Doing away with major PF, from a practical standpoint

[Balakay]

21 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

soon to be LO going to 140's is gonna kill Open.

you have either never shot open, are uninformed, or both

Edited January 18, 2023 by Balakay
typo

[shred]

7 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

For sure, but the NFL changes the rules quite often.

But not the core tenets.

 

7 minutes ago, RJH said:

One question would definitely be to ask what improvement to the game it would bring, a possible answer would be more accurate shooters overall as an end result. More readily available guns would be another.

 

 

Because people love accuracy-focused pistol sports.  I can't get near the Bullseye range when there's a match on... 

 

More likely the targets would just all move yards closer "for the noobs".  If you haven't noticed equipment heavily influences stage design, you haven't been paying attention.

 

 

[RJH]

Just now, shred said:

But not the core tenets.

 

 

Because people love accuracy pistol sports.  I can't get near the Bullseye range when there's a match on...

 

 

I'm not sure going minor only changes the core tenets of the sport. It would still be a balance of speed, accuracy, and power. There are many stages were accuracy, especially with major power factor is the tiniest part of that triangle. In fact eliminating major could quite possibly bring the three sides of the triangle more in line, but maybe not

 

 

 

[shred]

No, it would not.  Major lets you shoot differently because of what it enables.

 

[Joe4d]

3 minutes ago, Balakay said:

you have either never shot open, are uninformed, or both

just scrolled through some majors from 2022,,, seems limited and open are on a downward trend. only about 1/4 to 1/3 of major match shooters are even shooting in a division that rewards major. And thats  higher level matches wheich have a higher percentage of more serious shooters.
Bet if you went down to over all club level match numbers,,, well under 1/4th are shooting divisions that reward major, and of that 1/4th from what I am seeing lot are shooting minor anyways..
Sooo basically the thread is a moot point..  Doesnt matter what USPSA does with the rules... Major is dying anyways.

[motosapiens]

2 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

just scrolled through some majors from 2022,,, seems limited and open are on a downward trend. 

People who are good at math don't consider 1 year a 'trend'.

[Ssanders224]

51 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

Argument is based on a false premise.  Most LEO agencies that have gone to 9mm are using +P or +P+ loads (like Winchester Ranger) that are around 160pf.  They are not shooting 125 pf loads like USPSA minor.  In fact, they are borderline close to major, and some are even over 165 pf.  So, the idea of the LEO market shift justifies minor only is out the window.  Also, as was previously stated, accuracy is not the paramount concern for LEO-type ammo.  They're actually more concerned with energy/stopping power, particularly since about 90+% of shootings are within 10 yards. 

 

Well. Not exactly. 

 

The most popular SKU's in the Ranger and Ranger Bonded LE lineup are:

RA9T : 145 PF

RA9124TP : 146 PF

RA9BA: 146 PF

RA9B: 146 PF

RA9B1: 147 PF. 

RA9TA is by far the "hottest" 9mm round available in the Win LE lineup. It's a 127gr +P+ and comes in at 158 PF. It's not super popular, and doesn't fly off the shelves. 

 

It's been said plenty, but no one (at a professional level) is concerned with "energy/stopping power" as it pertains to defensive handgun ammunition. They are concerned with how a round performs against FBI protocol in calibrated ballistic gelatin. A little simplified, but adequate penetration, reliable upset, and barrier performance are pretty much the sole variables by which defensive handgun ammunition is evaluated. 

 

With most defensive handgun rounds, the terminal difference in 140 PF and 160 PF is negligible, given that both rounds are operating within the optimal velocity window of the projectile, and achieve adequate penetration. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Ssanders224

[Boomstick303]

First this is a game.  So I am not sure what any outside organization indicates, does, or uses has any bearing on this sport.  Maybe it can be said this was used to create a baseline for Minor and Major Power Factors that is fine, but moving forward I do not see how this has any bearing.

 

What does have a bearing is the current market of ammo and guns/ammo the individuals are using in real life and in the sport.

 

While I think the sport is moving in the direction of exclusively using 9mm Minor ammo, there is a place for Major.  I think current participation numbers indicate this for both the expanded use of minor guns/ammo and the current membership shooting Major.  I understand you are not advocating for the removal of Major, I think there is enough interest to leave it alone.  There are enough shooters in the game to today with so much invested it does not make sense to change anything in regards to Minor or Major PF.

 

Increasing Minor PF from 125 to some other arbitrary number makes zero sense.  You are then alienating the majority of the membership that does not reload their own ammo, and also increases the difficulty of new shooters to get into the game.  I imagine a PF 125 was chosen to make using off the shelf ammo a no brainer causing little issue for the new shooters and weekend warrior shooters alike to participate worry free if their ammo makes PF or not.  Making most people having to chrono their ammo, especially store bought ammo is going to turn a lot of shooters off.

 

While I can see a scenario where Major PF divisions dies a slow death, I have zero idea when that day would come.  I do not think Major is the only issues that will possibly kill those divisions either.  The move to optics, the expense of reloading major, cost of equipment, Major PF shooters aging out,  etc. will contribute to those divisions dwindling  participation numbers.  Its obviously not here today, but who knows what the future holds.  If the world comes crashing down, and the economy explodes, how many people are actually shooting at all let alone Major which is so expensive, in many regards to shoot?

 

 

[deerslayer]

Loading .40 major costs me about $.02-.03 more per round than 9 minor.  
 

Raising minor to 150 or even 140 could seriously hurt participation numbers (at least when there will be a chrono).  Not everyone handloads and I have seen factory ammo that wouldn’t make 130 pf.  If pf is raised to 140, most prudent shooters will be making 145+.  
 

This idea seems especially dumb given that we are in an ammo/component crunch and stuff is already hard to find and expensive when you do.  Why make life harder by making half the ammo available useless and limiting what powders one can use to load to pf?

