Limited Optics poll - yay or nay

[Chillywig]

Limited Optics poll - yay or nay

[YVK]

Most likely, "it depends". The idea itself is dumb to me but I'll shoot the division where the most talent is.

Edited January 4, 2023 by YVK

[rennD]

Atlas Athena purchased for this division. I am going to give it a try.

[MikeRussell]

Another "it depends"... if it's major minor scoring, I'll get a slide milled and try it out. If it's minor only, I'll shoot it with a CO gun to get classified.

[Zachjet]

Not the way it’s shaping out to be.  LO minor. Aka magwell CO

Edited January 4, 2023 by Zachjet

[sfinney]

Limited Optics is misleading. Should be Limited miner Optics. Or something else like SAO Optics. Agree. 
 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by sfinney

[pskys2]

20 hours ago, MikeRussell said:

Another "it depends"... if it's major minor scoring, I'll get a slide milled and try it out. If it's minor only, I'll shoot it with a CO gun to get classified.

Nah I'll get an adaptor for a bomar cut slide, put a vortex on it and download some 40 loads.  Or use my g34 mos.  Then play in the revolver off season.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

Definitely

 

Not going to help LO poach people away from CO

[Sarge]

On 1/3/2023 at 9:25 PM, sfinney said:

Limited Optics is misleading. Should be Limited miner Optics. Or something else like SAO Optics. Agree. 
 

 

LMAO  limited miner and optic 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Sarge

[perttime]

Bring back IPSC Modified (anything goes, as long as it fits in "The Box").

[Racinready300ex]

I'm shooting open minor until this is a thing. 

 

Actually I've shot limited guns with slide mounted dots in open years ago. I can't remember if I shot major or minor now. I used to load 40 minor for SS and IDPA and major for limited. 

[Racinready300ex]

8 hours ago, perttime said:

Bring back IPSC Modified (anything goes, as long as it fits in "The Box").

 

The problem with that is the stated goal seems to be give the new shooters showing up with SAO minor guns and optics a place to shoot without being in open. I am seeing these guys showing up at matches here and there. Most of them are full size guns and aren't going to fit a box. Making it a box means you'll either need to shoot a compact or get a custom gun built that'll cost more than a open gun and likely have a good advantage over someone shooting a compact. 

 

I think LO will likely take off in participation over the next couple of years. I don't think something like modified will probably struggle.

[shred]

Modified is awesome, but it is not an entry-level division.  Essentially nothing factory fits the box and is remotely competitive.  Some maker (CZ maybe) briefly did a factory Modified gun years ago, but for everyone else it's mill-and-hacksaw time.

 

It is perfect for engineer-types as it was designed to find the optimal pistol that fits within said ("practical") box, hearkening back to the origins of IPSC and "all guns compete together equally and we'll find out which one is the best". 

 

(When "best" turned out not to be 1911s in 45 ACP like the gurus wanted, then we got divisions and restrictions and dilution to what we have now.)

 

[pskys2]

15 hours ago, shred said:

Modified is awesome, but it is not an entry-level division.  Essentially nothing factory fits the box and is remotely competitive.  Some maker (CZ maybe) briefly did a factory Modified gun years ago, but for everyone else it's mill-and-hacksaw time.

 

It is perfect for engineer-types as it was designed to find the optimal pistol that fits within said ("practical") box, hearkening back to the origins of IPSC and "all guns compete together equally and we'll find out which one is the best". 

 

(When "best" turned out not to be 1911s in 45 ACP like the gurus wanted, then we got divisions and restrictions and dilution to what we have now.)

 

And ultimately led to some very good improvements.

Just dawned on me that without heads up, in the olden days and I was there too, we wouldn't have the improvements and accepted optics on handguns.

But without divisions we may not have seem enhancements of slide ride optics on carry type guns.

The public reaps the benefits of competition and the varying divisions help expand the improvements of different platforms.

[shred]

Yeah, competition has always been a crucible for new ideas.  I'd argue that Open was the revolutionary change for pistol-optics when it became obvious after a couple Nats that irons couldn't keep up with dots.  I don't remember the history of dots on ARs as well, but IIRC competition played a part there too.

