Limited Optics

[RJH]

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

lol, I know you are just trolling and yanking people's chains, because it is not plausible that anyone would believe this nonsense.  normal people may look at a fantasy division for local matches where there is little heat in their own division, or where they have an idea of how they *should* stack up against buddies in other divisions. I personally totally ignore it at a major match, because it's not a thing. I should ignore trolls too, because they're not a thing.....

 

I have been to level 2 matches before practicscore happened that posted the overalls, but yeah they are more useful at locals

[RJH]

4 hours ago, deerslayer said:

 

 

 

 

Good luck out there today and be safe.  

 

Thanks, it was a good match, wish I would have shot a little better, but that seems to be how it always is lol

[RJH]

3 hours ago, outerlimits said:

Nope…comped.

 Gotcha

[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Not really, but I think that is where we are headed anyway, and I do believe 40 is a lost cause. Heck I shot major today, 45 no less, in limited with a 10 round gun

meh.... 45 is still around and popular(-ish) in competiton after being obsolete for 40+ years.... I don't think 40 is going anywhere.... at least not nearly as soon as the lgbtq+ advocates would like. People who don't like major should just shoot minor and enjoy it.

[RobW]

On 12/30/2022 at 2:25 PM, RJH said:

This thread seems to have experienced some drift. 

 

Back on topic: it appears that Springfield prodigy plates are shipping. My order finally went to "awaiting shipment." One step closer to limited optics

 

Just got my Trijicon pattern this week. Off-topic note: contact Trijicon and they will send you the correct length screws for an SRO gratis.

[Marven1999]

If there's no major power factor they're basically completely catering to staccados. Most people spending serious money on a 2011 are just going to open. That also means everyone with a 40 that they shoot in limited can't just get their slide milled. 

[Marven1999]

There's probably a ton of people with a few 40 caliber limited guns that they would love to get mailed for an optic and shoot limited optics major. By making it minor only they're not going to get enough representation to keep it going. 

[RJH]

Don't know if any of y'all do Facebook at all, but Phil S made a post on this subject and Rob L commented on it. Both are worth a read imo

[mlmiller1]

Tongue in cheek here but why don't they just let each competitor have his own division?  That way we all win & everyone gets a first place win.  Hahaha.  Just how many divisions do we need? At most local matches in this area, you wind up with only a few people in each division.   Let's water that down some more.... 

[SufferInSilence]

Y’all take the survey and keep LO around.  
 

https://uspsa.org/surveys

 

 

[Balakay]

9 hours ago, Marven1999 said:

If there's no major power factor they're basically completely catering to staccados. Most people spending serious money on a 2011 are just going to open. That also means everyone with a 40 that they shoot in limited can't just get their slide milled. 

It is too bad that there is a rule against shooting .40 minor

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Only that your minus 3 rounds. 

[obsessiveshooter]

2 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

Only that your minus 3 rounds. 

Exactly, those 3 rounds end up being very precious on a lot of stages I see.  Enough so that a serious competitor wouldn't consider 40 minor. 

Edited January 1, 2023 by obsessiveshooter
added content

[GJM]

45 minutes ago, RJH said:

Don't know if any of y'all do Facebook at all, but Phil S made a post on this subject and Rob L commented on it. Both are worth a read imo

Link?

[obsessiveshooter]

1 minute ago, GJM said:

Link?

how about a screenshot, for those of us that that don't InstaTwitFace.

[Sinister4]

,found my answer  

Edited January 1, 2023 by Sinister4

[RJH]

Just now, obsessiveshooter said:

how about a screenshot, for those of us that that don't InstaTwitFace.

5 minutes ago, GJM said:

Link?

 

3 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

how about a screenshot, for those of us that that don't InstaTwitFace.

 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0owMejiWh5dgRwTKHc17CWyp3jBs2UXXa5BvyyzfaQ6RjtxsLr5DG2GAf8DW1jgFal&id=100063583876247&mibextid=Nif5oz

 

Here is a link, hopefully it works. I fear technology lol. I don't get along with pictures on this website so a link is all I can hopefully do LOL. Maybe somebody else can screenshot it

[Fishbreath]

Here's the core of it. He likes the four-division idea, which is massively unfair to revolvers (as are any division consolidation proposals that lump them in with semi-autos) but otherwise fairly inoffensive, I think?

