Limited Optics poll - yay or nay

[shred]

Fun fact, 2011's will probably be a round down on mag capacity versus some other makes due to the extended mag taper.

 

[2MoreChains]

4 hours ago, shred said:

Here we get an inflated sense of USPSAs importance to the gun industry.   The vast majority of it does not care what USPSA does.  Pop by SHOT next week and visit acres and acres of indifference.

 

Phil Strader's complaint on FB the other day about changing the compensator definition.  Do people think if SIG really had an 'in' with USPSA that would be how it went?   

CZ sells way more Shadow 2's in a single year than there are USPSA members total.  I doubt there's anyone in the industry with enough cash to swing things much one way or the other.  I'd guess it's member-driven for better or worse.

 

 

This^.  If industry was leading this charge it would be more apparent.  

 

Everything I’m hearing is the proposed equipment and rulebook changes are member-driven or clean-up based on some things that are no longer deemed needed by the rules committee based on another change that occured in 2021.   

[EEH]

Maybe not dumb but NO

[Thomas H]

On 1/11/2023 at 4:25 AM, Brooke said:

So they jump on something like steel challenge that has no mental challenge. Bring your 22's and rifles and shoot with the other hardly ables. If you screw up you throw it out. No problem. Doesn't take long to figure out that guys who can actually shoot come here and embarrass us so they quit. Steel Challenge is a glorified Glock match. In fact Glock matches are better except you can only shoot Glocks.

 

It is interesting ready other people's take on the different shooting sports.  Every time I read something like this, I must admit that I think to myself "This is either someone who went to a SC match and got absolutely thrashed by the people who are good at the sport (rather like some tactical timmies or LEOs who come to a USPSA match, get thrashed, then never come back claiming that the sport isn't "real" or "it'll get you killed on the street" or something), or this is someone who has never shot an SC match and doesn't realize at all the level of practice and skill needed to shoot at the highest levels of the sport."

 

Attempting to denigrate a sport because how DARE people have fun at something you don't like or are bad at! is just....bad.

 

On 1/11/2023 at 8:56 AM, sfinney said:

Production/Carry Optics - here we go again. If we show up with anything less than Sig X5 Legion, or CZ Shadow 2, its quickly pointed out how you are not shooting a competitive gun, and should upgrade X amount of $ immediately, or buy a new one......

 

I confess to being curious as to at what clubs is this sort of thing "quickly pointed out". 

 

Then again, I think much of what was said in there has a grain of truth to it, but nonetheless was wildly, histrionically overstated.

 

It seems odd to me that so many people who are arguing various sides of the "SAO doesn't help" versus "SAO makes a difference" are missing the fact that putting in LO will give us a perfect chance to actually get good data on whether or not it is true.  As a provisional, it will literally give us an entire year's worth of data comparing SAO 2011s to Carry Optics guns, where the only real difference will be magwells. 

 

What's not to like in terms of seeing what will actually happen? 

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

It is interesting ready other people's take on the different shooting sports.  Every time I read something like this, I must admit that I think to myself "This is either someone who went to a SC match and got absolutely thrashed by the people who are good at the sport (rather like some tactical timmies or LEOs who come to a USPSA match, get thrashed, then never come back claiming that the sport isn't "real" or "it'll get you killed on the street" or something), or this is someone who has never shot an SC match and doesn't realize at all the level of practice and skill needed to shoot at the highest levels of the sport."

 

Attempting to denigrate a sport because how DARE people have fun at something you don't like or are bad at! is just....bad.

 

 

I confess to being curious as to at what clubs is this sort of thing "quickly pointed out". 

 

Then again, I think much of what was said in there has a grain of truth to it, but nonetheless was wildly, histrionically overstated.

 

It seems odd to me that so many people who are arguing various sides of the "SAO doesn't help" versus "SAO makes a difference" are missing the fact that putting in LO will give us a perfect chance to actually get good data on whether or not it is true.  As a provisional, it will literally give us an entire year's worth of data comparing SAO 2011s to Carry Optics guns, where the only real difference will be magwells. 

 

What's not to like in terms of seeing what will actually happen? 

Because that data has been around for decades already.  Production/Limited 10/SS in USPSA, Stryker guns performance in limited, IDPA SSP and ESP...
I remember we used to make of fun of IDPA for its goat rodeo rule set, but even they figured out the trigger thing.
DIviding guns by trigger became foolish when striker guns hit the market.