 

Slide-dots like the RMR were a thing long before CO and all the manufacturers were showing optics-ready pistols at SHOT in 2016-17, but CO (after the hicap changes made it popular) got them more visibility and sales volume.

 

IPSC's stated goal with Production for a long time was "let the manufacturers duke it out and make better pistols", but it turned out the manufacturers really didn't care that much and it was left to the aftermarket to do most of the improvements which conflicted with their rules.  USPSAs approach for better or worse at least got the aftermarket going.

 

There needs to be a place for "relatively factory" guns to duke it out, but we aren't as likely to get revolutionary changes there if USPSA shooters are less than 1/5000th of annual handgun purchase volume.  That's why I'd like a 'fit this box and let the best one win' division that isn't Open.

 

CO may be in danger of finding out which big-window dots work best on factory 48-oz pistols, not so much carry dots on pocket guns.

[X5SigChris]

I can say, I’ll be getting classified in it. I won’t be buying a new gun for it though. If it turns out to be a blast, then I’ll consider it. But I don’t think (for me) the tool is what’s hindering my performance. 

[Joe4d]

I see zero reason for it to exist . Just 2 different divisions with the exact same guns that have zero competitive difference.
Next thing you know SC will have Limited, Production, and SS as different divisions  ,,, oh wait.

[Brooke]

If any of you believe all this "new idea"stuff is about you then you're misinformed. The gun industry drives all this. They can continually create equipment that satisfies a new division. Never mind it all fits into current divisions. They can sell more stuff and services to more people who are not serious about this. They don't practice and don't stick around. Here today gone tomorrow, revolving door. Then they find out its hard to be competitive in this sport they move to something cheaper and simpler. Meanwhile they try to create divisions that require no practice or talent. That doesn't work.

 

So they jump on something like steel challenge that has no mental challenge. Bring your 22's and rifles and shoot with the other hardly ables. If you screw up you throw it out. No problem. Doesn't take long to figure out that guys who can actually shoot come here and embarrass us so they quit. Steel Challenge is a glorified Glock match. In fact Glock matches are better except you can only shoot Glocks.

 

Unfortunately the Board thinks more divisions mean more members and more dues. More members means we need more ranges to make L1 matches possible and not last 12 hours. There isn't going be more ranges. There won't be enough new ones to replace those going broke or being run away by development. The overwhelming number of clubs do not own their ranges and are subject to the owners wishes. When a range goes under there usually is no substitute. The club gets nothing from the sale of land that they don't own so they can't continue. 

 

The limited ownership of firearms and ammo manufacturing industries know full well that shooting is a boom and bust business with even those businesses coming and going through the revolving doors. So during the recent boom that is subsiding, thank you Jesus, they would nor add any primer manufacturing. You can't blame them.

 

The firearms industry is behind all the talk about new divisions and changing division structure. The USPSA Board knows that but they salivate over the possibility of sponsorship deals making shooting the top sport on earth. It cant happen so don't fall for buying new equipment to fit into a new unnecessary division that just robs shooters from the current divisions. 

 

 

[sfinney]

I think all competitive hobbies and sports fall victim to arms races and buying your way to the top. While it really takes skill and practice to rise to the top, people observe that they old regulars who always win, also happen to have the most expensive toys and equipment. Those same people also will drive this perception home by being a bit snobbish about anyone not showing up with superior/ideal equipment, and belittle (knowingly or unknowingly) those competing in the wrong Division or not being "race ready".

 

SOAPBOX ON:

This race to the top with spending, while improving the breed, has killed many hobbies:

 

Examples:

Slot Cars - in the 60's/70's slot cars were cool - but as it was not a kids game, the older more financially able (and tech savvy) racers had the most expensive chassis, hound wound motors, and expensive tires and goo money could buy. Result - anyone who had not sunk hundreds into their slot car quit coming< as they PERCEIVED they could not compete with the $, rather than practicing harder.  The hobby died out.

 

RC Car Racing - for the 80's and 90's - see above, same situation. Now only first timers (who don't stick around) or old timers with $1000 batteries show up.

 

Shotgun (skeet/trap/SC) - while many do show up to shoot their old 870 or 3-gun shotgun at clay for practice, most people seem to avoid putting in the practice and regular competition as they see people with 5k or 10K shotguns busting all their clay (this is because they practiced, but the expensive gun is perceived as the advantage).

