Are Open guns not as reliable as they were 30 years ago?

[GigG]

I've been back in the sport for about a year after an almost 30 year break. When I started the sport a top flight Open gun was a custom 1911 with a 1 or 2 port comp. I was there when people started adding Tosco ProPoint tubes to those guns and my last gun that I ran for about a year was built on a Chip McCormick Hi-Cap 1911 with that same Tosco ProPoint. We were shooting 175 PF .38 Super. 

 

I don't remember any failures in my gun and very few in other's guns. Sure there was the occasional problem but you seldom saw them at major matches unless something just broke and that was rare.

 

I shoot at 4 different clubs monthly and RO'd both the Arkansas Sectional and Area 4 last year and I don't know that I've seen a stage or squad that didn't have some failures to function.

 

The only major change I see is that there are a lot of Major 9mm and the longer mags than we had back then.

[Explosiveo]

If people are having failures, In my experience, it’s due to careless ammo loading. Careless maintenance. Or both.

 

I shoot 9 Major and don’t have many issues. If I do then I fix them before going to another match. Especially a major. 
 

it isn’t that complicated to make a open gun run. Change the springs on your mags every so often and case gauge your ammo.

[zzt]

I shoot with a bunch of Open major shooters.  No one has problems with their guns unless something breaks.  I've been shooting my current Open gun for three years now.  Twice I had Dawson parts break disabling the gun.  Fortunately, I had a backup.  I don't use Dawson parts anymore.

 

Honestly, almost all of the problems I see as an RO are with Prod and CO guns.

[Boomstick303]

23 minutes ago, GigG said:

The only major change I see is that there are a lot of Major 9mm and the longer mags than we had back then.

 

I would imagine you would need to know the ratio of 9 mm vs .38 Super are failing.  I see more 9mm guns fail than .38 Super guns fail.  Maybe that's due to the 9mm guys not knowing what they are doing, or do not maintain their guns, but this is an observation I have made.   

 

The other issue is how knowledgeable are the people running the gun?  I watch knowledgeable GMs ask open shooters have you done this to the gun, have you checked this, and most of the time the shooter has a quizzical look on their face and/or flatly says no. I have to admit I know very little about the 2011 Platform which will be changing this year but I have asked basics about 2011s and most issues seem to deal with the extractor and tuning of that extractor.  Also ammo length seems to be a huge deal with 2011s.  It has been discussed on this forum a lot about how the 1911/2011 platform is designed around a long cartridge.  Are people correctly tuning their ammo to run in the gun in regards to OAL.  

 

In our section, it seems more 2011 type guns have issues than striker fired guns.

 

From where I sit it is more to do about the operators knowledge or lack there of than the platform.  

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Boomstick303

[Racinready300ex]

I wasn't around back then, but I know the PF was 175 and people loaded 180+. I had some ammo that came with a gun I bought that was loaded at 185.

 

I've seen a lot of open guns with cracked slides even at our lower pf. But looking at guns today the slides are cut up more, and I wonder if we don't run lighter springs. 9 major is a thing now, Even then, could it really just be more people shooting more rounds now then there were back then. 

 

Hard to say, but it seem like open guns break. 

[rishii]

Things  were simpler then, I got my 1st race gun in the early 90’s 

in my neck of the woods, they were all in 38 super, we all ran heavier bullet than we run now and the swoosh cut on the back of the slide was about the only lightening we did, and plastic grips were the rage. Guns broke back then but it was usually small stuff.

now we lighten the hell out of them to the point I look at some slides and wonder how long before it cracks, most are in 9major which pushes the pressure way beyond the old 38 stupid gun, and trying to squeeze that last extra round into a 170 tube doesn’t help.

 

on the plus side, scope are way more durable, I can’t tell you how many tascos and adco scopes I went thru, including the “bulletproofed” one.

back then we had a choice of para, caspian, Springfield P9 and sti high cap frame. para is Basically gone, caspian is only selling SS frames and no one knows what a P9 is, but we have more choices of 2011 frames.

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

There’s a lot of companies out there now.  Some are great.  Some not so much.    Maintenance is a big thing on open guns plus the ammo. I’d wager a lot of folks don’t take care of their stuff properly   Most load their own.  Most I wouldn’t trust their ammo even if it was minor pf.  

[CC3D]

Purely speculation but the popularity of 9 major these days compared to 38 super 30 years ago may be contributory. 9 major is just harder on guns, not to mention cheaper to reload. Cheaper = more people attempting it = more people being unsuccessful/ causing user induced problems. 

 

All that to say, guns probably aren't less reliable but the ammo is harder on them. 

[BritinUSA]

I used to run .38 Super in my 2011 guns and the only issue I ever had was with ammo.