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

this is someone who has never shot an SC match and doesn't realize at all the level of practice and skill needed to shoot at the highest levels of the sport."

 

I have this thought as well.  People (especially USPSA shooters) trash IDPA all of the time.  My frustration with IDPA is the rules that leave some rules up to SO judgement makes for less than desirable results in my eyes.  That's it.  I do not trash IDPA shooters.  It is a different game.  I have respect for people who shoot IDPA just as much as any other shooting sport.  It is not for me, but that does not mean it means a lot to others.  Same goes for SC.  

 

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

It seems odd to me that so many people who are arguing various sides of the "SAO doesn't help" versus "SAO makes a difference" are missing the fact that putting in LO will give us a perfect chance to actually get good data on whether or not it is true.  As a provisional, it will literally give us an entire year's worth of data comparing SAO 2011s to Carry Optics guns, where the only real difference will be magwells. 

 

Exactly.  Let the data speak for itself.

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Boomstick303

[JM_]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

It is interesting ready other people's take on the different shooting sports.  Every time I read something like this, I must admit that I think to myself "This is either someone who went to a SC match and got absolutely thrashed by the people who are good at the sport (rather like some tactical timmies or LEOs who come to a USPSA match, get thrashed, then never come back claiming that the sport isn't "real" or "it'll get you killed on the street" or something), or this is someone who has never shot an SC match and doesn't realize at all the level of practice and skill needed to shoot at the highest levels of the sport."

 

Attempting to denigrate a sport because how DARE people have fun at something you don't like or are bad at! is just....bad.

 

 

I confess to being curious as to at what clubs is this sort of thing "quickly pointed out". 

 

Then again, I think much of what was said in there has a grain of truth to it, but nonetheless was wildly, histrionically overstated.

 

It seems odd to me that so many people who are arguing various sides of the "SAO doesn't help" versus "SAO makes a difference" are missing the fact that putting in LO will give us a perfect chance to actually get good data on whether or not it is true.  As a provisional, it will literally give us an entire year's worth of data comparing SAO 2011s to Carry Optics guns, where the only real difference will be magwells. 

 

What's not to like in terms of seeing what will actually happen? 

I held my tounge when I read that comment from Brooke SC is literally 90% a mental game after mastering the speed aspect. 

[2011BLDR]

On 1/11/2023 at 1:28 PM, shred said:

Fun fact, 2011's will probably be a round down on mag capacity versus some other makes due to the extended mag taper.

 

That's a big" NO" all of my 141's do 23 +1 rounds  ( 1st gen SVI & MBX)....however as long as we keep the 8 round exposer  & 32 round per stage rules it is irrelevant Open, Lim, CO & LO will all be 1 reload max needed per  stage & PCC will stay at zero(excluding classifers).

[Racinready300ex]

5 hours ago, 2011BLDR said:

That's a big" NO" all of my 141's do 23 +1 rounds  ( 1st gen SVI & MBX)....however as long as we keep the 8 round exposer  & 32 round per stage rules it is irrelevant Open, Lim, CO & LO will all be 1 reload max needed per  stage & PCC will stay at zero(excluding classifers).

 

Pretty sure there are a couple options to get 24+1 in current CO guns, so your 23+1 is a big YES it's down a round. 

 

But I agree that wont matter 99% of the time. 

[sfinney]

22 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

 

 

 

I confess to being curious as to at what clubs is this sort of thing "quickly pointed out". 

 

Then again, I think much of what was said in there has a grain of truth to it, but nonetheless was wildly, histrionically overstated.

 

I mean "quickly pointed out" in the most helpful friendly way possible, to let people know how to "improve".

 

• "Hi, welcome - thanks for coming. We are going to place you in Open because you brought your G19 with a magwell on it.... "
• "First time huh? A Beretta with stock 15 round mags is just not competitive in Limited, so we are going to place you in Production and you have to download to 10 rounds"
• "Nice CZ75 - you know, the new Shadow 2 shoots flatter and is the gun everyone shoots now, if you decide to upgrade"
• "No one shoots Production anymore, you may want to put an Optic on your gun and buy some 140mm 23+ round mags if you want to have fun and actually shoot against other people"."
• "Wow, nice classic Wilson/Les Baer/Nighthawk/Fill in the Blank - you know, Single stack..... is just not very well represented here. Do you have any other guns?"
• "You need to think about getting a G17 or G34, your G19 is great for carry, but won't be competitive against full size guns"

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

17 minutes ago, sfinney said:

I mean "quickly pointed out" in the most helpful friendly way possible, to let people know how to "improve".