 

Of course, once you pull out PCC and revolver into separate divisions, as they need to be for competitive equity (and I will fight you on this if you disagree, because frankly, I'm right), it's just the Prod/L10/SS 8maj/10min proposal. I don't have strong opinions about that, but it seems like a toss-up at best if the people who actually shoot Prod/SS want it.

[Boomstick303]

14 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

how about a screenshot, for those of us that that don't InstaTwitFace.

 

Phil Strader

13h  · 

I just sent these two emails to the USPSA BOD and DNROI. Happy New Year!

Hello all,

I hope that you all will take a few minutes to hear my opinions about everything that is happening with the rule changes. There are too many to address, but I will cover two that should be considered.

The BOD has gotten a reputation of not listening to its members, but this reputation has been perpetrated by the very vocal 5%, IMO. I still want to believe that the decisions that are being made by the BOD are for the betterment of the sport and the industry more so than at the whims of 1500 very vocal and never satisfied members.

 

With that said, in the case of adding Limited Optics, I understand where a lot of this pressure is coming from, as several representatives of companies that would benefit from this have reached out to me. Adding yet another division is NOT the answer. IDPA should be a perfect example of what not to do with countless divisions that confuse potential new shooters. The days of SAO being a significant (if any) advantage over custom striker or DA/SA pistols are over. The last 3 winners of the Limited Division championship won with STRIKER pistols…the Open National Championship was nearly won with a Beretta. With that said, I would suggest that we stop believing that there’s enough of an advantage to create a division just for it.

The key to new membership and growth is to piss off a small number of existing members (like me). Here are my suggestions to recalibrate USPSA and to make it accommodating and less confusing for more new shooters:

 

OPEN

- Keep as-is. I would normally suggest making this minor only, but that wouldn’t be necessary if the other changes below are met.

LIMITED

- Keep as-is, but make it minor only. Production shooters who want higher capacity could compete here without dealing with 40SW.

OPTICS

- Carry Optics as is, but allow magwells and Allow single-action pistols. I was initially against this, but the SAO advantage is so minimal, that it wouldn’t make a difference…as Nils, Bob Vogel, Luke Cao, Mason Lane, and others will prove.

CLASSIC

- 45oz weight limit. Production, Single Stack, and Revolvers allowed. Magwells allowed for single stack only. Minor - 10rd mags. Major - 8rd mags. All revolvers scored as MAJOR even with 125PF.

Yes, USPSA members (like me) with a LOT of 40SW’s would not be happy, but we’re not going to shoot IDPA in protest. If we’ve invested in Limited equipment, we’re invested in the organization. We will either shoot up our major ammo, load minor, or shoot whatever 9mm production or 3-gun pistol we have in the new Limited.

 

I know this is a radical change, but simpler is better. This would keep your matches from being watered down (like Production Optics Light at World Shoot).

If you’ve made it this far in this message, thank you for reading and thank you for serving USPSA I know what’s involved, and sometimes the decisions that need to be made aren’t easy.

Take care, and Happy New Year,

Sorry, I forgot the 2nd thing.

If USPSA had not allowed compensators, extended basepads, or red-dot sights in the early days of competitive shooting, I wonder what would’ve happened to the sport? USPSA has always been the proving ground for new products, new technology, and better performing equipment, but it appears that this has changed.

Changing the compensator definition is a direct attack on that very ingenuity that made USPSA what it is today. Sig Sauer found a way to make a pistol shoot flatter and faster without the use of a compensator through superior technology and end-user creativity. Why is this being punished?? The P365 Spectre Comp and XMacro have been our best selling pistols to date, and customers want more.

 

I would strongly suggest that USPSA and the BOD reconsider this re-definition of a compensator. Please give the firearms industry the freedom to improve the products that will continue to grow our end-user base and the organization of USPSA.

Phil Strader

 

Rob Leatham's Response

 

Some of what Phil says I’d agree with. Some not. 

The difference between a 59 oz striker fired 125 pf gun and a 1911 style firing mechanism 59 oz 125 pf gun is insignificant. 

I believe porting and venting of gasses in any manner constitutes compensating. 