Edited January 18, 2023 by deerslayer

[CC3D]

I dont see major power factor as a "reward" for taming recoil (as I believe its original intention is) but rather as a separate game mechanic. Different game mechanics make the sport more diverse and interesting. Low cap was a very popular game mechanic for some time- many of the people still shooting production cite "needing to more carefully plan stages" etc as a reason they like the division. 

 

Major allows for a different approach to stages, yes biasing speed over accuracy, but challenging shooters in a different way. Shooting major isn't "easier" than minor, because the people you are competing against will be pushing their speed, taking more risks- making "easy" shooting more difficult by the nature of how fast and creatively you can execute a stage plan. 

 

It's a positive in my mind that there are different aiming schemas and approaches to the sport based off of what division you are shooting. Getting rid of major/ minor scoring takes away from the diversity of the divisions and in my opinion makes the sport more dull. 

[IVC]

4 hours ago, RJH said:

But, I do hear many people talking about USPSA losing the practical aspect of the sport, so this could be something that actually brings some of that back.

 

 

LOL. It's a game. Even IDPA realizes it. 

[IVC]

The main difference between major and minor isn't even recoil - a light duty gun shooting +P is much closer to a competition major than to a heavy, bulky 9mm @ 128 PF. The main difference is the practical size of the target. Shooting minor is akin to smaller targets because each charlie counts as two major charlies. It changes the strategy of balancing speed and accuracy.

 

If you want to mess with scoring, modify rules to remove 9.2.3.2 and use Virginia count stages with steel and some harder paper shots. If you think that hard-open-hard transitions will mess with timing wait until you see a Virginia count stage. 

[Racinready300ex]

I think the idea that if you shoot major you don't need to be accurate is silly. For example didn't Sailer just shoot like 97% of the points over 30 stages at the WS? Why didn't someone just shoot faster than him not needing to be so accurate and be world champion? Because it's not as simple as people who don't shoot major or at least aren't good at it make it out to be. 

 

Now bumping minor maybe to 135 seems reasonable. It should be inline with off the shelf factory ammo.

[waktasz]

18 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I think the idea that if you shoot major you don't need to be accurate is silly. For example didn't Sailer just shoot like 97% of the points over 30 stages at the WS? Why didn't someone just shoot faster than him not needing to be so accurate and be world champion? Because it's not as simple as people who don't shoot major or at least aren't good at it make it out to be. 

 

Now bumping minor maybe to 135 seems reasonable. It should be inline with off the shelf factory ammo.

 

Some off the shelf 9 doesn't even make minor at 125 right now. All raising the pf would do is make a bunch of people at local matches have illegal ammo without even knowing it. The people shooting WWB aren't likely to own a chrono and they only care about pf when they go to their first section match and get zero'd

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 hours ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

Well. Not exactly. 

 

The most popular SKU's in the Ranger and Ranger Bonded LE lineup are:

RA9T : 145 PF

RA9124TP : 146 PF

RA9BA: 146 PF

RA9B: 146 PF

RA9B1: 147 PF. 

RA9TA is by far the "hottest" 9mm round available in the Win LE lineup. It's a 127gr +P+ and comes in at 158 PF. It's not super popular, and doesn't fly off the shelves. 

 

It's been said plenty, but no one (at a professional level) is concerned with "energy/stopping power" as it pertains to defensive handgun ammunition. They are concerned with how a round performs against FBI protocol in calibrated ballistic gelatin. A little simplified, but adequate penetration, reliable upset, and barrier performance are pretty much the sole variables by which defensive handgun ammunition is evaluated. 

 

With most defensive handgun rounds, the terminal difference in 140 PF and 160 PF is negligible, given that both rounds are operating within the optimal velocity window of the projectile, and achieve adequate penetration. 

 

Well said.  They guy you're answering lives in an make-believe universe where "muh stopping power" is a thing. 

 

SME's like Dr Gary Roberts would LOL at this guy's ideas of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

 

[Boomstick303]

13 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Some off the shelf 9 doesn't even make minor at 125 right now. All raising the pf would do is make a bunch of people at local matches have illegal ammo without even knowing it. The people shooting WWB aren't likely to own a chrono and they only care about pf when they go to their first section match and get zero'd

 

That was my point.  Besides what are you really gaining of lowering the floor of Minor from 125 to 135?  Sounds like a useless campaign.  

[ltdmstr]

31 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Well said.  They guy you're answering lives in an make-believe universe where "muh stopping power" is a thing. 

 

SME's like Dr Gary Roberts would LOL at this guy's ideas of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

 

 

So, another immature, troll comment.  Sorry I used an outdated term.  I also said energy and guess maybe should have said ballistic performance or whatever term the Youtube experts are using now.  Bottom line is, the more effective LEO loads are at the hotter end of the spectrum.  Like the ISP load, which is widely regarded as one of the best, and has been for a long time.  So, you can just keep digging while you try to make your point.  And keep shooting your 125 pf girlie loads, happy in the knowledge that you're on the cutting edge of the hot new thing.

[varminter22]

1 hour ago, IVC said:

 

LOL. It's a game. Even IDPA realizes it. 

Yep.  Virtually everyone realizes and recognizes it.  

 

Just as well remove the word "Practical" from the org's name.  Call it U. S. Shooting Games Ass'n (USSGA).  

[Nathanb]

I can’t wait for the warm weather to come back in so we can all get back to shooting and not creating threads on how we make things better 

[motosapiens]

9 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

I can’t wait for the warm weather to come back in so we can all get back to shooting and not creating threads on how we make things better trolling incessantly to get a reaction.

what I think you meant, lolz. We're shooting in the cold weather here in idaho, although last sunday got up to 50 degrees and sunny.