 

I had a Tanfoglio gun also set up in .38 Super and that thing was a pain, I never managed to get it 100% reliable.

 

My 2011's were set up with 10lb recoil springs shooting 125 grain bullets, back in England (when PF was 175) I preferred 150 grain bullets.

 

I think some people are running very light recoil springs, 9mm cases and 115 grain bullets, this combination may be putting more stress on the parts than .38 Super ever did.

 

[shred]

9mm range pickup brass is highly variable.  The nadir of open gun reliability was 9x19 with an old-school C-more serendipity on it.  Very difficult to get them ejecting properly with all brass and they went out of tune fast.  The new small dots fixed a lot of that and gunsmiths have figured out how to make them work better.

 

Back in the days of single-stack race guns mags weren't an issue.  It was when people started trying to run big sticks that things went sideways reliability-wise for a while until people figured out what it took.

 

Now it's people trying to cram that 24th round into a CO 140 that are having teething troubles...

 

[GrumpyOne]

7 hours ago, rishii said:

back then we had a choice of para, caspian, Springfield P9 and sti high cap frame. para is Basically gone, caspian is only selling SS frames and no one knows what a P9 is, but we have more choices of 2011 frames.

No one knows what a P9 is? Check the two in the top of the pic...

[BritinUSA]

I had a P9 open gun. If I recall it was made by Tanfoglio for Springfield Armory. The parts were interchangeable with the branded Tanfoglios.

 

The frames were very soft, I had some issues with scope mounts working loose because of it. This was before the C-More came out, the Tasco's and Aimpoints were a lot heavier. A Uk gun dealer (John Slough) came up with the Spitfire, similar design to CZ75 but with much harder frames.

 

[MikeBurgess]

Did someone say P9?

 

[MikeBurgess]

But back to the OPs question, I haven't been in the game for 30 years but in my 15ish I have seen open guns get way more reliable in general. 

the biggest issue with 9 major is ammo. There are 100s of 9mm brass head stamps and they are not all equal. there are 100s of different guns designs shooting 9mm and doing god knows what to the brass in the process. IMHO if you shoot 9mm in an open gun you need a roll sizer or a friend with one. on the other hand 38 has about 4 head stamps and I don't think any are garbage, and any found on the ground were likely not shot out of Hi Point.

 

[sc68cal]

I agree that 9 major with range pick-up brass is not going to be as reliable as 38SC loaded on brand new starline brass. Especially if the brass is mixed, your ejection pattern will be all over the place and if your optic mount is very close to the ejection port (or over it like mine) you can have issues. I think 9major using new starline brass gets close but at that point you're not saving any money. The key is that in practice, range pickup 9major is so much more cost effective that a couple stoppages don't matter. Obviously, for major matches with 9 major it's worth shooting starline 9mm brass to remove that from the equation

[zzt]

Range pick-up for 9 major is a problem.  One buddy got so fed up he bought a roll sizer.  That cured the problems.  I take a different approach.  I buy all once fired, same headstamp, fully processed and roll sized brass.  I load it, shoot it once and leave it on the ground.  I do pick up and reuse brass when I practice.  It is a club requirement.  It works just fine for 9 minor Open loads for my SCSA Open gun.  SDs are always in the 4 to 7 range.

[bustopher4]

I have ran 9 major in open for almost 4 years now with almost no issues, but I was taught to case gauge all my ammo in the beginning. Also I run once fired matching head stamp brass.  My opinion most issues, open and all other classes typically are reloading issues.

   The only dependability issue I have ever had was because of a worn out spring in my Aftec extractor, and lets face it springs wear out. Especially when they recommend you change them every 5,000 rounds and I  had almost 10,000 on it. 

[zzt]

I can't speak to Open guns of 15 years ago.  I've only been shooting Open guns for 5 or 6 years.  So maybe 38Super had less pressure then.  Not today.  The only 38S guns I see now as an RO have huge comps and 6 or 8 poppels in a V config.  They are LOUD and flat.  It takes gobs of powder to work that many holes, so pressures are really up there.  Al the other 38S guns I used to see have been converted to 9mm.

 

The notion that 9mm major is harder on the gun than 38S is one I don't buy.  You have only to look at reloading manuals to find 9mm loaded long with 115s that make major under SAAMI pressure specs.  Go to +P pressures and there are more.  So, you'll have to work hard to convince me that a major 9mm running cool burning slow powders is harder on the gun than a full pressure factory round burning Titegroup or OEM equivalent.  I don't know anything that burns hotter than Titegroup.

 

Another thing I don't get is people shooting 9 major Open gun running 7 lb. springs.  That is just asking for trouble.  Both my 2011 major guns are very tightly fit.  Tight as in no play.  They are smooth.  One runs a 9 lb.  The other a 10 lb.  Ammo is 176+PF.