 

• "Hi, welcome - thanks for coming. We are going to place you in Open because you brought your G19 with a magwell on it.... "
• "First time huh? A Beretta with stock 15 round mags is just not competitive in Limited, so we are going to place you in Production and you have to download to 10 rounds"
• "Nice CZ75 - you know, the new Shadow 2 shoots flatter and is the gun everyone shoots now, if you decide to upgrade"
• "No one shoots Production anymore, you may want to put an Optic on your gun and buy some 140mm 23+ round mags if you want to have fun and actually shoot against other people"."
• "Wow, nice classic Wilson/Les Baer/Nighthawk/Fill in the Blank - you know, Single stack..... is just not very well represented here. Do you have any other guns?"
• "You need to think about getting a G17 or G34, your G19 is great for carry, but won't be competitive against full size guns"

 

 

 

I'm sure I've heard variations of most of that. I've probably even said some of it. If someone asks what to bring, I'm going to ask what they have and try to point them in a direction that makes the most sense. 

 

I jokingly tell every production shooter they're dumb and need to just get a optic already. But you can't help some people. 

[cheers623]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Pretty sure there are a couple options to get 24+1 in current CO guns, so your 23+1 is a big YES it's down a round. 

 

But I agree that wont matter 99% of the time. 

All of my MBX 140s hold 24 rounds +1 in the chamber. I hadn’t heard of people NOT getting 24 in a few years…YMMV

[RJH]

I would love to see a poll in a few years where all the people that said they would never try limited optics in this poll were asked if they'd ever tried it. I bet if they were honest it'll be at least 50% of the people that said that they would never try it do

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, RJH said:

I would love to see a poll in a few years where all the people that said they would never try limited optics in this poll were asked if they'd ever tried it. I bet if they were honest it'll be at least 50% of the people that said that they would never try it do

 

I opposed CO and PCC and I'm now classified in both. I've shot 2 seasons in CO and one in PCC. I was also initially opposed to LO as you I'm sure know. But, now I'm on board and have repurposed a old gun I wasn't shooting to be a LO gun. I'm registered for a Area match and my state championship in Open-minor. All in, if it never happens oh well. 

 

[pskys2]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

I would love to see a poll in a few years where all the people that said they would never try limited optics in this poll were asked if they'd ever tried it. I bet if they were honest it'll be at least 50% of the people that said that they would never try it do

Yep have to laugh Lo is bringing out the same comments as Co did.  And now it's the#1 division.  

[Boomstick303]

Limited Optics????

 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I opposed CO and PCC and I'm now classified in both. I've shot 2 seasons in CO and one in PCC. I was also initially opposed to LO as you I'm sure know. But, now I'm on board and have repurposed a old gun I wasn't shooting to be a LO gun. I'm registered for a Area match and my state championship in Open-minor. All in, if it never happens oh well. 

 

 

I was the same way back when carry-ops and PCC was brought up. I also now have a carry outs gun although I never have got completely classified in it, I think I've shot two classifiers as so far I just don't love a DOT. I did get classified in PCC, and then I sold my PCC LOL.

 

I think in a couple of weeks I'm going to begin my open minor with a limited optics gun journey and really start trying to learn to shoot with a DOT well, instead of just being a hack like I am with one now

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I was the same way back when carry-ops and PCC was brought up. I also now have a carry outs gun although I never have got completely classified in it, I think I've shot two classifiers as so far I just don't love a DOT. I did get classified in PCC, and then I sold my PCC LOL.

 

I think in a couple of weeks I'm going to begin my open minor with a limited optics gun journey and really start trying to learn to shoot with a DOT well, instead of just being a hack like I am with one now

 

Give it a couple months it'll start to click a lot more. After a while I didn't even want to shoot irons anymore. Even my carry gun has a dot on it now. 

 

 

The best thing about PCC was when you go to a major and the RO reads the WSB and asks if there are any PCC's and you get to raise your hand. And they kind of sigh and read your start position. This makes it all worth it. I love making peoples day better. 

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

The best thing about PCC was when you go to a major and the RO reads the WSB and asks if there are any PCC's and you get to raise your hand. And they kind of sigh and read your start position. This makes it all worth it. I love making peoples day better. 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Boomstick303

[RJH]

14 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Give it a couple months it'll start to click a lot more. After a while I didn't even want to shoot irons anymore. Even my carry gun has a dot on it now. 