 

Any motor sport racing out of very lowest levels of SCCA - just can't afford it without sponsors.

 

SASS - Cowboy Shooting - originally the sport for old farts to show up and shoot their old collector guns, now just to get in the game costs several thousand $ as you need two tuned $500 to $1000 pistols, only an 1873 Uberti in .38 that has been short stroked and tuned (another $2000) and highly polished up and modded shotgun ($700 to $1000+). Plus all the holsters, loaders, carts, etc. I shot Cowboy in 1996/1997, had blast  - and took my fully costumed and excited 15 year old son to a match last week - and while we showed up with guns, everyone one there was nice enough to offer (whole looking down their noses at our gear) to loan us "competitive guns" so we could shoot the match. I told them we weren't there to be "competitive" in our first match - only to learn and to have fun. And while we did have some fun, and shot our own pace, can't help but sensing my son left feeling a little shamed we didn't have "nice guns". He had been very excited to shoot a match... we'll see if he wants to go back.

 

Limited / Open - I remember when having a Caspian or Para hicap was cutting edge (or if really lucky a Tripp (or STI/SVI) frame with a Springfield or Colt top end). Having any level of 2011 soon forced out almost all other pistols. Then you had to have a $5K pistol from a premium maker, perception = "no way you could be competitive with a 20 year old Edge".

 

Production/Carry Optics - here we go again. If we show up with anything less than Sig X5 Legion, or CZ Shadow 2, its quickly pointed out how you are not shooting a competitive gun, and should upgrade X amount of $ immediately, or buy a new one...... now Limited Optics wants to help make everyone decide 2011 SA triggers are the only way to go for optics now, and jump to the new Provisional Division?  Does anyone think the average person showing up with their stock SP-01 or Glock, or Beretta etc is going to understand they are not shooting against all the 2011s, or decide they picked the wrong sport and go away before they get hooked?

 

Sigh. We keep doing this to ourselves. Set some easy to comply with rules, for 3 or 4 Divisions, and lets go.

 

SOAPBOX OFF

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by sfinney
spelling

[shred]

Here we get an inflated sense of USPSAs importance to the gun industry.   The vast majority of it does not care what USPSA does.  Pop by SHOT next week and visit acres and acres of indifference.

 

Phil Strader's complaint on FB the other day about changing the compensator definition.  Do people think if SIG really had an 'in' with USPSA that would be how it went?   

CZ sells way more Shadow 2's in a single year than there are USPSA members total.  I doubt there's anyone in the industry with enough cash to swing things much one way or the other.  I'd guess it's member-driven for better or worse.

 

[JohnnyD]

Maybe?  I just bought a 40 cal Limited gun a few months ago so I'm kind of tapped out on funds for a bit...unless they do major then I might get a dovetail mount to give it a whirl and if I like it have a slide milled or another slide fitted.

[Racinready300ex]

4 hours ago, sfinney said:

I think all competitive hobbies and sports fall victim to arms races and buying your way to the top. While it really takes skill and practice to rise to the top, people observe that they old regulars who always win, also happen to have the most expensive toys and equipment. Those same people also will drive this perception home by being a bit snobbish about anyone not showing up with superior/ideal equipment, and belittle (knowingly or unknowingly) those competing in the wrong Division or not being "race ready".

 

SOAPBOX ON:

This race to the top with spending, while improving the breed, has killed many hobbies:

 

Examples:

Slot Cars - in the 60's/70's slot cars were cool - but as it was not a kids game, the older more financially able (and tech savvy) racers had the most expensive chassis, hound wound motors, and expensive tires and goo money could buy. Result - anyone who had not sunk hundreds into their slot car quit coming< as they PERCEIVED they could not compete with the $, rather than practicing harder.  The hobby died out.

 

RC Car Racing - for the 80's and 90's - see above, same situation. Now only first timers (who don't stick around) or old timers with $1000 batteries show up.

 

Shotgun (skeet/trap/SC) - while many do show up to shoot their old 870 or 3-gun shotgun at clay for practice, most people seem to avoid putting in the practice and regular competition as they see people with 5k or 10K shotguns busting all their clay (this is because they practiced, but the expensive gun is perceived as the advantage).