Apply the usage to whatever division you like. There are sensible arguments to be made for and against. 

That the SS division is now the lightest weight limit and most compact division is silly. 

We no longer have a practical division. 

The 125 PF thing is a holdover from a time when we wanted .38 special revolvers of questionable strength to be able to make minor. 

I still believe in power in the real world.

 

The problem is if we now consider the 9x19 round to be the standard and sufficient it should be at a power level commonly encountered. Which is not 125. 125 is silly. 

I’d be on board with a single PF if it were relative to the ammo used for duty or defense. 140-150 is more appropriate. 

However as we turn the sport more and more into a video game rather than a martial skills training and testing ground, I’m sure the masses will feel different. 

There are those that think we should shoot .22’s. 

Either way, Phil Strader should die…

[Jim Watson]

Like most, I have my own ideas about what would be a logical, Practical, arrangement of Divisions, but then I realized that it would not change what I actually do, so why expend keystrokes.

 

I am your basic standard Limited Participant and I don't know anything that would be an incentive to change to a different Division, real, proposed, or imaginary.  

[obsessiveshooter]

Well, I think Phil's ideas are just plain bad.  Anyone who spent thousands on a .40 Limited gun would be so pissed at the Organization that they would likely move on.  

[mikeAZ]

About the Revolver optics buzz... Why not just leave the iron sight/optic sight issue die, BECAUSE if the optic sight IS superior?.. We will all buy one anyhow. There aren't that many revolver shooters anyway... IF you "beat" me using iron sights and I'm shooting optics?. Your just a better shooter. LEAVE Revolver, revolver WITH any choice of sight system. 

[Sarge]

I don't know if I'll ever even have a dog in the hunt. I love and will only be an Open Division shooter because it's the most fun for me. 

BUT, I have a hard time caring about arguments being made that, Nationals was nearly won with a Beretta, or was won by a Striker gun for the last three years. The guys doing this are the elite amongst us. They could and have beat me and my open gun with a Glock in Production. But here is the thing, I didn't care. I was amazed. I didn't want to see change. Phil saying that 5% are being vocal and demanding change yet he mentions the top 1% as being able to win with anything. That makes both points moot.

  I also agree that there are getting to be too many divisions. How is your average weekend warrior in the summer RO supposed to keep up with the changes. Who will know a legal gun from an illegal gun with just a glance? That happened with Production. I finally got to where I didn't even care unless it was something glaring like a long mag in a Production gun. This trigger, not that trigger, this hammer but not that hammer, blahh, blah ,blah. Now it will be like, hey shooter you can't shoot that revo in L10. Huh??? Hey you can't shoot a 2011 in CO. It's not CO dumbass it's LO. RO laughs and says yeah riiight.

  I realize optics are the future. Heck, I can't even see iron sights anymore but I changed to Open to keep having fun and actually hit something once in awhile. If CO had been around I probably would have switched to it instead of Open and saved myself thousands of dollars. But the point is I didn't tell USPSA I need a new division to keep having fun. I adjusted to USPSA as it was at the time.

  Bottom line, the masses can definitely see the advantage of a 2011/1911 trigger over a striker fired gun, Can shoot better with an optic, etc. The masses of USPSA is where nearly ALL of the revenue comes from. Maybe they should be paid the most attention to?

 

[motosapiens]

45 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

Exactly, those 3 rounds end up being very precious on a lot of stages I see.  Enough so that a serious competitor wouldn't consider 40 minor. 

i don't think it would be a significant issue. I shoot both CO and Limited pretty frequently. Occasionally I have to do a 2nd reload in limited, but the reloads cost literally nothing if you are moving more than a step.

[motosapiens]

26 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

Well, I think Phil's ideas are just plain bad.  Anyone who spent thousands on a .40 Limited gun would be so pissed at the Organization that they would likely move on.  

As someone who spent thousands on a 40 limited gun, I agree that phil's ideas are just plain bad.

 

rob's idea to raise minor pf to 140-150 sucks slightly less. The winchester 9mm Ranger rounds that my colleagues carry in their backup guns are over 150pf according to my notes. Of course the primary duty weapon is 40, those make 186pf with a 155gr bullet.