 

 

The best thing about PCC was when you go to a major and the RO reads the WSB and asks if there are any PCC's and you get to raise your hand. And they kind of sigh and read your start position. This makes it all worth it. I love making peoples day better. 

 

Lol that is great. Also a plus would be to talk s*** when you when a stage in your squad 

[Racinready300ex]

15 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Lol that is great. Also a plus would be to talk s*** when you when a stage in your squad 

 

Gotta talk s#!t, don't let me come to your pistol match and beat you with a rifle. When ever someone asked the round count my reply was something to the effect of who cares I have 40 round mags. And point out how easy the hard shots are, just don't miss after saying the 40 yard mini popper is easy because rifle. Everyone will give you s#!t, may as well have fun with it. 

 

For a while my pcc had 3 dots on it. That confused people. But, pcc is kind or missing something on a lot of our stages. The best match I shot, a lot of pistol shooters complained it was to hard. Even then, part of me wished I shot CO.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

23 hours ago, sfinney said:

• "Hi, welcome - thanks for coming. We are going to place you in Open because you brought your G19 with a magwell on it.... "
• "First time huh? A Beretta with stock 15 round mags is just not competitive in Limited, so we are going to place you in Production and you have to download to 10 rounds"
• "Nice CZ75 - you know, the new Shadow 2 shoots flatter and is the gun everyone shoots now, if you decide to upgrade"
• "No one shoots Production anymore, you may want to put an Optic on your gun and buy some 140mm 23+ round mags if you want to have fun and actually shoot against other people"."
• "Wow, nice classic Wilson/Les Baer/Nighthawk/Fill in the Blank - you know, Single stack..... is just not very well represented here. Do you have any other guns?"
• "You need to think about getting a G17 or G34, your G19 is great for carry, but won't be competitive against full size guns"

 

Outside of the first point, which is a statement of fact supported by our rules, the rest of that is stuff I've never heard in nearly 170 matches across five states over the last 48 months.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[shred]

We see excited new shooters show up 3 matches later sporting shiny new current-hotness gear.  With luck some of that is because they shot what they had and didn't go buy a bunch of crap before their first match (I started with a Glock 23 and Uncle-Mikes holster in the 1990s following this advice.  Got me hooked long enough to get some more appropriate gear). 

 

Shooters do like showing off their fancy blasters to new shooters, even if what said noob has is perfectly adequate for their first year or two, so there is a lot of pressure to buy the new hotness when dry-fire and ammo would have better payback.

[sfinney]

On 1/14/2023 at 8:28 AM, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Outside of the first point, which is a statement of fact supported by our rules, the rest of that is stuff I've never heard in nearly 170 matches across five states over the last 48 months.

 

 

Wow, 4 whole years? Not comparing sizes, but -  I have been shooting USPSA since 1994.   Locals, mids and majors. I tried to count it up but let's say at least 8 states, that I remember. So maybe I have a broader experience set than you have experienced in the last few years. Or maybe I have just been at the wrong clubs.

 

But these comments do happen, from time to time, towards new shooters, whether they asked for the advice, or people were just trying to be "helpful". 

 

Or maybe I'm just misremembering. 

 

[sfinney]

On 1/13/2023 at 8:55 AM, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'm sure I've heard variations of most of that. I've probably even said some of it. If someone asks what to bring, I'm going to ask what they have and try to point them in a direction that makes the most sense. 

 

I jokingly tell every production shooter they're dumb and need to just get a optic already. But you can't help some people. 

Thanks for verifying you have heard or said similar. A previous poster implies it can never happen in his vast experience set.

 

And as stated - people are trying to be helpful, and spare people pain, and guide them on the equipment they will probably need to be competitive. But - most new shooters are not "competitive". They are here to have fun, and learn. Unless they ask for advice on is my Taurus/Beretta clone with 15 round mags is competitive in Limited or not....  let 'em shoot. They'll figure it out. Its not the equipment holding them back - yet. As skills improve, the ones that want to stay will improve their guns or buy new ones. (I mean really, who doesn't need an excuse to buy a new gun??) 

 

I mean, while not sure we need another Division and I don't really feel a need to by a 9mm "Limited Optic" gun - but it is an excuse to try out a Prodigy (as a project) and make it work. Win/Win.

 

Each to his own, I'll just show up and play whatever the rules. I might even smile a little bit while doing so, even if I'm not competitive (anymore). As the joker said - "Why so serious?"

Edited January 16, 2023 by sfinney