 

Any motor sport racing out of very lowest levels of SCCA - just can't afford it without sponsors.

 

SASS - Cowboy Shooting - originally the sport for old farts to show up and shoot their old collector guns, now just to get in the game costs several thousand $ as you need two tuned $500 to $1000 pistols, only an 1873 Uberti in .38 that has been short stroked and tuned (another $2000) and highly polished up and modded shotgun ($700 to $1000+). Plus all the holsters, loaders, carts, etc. I shot Cowboy in 1996/1997, had blast  - and took my fully costumed and excited 15 year old son to a match last week - and while we showed up with guns, everyone one there was nice enough to offer (whole looking down their noses at our gear) to loan us "competitive guns" so we could shoot the match. I told them we weren't there to be "competitive" in our first match - only to learn and to have fun. And while we did have some fun, and shot our own pace, can't help but sensing my son left feeling a little shamed we didn't have "nice guns". He had been very excited to shoot a match... we'll see if he wants to go back.

 

Limited / Open - I remember when having a Caspian or Para hicap was cutting edge (or if really lucky a Tripp (or STI/SVI) frame with a Springfield or Colt top end). Having any level of 2011 soon forced out almost all other pistols. Then you had to have a $5K pistol from a premium maker, perception = "no way you could be competitive with a 20 year old Edge".

 

Production/Carry Optics - here we go again. If we show up with anything less than Sig X5 Legion, or CZ Shadow 2, its quickly pointed out how you are not shooting a competitive gun, and should upgrade X amount of $ immediately, or buy a new one...... now Limited Optics wants to help make everyone decide 2011 SA triggers are the only way to go for optics now, and jump to the new Provisional Division?  Does anyone think the average person showing up with their stock SP-01 or Glock, or Beretta etc is going to understand they are not shooting against all the 2011s, or decide they picked the wrong sport and go away before they get hooked?

 

Sigh. We keep doing this to ourselves. Set some easy to comply with rules, for 3 or 4 Divisions, and lets go.

 

SOAPBOX OFF

 

 

 

This has been my one concern with allowing 2011's into CO. It's all perception, and it's not about guys like me that have been shooting for 10 years. It's how does the new guy who shows up to a club match with a glock perceive the sport. Just like the guy with a $2,500+ staccato doesn't want to shoot open against $5k custom guns the guy with the $500 glock might feel the same way shooting against that same staccato. To that guy it wont matter what Nils did, he going to see good shooters with more expensive gear and think he can never compete with out that same gear.

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, JohnnyD said:

Maybe?  I just bought a 40 cal Limited gun a few months ago so I'm kind of tapped out on funds for a bit...unless they do major then I might get a dovetail mount to give it a whirl and if I like it have a slide milled or another slide fitted.

 

You could always try that dovetail mount and just load minor. You'll be giving up 2 rounds in a mag, not really the end of the world. I can only remember doing 2 reloads on a single stage a couple of times in Limited. For the most part you'll be on even ground and it'll come down to you not the gear. 

[JohnnyD]

8 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

You could always try that dovetail mount and just load minor. You'll be giving up 2 rounds in a mag, not really the end of the world. I can only remember doing 2 reloads on a single stage a couple of times in Limited. For the most part you'll be on even ground and it'll come down to you not the gear. 

 

Very true...I much prefer to shoot 9 as the brass is everywhere and the projectiles are slightly cheaper...but it would take a lot of ammo to make up that difference if you think of the cost of buying brass and more expensive projectiles (about 5 cents a round total).

[Racinready300ex]

37 minutes ago, JohnnyD said:

 

Very true...I much prefer to shoot 9 as the brass is everywhere and the projectiles are slightly cheaper...but it would take a lot of ammo to make up that difference if you think of the cost of buying brass and more expensive projectiles (about 5 cents a round total).

 

40 minor can be stupid soft, I used to shoot it some in IDPA. I'd load 165's to about 138 pf in a CCP gun and it was totally reasonable to shoot. I'm sure at 128 pf they'd be bunny farts. And the lighter bullets reduce the cost some. Still going to be more.