You got your wish

[Jim Watson]

15 is seldom truly better than 10.  

Make it 20 so they don't get their poor wittle bwains all confoosed by having to reload on a Medium length stage.

 

The Dot must be served.  I was one of three iron sight shooters at last nights USPSA Indoor and the other two were casual or beginning shooters, everybody else had a dot.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Jim Watson

[CC3D]

6 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Participation numbers don't seem to bear that out.

How can you assume that when there is no valid division for people to shoot high cap minor ions in? 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 minute ago, CC3D said:

How can you assume that when there is no valid division for people to shoot high cap minor ions in? 

 

Does Limited not allow minor pf now?

[Johnny_Chimpo]

5 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

15 is seldom truly better than 10.

 

You must miss a lot to not see the difference

[CC3D]

11 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Does Limited not allow minor pf now?

People want to be competitive in the division they shoot. Nobody wants to shoot 40. 

 

Lets be honest though, what percent of limited shooters right now are shooting major vs minor? And how many of those minor shooters would instantly switch to production if it allowed 141mm magazines? I'd say pretty much all of them. 

 

So yes, it would kill limited participation but there is absolutely a market for a division that allows high cap minor iron guns to be competitive. 

[deerslayer]

1 minute ago, CC3D said:

Lets be honest though, what percent of limited shooters right now are shooting major vs minor? And how many of those minor shooters would instantly switch to production if it allowed 141mm magazines? I'd say pretty much all of them. 

How many current lim-minor shooters use guns that would be legal in Production?

[mikeg1005]

17 minutes ago, CC3D said:

People want to be competitive in the division they shoot. Nobody wants to shoot 40. 

 

Lets be honest though, what percent of limited shooters right now are shooting major vs minor? And how many of those minor shooters would instantly switch to production if it allowed 141mm magazines? I'd say pretty much all of them. 

 

So yes, it would kill limited participation but there is absolutely a market for a division that allows high cap minor iron guns to be competitive. 

 

The market you speak of went to CO already, its why production is dying.

 

All you're going to do is take limited and make it competitive with 9mm instead of 40.  So you've essentially added nothing to USPSA other than making people change all their equipment to shoot the exact same division. 

 

14 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

How many current lim-minor shooters use guns that would be legal in Production?

 

Only the ones that are newbies or weekend warriors that don't want to reload after 10rds and have 0 concern about being competitive in USPSA.... and Nils, but he doesn't count.  

[deerslayer]

9 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

Only the ones that are newbies or weekend warriors that don't want to reload after 10rds and have 0 concern about being competitive in USPSA.... and Nils, but he doesn't count.  

Right, I don’t see many 9mm Production shooters who simply added 140 mags in Limited very often.  

[twodownzero]

17 hours ago, ranger said:

I remember when "Production" started and it seemed to be an opportunity to shoot "production" guns that were available at almost every local gun store. As always, it quickly evolved into a new series of "race guns" that met the definition of "production".

 

I don't think it evolved that "quickly."  It was doing away with the visual modifications rule and destroying the weight limit through approving new very heavy guns and allowing lights that ruined Production.  Well, that and Welfare Open, but everyone knows my position on that.

 

55 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

Participation numbers don't seem to bear that out.

 

They don't bear that out now, because they fundamentally have changed the sport to leave low cap shooters behind.  When Production actually had a set of rules where an actual production firearm was competitive, and before these other ridiculous changes, Production was one of the most popular divisions.

[erwos]

They should bump major PF to 45 caliber minimum in non-Open divisions. I don't mean that in the two world wars sense, I mean that in the "that's the minimum diameter where there's a reasonable trade-off for the mag cap vs scoring difference". I know this isn't really possible due to IPSC and equipment investment concerns, but I think it would be better for the sport long-term.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

49 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

They don't bear that out now, because they fundamentally have changed the sport to leave low cap shooters behind.  When Production actually had a set of rules where an actual production firearm was competitive, and before these other ridiculous changes, Production was one of the most popular divisions.

 

Everything you talk about is the past.  Nobody cares about the past.

 

Signed/

A former production shooter

[CC3D]

1 hour ago, deerslayer said:

How many current lim-minor shooters use guns that would be legal in Production?

 

nearly all of 'em lol 

 

there's like 5-10 of them at my club. They're usually the new guys and gals shooting striker fired guns

 

1 hour ago, mikeg1005 said:

All you're going to do is take limited and make it competitive with 9mm instead of 40.  So you've essentially added nothing to USPSA other than making people change all their equipment to shoot the exact same division. 

 

I dont see where people need to change their gear at all.. they'd just change from lim minor to prod and drop the magwell if they have it

[twodownzero]

3 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Everything you talk about is the past.  Nobody cares about the past.

 

Signed/

A former production shooter

 

Sad, but true.

[pskys2]

5 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Everything you talk about is the past.  Nobody cares about the past.

 

Signed/

A former production shooter

Those that ignore the past are destined to repeat it.  But those who live in the past are dying (never advance).

[motosapiens]

20 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

I'm still not sure why USPSA diverged so far from the original intent of the division. While it's true that there were some minor changes in the IPSC division, it's still essentially an out-of-the-box production gun.

because what you think of as the 'original intent' sucked, and was not as fun or interesting as the way it turned out. fwiw, lots of folks still shoot something pretty close to 'out of the box'.  I only replaced the mainspring and recoil spring in my shadow2.