[CalTeacher]

The majority of gun problems I’ve witnessed have come from Glocks that people tinker with in an attempt to turn them into a cheap race gun.

 

On the 2011 platform, ammo and mags are the biggest causes of failures, followed by failed extractors/ejectors.  I’ve seen numerous slides crack on open guns and the only thing they had in common was the fact they were open guns.

 

I haven't noticed any observable increase in malfunctions in open guns now compared to over a decade ago when I began this sport.  9mm guns have been pretty much figured out, though they’re still less reliable than 38SC guns in the long run.  The difference, however,  has become fairly marginal in that regard.

[Powder Finger]

5 hours ago, zzt said:

I can't speak to Open guns of 15 years ago.  I've only been shooting Open guns for 5 or 6 years.  So maybe 38Super had less pressure then.  Not today.  The only 38S guns I see now as an RO have huge comps and 6 or 8 poppels in a V config.  They are LOUD and flat.  It takes gobs of powder to work that many holes, so pressures are really up there.  Al the other 38S guns I used to see have been converted to 9mm.

 

The notion that 9mm major is harder on the gun than 38S is one I don't buy.  You have only to look at reloading manuals to find 9mm loaded long with 115s that make major under SAAMI pressure specs.  Go to +P pressures and there are more.  So, you'll have to work hard to convince me that a major 9mm running cool burning slow powders is harder on the gun than a full pressure factory round burning Titegroup or OEM equivalent.  I don't know anything that burns hotter than Titegroup.

 

Another thing I don't get is people shooting 9 major Open gun running 7 lb. springs.  That is just asking for trouble.  Both my 2011 major guns are very tightly fit.  Tight as in no play.  They are smooth.  One runs a 9 lb.  The other a 10 lb.  Ammo is 176+PF.

Pf  was 175 then so requirement was more pressure 

[StefVanHauwe]

In 2018 I started shooting IPSC in Open Division with ~25K rounds per year. I have 3 Bul Armory (BA) open race guns: BA SAS 2 Bullesteros in 9mm major (newest  & primary match gun), BA SAS 2 Bullesteros in 9mm major (primary training & secondary match back up gun), BA SAS 2 Ultimate Racer in 9mm major (secondary training gun). Luckily I had/have 3 ... otherwise my competition season would have been over very soon. Approximately 1 year ago (~8500 rounds) the slide of my UR cracked at the ejection port (a new slide was just fitted - test firing it now), in december 2022 (~6000 rounds) the frame/grip link broke clean off from my training Bullesteros (for the 2nd time already! - it was just welded back on, but I'm waiting on a new BA grip). The gun shop/smith and BA are really helpful and correct as far as warranty is concerned, but remains of course the long time the guns are out of order ... Other club OD shooters also had barrels or slides crack ... especially in 9mm major (=common demoninator). I think that it's just a matter of time before you'll be faced with serious damage on your race gun. I don't like it, but I accept that that's part of shooting in OD.

[Darqusoull13]

On 1/26/2023 at 8:21 PM, shred said:

Now it's people trying to cram that 24th round into a CO 140 that are having teething troubles...

 

It works fine as long as your first round is major PF to overcome the spring pressure. Also, don't drop that mag on the ground after you filed the base pad so thin. Definitely clean both the mag and rounds so they feed that magical last 24th time with so little spring pressure at the end of the stage. 

Back on topic, Open is more reliable now from what I've seen in a short amount of time. Guys still push the operational window but to some extent that's the nature of Open. Having shot a few historical pieces that were quite well made it seems like there are more options for similar or better quality as knowledge grew and spread over the years. 

If you want something that's easy to keep running and will be a pleasure to shoot get a 38 SC with minimal holes in the barrel and run 124's with 3n38. Can't remember who made that suggestion. Some old timer that had seen a thing or two. 

[Azshooter44]

My Bul Armory SAS II UR-F has had 2 malfunctions out the maybe 500 rounds through it, both being 115 grain. Don't have much experience with major, I figured I would spend the money on minor rounds until I am in the running. That being said, others I shoot with in major don't seem to have many issues.

Edited March 15, 2023 by brainenos

[joesmithchitown]

It leads to problems because reloaders either make mistakes by overcharging their loads, which can lead to many issues.  However, most quality 2011 makers make good firearms, and at the end of the day, it's the responsibility of the user to take care of his open platform and ammo.  Some like to reuse brass, others like brand-new brass.  Personally, I've never had any issues using once-fired brass.  None of my open guns have malfunctioned, broken, etc.  Many shooters usually have a "backup" gun, but it's not truly needed if you're not a serious competitor.