not supposed to be easy, it's supposed to be a challenge. 

 

USPSA caters to the social shooter, the participant who funnels their money to the coffers on a regular basis. It no longer respects the origins of the sport which are improving skills and knowledge.

 

Lol

 

I laughed because this take is hilarious. The sport is not easier or harder depending on division or rules. The hardness of the sport is directly derived from beating other people with the same equipment.

 

If the goal was just to make it hard to do, everybody would shoot revolvers. Or hell Black powder revolvers, or black powder single shots. See how just basing things on being hard gets stupid real quick

 

 

If the sport is so easy now it should be super simple for any of us to take home those area and national wins, guess what it ain't.

 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

43 minutes ago, RJH said:

Lol

 

I laughed because this take is hilarious. The sport is not easier or harder depending on division or rules. The hardness of the sport is directly derived from beating other people with the same equipment.

 

If the goal was just to make it hard to do, everybody would shoot revolvers. Or hell Black powder revolvers, or black powder single shots. See how just basing things on being hard gets stupid real quick

 

 

If the sport is so easy now it should be super simple for any of us to take home those area and national wins, guess what it ain't.

 

 

 

 

I'd add stage design effects "hardness" or difficulty. Yeah it's trying to beat people too, and deal with pressure and all that jazz.

 

Example a really fast stage with a high hit factor is easier then a low hit factor stage with difficult shooting. You can see this in the results, if there is little separation between a good shooter and a mediocre shooter it probably wasn't a difficult stage. That usually happens on hoser stages. Similarly a 5 stage match is easier than a 10 stage match. 

 

Currently Carry Optics is probably the hardest division to exist in our sport. Look at nationals, there will be 180 M/GM's combined. That's more that some sectionals have shooters. So many guys are in the running that there is more than one super squad. And the bar is so much higher today than ever before. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Racinready300ex

[truespode]

2 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

2500 votes out of 30,000+ members is not a mandate. 

 

 

Isn't 2500 members a good portion that actually shoot regularly? There was some stats around those that shoot more than a few times a year and it was pretty low if I'm remembering correctly.

[Boomstick303]

3 hours ago, barry said:

What's your point

 

Are Single Action gun allowed in CO?

 

If they would have allowed SA guns in CO this would have been much easier.  Not willing to rehash hundreds of posts about the subject.

 

@Racinready300ex is correct.  I should have said,

 

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

There is already a place to shoot a SAO, major PF gun with a optic.

 

All I kept hearing this whole debate was there is a place for Minor SA guns, its called open.  Well the same could be said about Major in LO.  That is the point I am trying to make.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Boomstick303

[Joe4d]

On 5/13/2023 at 3:21 AM, RJH said:

 

Carver has a mount for rail guns, I wonder if that would work

not really, tried it on a railed 1911 pin gun,, wasnt lock solid stationary,, would need a couple more set screws drilled and tapped.

[barry]

Personally I think all divisions should be major/minor scoring.  Shoot what you like .