[motosapiens]

6 hours ago, twodownzero said:

They don't bear that out now, because they fundamentally have changed the sport to leave low cap shooters behind.  When Production actually had a set of rules where an actual production firearm was competitive, and before these other ridiculous changes, Production was one of the most popular divisions.

You have it backwards. the sport is still hella fun for low-cap shooters. I still actually shoot USPSA and I attended the last 2 locap nationals, and there was lots of fun and lots good shooting. Nothing about the sport has changed..... people just decided that higher capacity with an actual production firearm (and a dot) is way way more fun than 10 rounds.

[louu]

What about a division for people that identify as cats and shoot cans of wasp and hornet spray? 

[happygunner77]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

You have it backwards. the sport is still hella fun for low-cap shooters. I still actually shoot USPSA and I attended the last 2 locap nationals, and there was lots of fun and lots good shooting. Nothing about the sport has changed..... people just decided that higher capacity with an actual production firearm (and a dot) is way way more fun than 10 rounds.

 

They won't get it and never will. 

[rowdyb]

Well I look forward to the announcement the end of January 

[twodownzero]

8 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

You have it backwards. the sport is still hella fun for low-cap shooters. I still actually shoot USPSA and I attended the last 2 locap nationals, and there was lots of fun and lots good shooting. Nothing about the sport has changed..... people just decided that higher capacity with an actual production firearm (and a dot) is way way more fun than 10 rounds.

 

What do you want me to say, that I don't agree?  I've been to matches since the rule changes, and the trajectory is not good.  Nor is it enjoyable to be the only low cap shooter on a squad.  If you want the game to be all dots, then so be it.  Make fun of me if you want, I'm not playing.

 

USPSA has always had a reputation of high barriers to entry, that you needed a "race gun" to compete.  Production and SS were once the antidotes to that.  Now they're a distant also-ran.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

15 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

USPSA has always had a reputation of high barriers to entry, that you needed a "race gun" to compete.  Production and SS were once the antidotes to that.  Now they're a distant also-ran.

 

And yet the number of new faces that stay is stronger than ever in my section

[GrumpyOne]

To paraphrase...

 

We choose to go to shoot Production in this decade with 10 round limits, and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win, and the others, too.

 

I can see both sides. While shooting Production with 15 round mags (or mag capacity) would be fun, no doubt, you lose something that you had shooting the same division with 10 round mags. You lose some of the stage planning, you lose more mag changes, you lose some of the mental aspect of it. Sure, there is still going to be all of that with a 15 round mag limit, but possibly cut in half. Some of the challenge will be gone. With 10 round limits, it drove a myriad of different choices of how to shoot a long stage, you saw competitors shooting stages that you never thought of. With 15 rounds, I suspect that those choices will be pared down.

 

Everybody wants to go fast, and the easiest path to fastness (is that a word?) is to change the rules to eliminate time consuming mag changes.

 

With that being said, I do agree with changing the mag limit to 15, not necessarily to go faster, but to update the sport to where it is compatible in today's world. 

 

Had USPSA started in the late 19th / early 20th century, would those shooting cap and ball revolvers shunned advancement in capacity?

 

First and foremost, firearms designers have always wanted to get more capacity, from the first guns to have multiple barrels, to having more rounds loaded in the same barrel, to developing a rotating cylinder, to a tube fed magazine, to a box magazine, for faster following shots or just more shots. 

 

Isn't it time we updated the division to reflect what is most common in todays world?

 

 

[HCH]

Stick production, SS, and L10 together so there may be more than 6 people in a division at a level 2. 
 

call it lo-cap and score it 10 rounds, minor PF. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by HCH

[2MoreChains]

5 hours ago, GrumpyOne said:

To paraphrase...

 

We choose to go to shoot Production in this decade with 10 round limits, and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win, and the others, too.

 

I can see both sides. While shooting Production with 15 round mags (or mag capacity) would be fun, no doubt, you lose something that you had shooting the same division with 10 round mags. You lose some of the stage planning, you lose more mag changes, you lose some of the mental aspect of it. Sure, there is still going to be all of that with a 15 round mag limit, but possibly cut in half. Some of the challenge will be gone. With 10 round limits, it drove a myriad of different choices of how to shoot a long stage, you saw competitors shooting stages that you never thought of. With 15 rounds, I suspect that those choices will be pared down.

 

Everybody wants to go fast, and the easiest path to fastness (is that a word?) is to change the rules to eliminate time consuming mag changes.

 

With that being said, I do agree with changing the mag limit to 15, not necessarily to go faster, but to update the sport to where it is compatible in today's world. 

 

Had USPSA started in the late 19th / early 20th century, would those shooting cap and ball revolvers shunned advancement in capacity?

 

First and foremost, firearms designers have always wanted to get more capacity, from the first guns to have multiple barrels, to having more rounds loaded in the same barrel, to developing a rotating cylinder, to a tube fed magazine, to a box magazine, for faster following shots or just more shots. 

 

Isn't it time we updated the division to reflect what is most common in todays world?

 

 

 

You had me when you started paraphrasing JFK.  One of my favorite speeches.  

[motosapiens]

16 hours ago, twodownzero said:

USPSA has always had a reputation of high barriers to entry, that you needed a "race gun" to compete.  Production and SS were once the antidotes to that.  Now they're a distant also-ran.

that's not because of rule changes, that's because people simply prefer something else. As a part-time dedicated singlestack shooter, I'm sad that vinyl records aren't a thing anymore too. The world moves on whether or not we like it.

 

It is worth noting however, that my CO rig including optic is about the same price as my SS gun.