rowdyb Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 35 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said: o CO? Yes. It was just in an article Jake wrote in ssusa iirc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC3D Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 3 minutes ago, motosapiens said: To avoid screwing up the most popular division in the sport. Currently CO is popular, and fun, and a diverse array of mfrs are well-represented. This makes it easy to get support and sponsorship dollars from sig and cz and canik and walther. Allowing SAO guns will quickly cause everyone in the division to shoot 2011's (just like every other division where 2011's are allowed). In terms of sponsorship, business, and practicality, it's objectively a losing proposition for the sport. I dont disagree with you at all here, but what is the value add to making this an entirely new division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC3D Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 5 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said: So you want to intentionally handicap the division so people can't shoot 'better' guns that match the name of the division to tee and instead make another division lol. Why are you scared of 2011s? I think it's more about accessibility than anything. People like not "needing" to compete against multi thousand dollar guns, weather that need is perceived or actual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 12 minutes ago, CC3D said: I think it's more about accessibility than anything. People like not "needing" to compete against multi thousand dollar guns, weather that need is perceived or actual. True but that's not a reason to create a whole new division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 23 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said: I can stuff 24+1 in a 142mm mag in open of 9mm and that isn't really even tuned so I'm assuming you can get 24 reloadable maybe 25+1? In limited 40 cal guys are running 21+1 or even 22+1 in 2011s... From talking to the CZ and Glock guys they're at 20+1. I have heard of a 22 round 40 mag, but a round or two makes pretty much zero difference anyway. I *can* barely get 21 in my 40 mags, and 23 in my cz CO mags, but imho it is far safer to not try to get the extra round.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 21 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said: So you want to intentionally handicap the division so people can't shoot 'better' guns that match the name of the division to tee and instead make another division lol. Why are you scared of 2011s? that's not what I said. I said I wanted to keep CO the same and not screw it up. Similar to not allowing 2011's in SS or production or revo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 18 minutes ago, CC3D said: I dont disagree with you at all here, but what is the value add to making this an entirely new division? there is no value to me in creating a new division. perhaps it has value to the whiny tactards that own 9mm 2011's. I honestly don't care whether they create a new division or not. OTOH, there is a lot of value to me in not screwing up the most popular existing division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DodgeThis Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 3 hours ago, N1BGR said: Like we really need a new division for the Limited shooters who want to run an optic but are too scared of the big bad open guns to step up. I honestly don't see any reason for this, as all it is going to do is drop the numbers in Limited when everyone throws a dot on their Limited gun. Personally, I honestly don't care about being "competitive", I just want to go out and have fun. If I wanted an optic on my Limited gun, I would either go to CO or Open. Just keep diluting the division numbers with more divisions. It's not about being scared. It's about open guns that are $4k-8k in cost. A limited optic gun will be more affordable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 6 minutes ago, DodgeThis said: It's not about being scared. It's about open guns that are $4k-8k in cost. A limited optic gun will be more affordable. Limited guns are $4-8k too nowadays. You're going to have $500-750 saving in building a slide ride 2011 vs. an open gun once the dust settles with most builders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 10 minutes ago, motosapiens said: there is no value to me in creating a new division. perhaps it has value to the whiny tactards that own 9mm 2011's. I honestly don't care whether they create a new division or not. OTOH, there is a lot of value to me in not screwing up the most popular existing division. How exactly is it going to get screwed up? You can still shoot whatever you have now and its been proven that 2011s are an advantage over other guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zachjet Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 (edited) 1 minute ago, mikeg1005 said: Limited guns are $4-8k too nowadays. You're going to have $500-750 saving in building a slide ride 2011 vs. an open gun once the dust settles with most builders. A lot more off the self options for LO that won’t be close to 4k Edited December 28, 2022 by Zachjet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 1 minute ago, Zachjet said: A lot more off the self options for LO that won’t be close to 4k Agreed, but not in a 2011. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dfehr401 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 The only ones gaining from this new division would be staccato, springfield, atlas and maybe a couple of other custom builders. Most people already in the uspsa string are die hard to there division. You just have a new group of tac timmys at matches. Please leave vest at home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC3D Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 15 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said: True but that's not a reason to create a whole new division. Agree 100%. Not advocating for this change at all lol just responding to a (nonconstructive) comment another user made 13 minutes ago, motosapiens said: there is no value to me in creating a new division. perhaps it has value to the whiny tactards that own 9mm 2011's. I honestly don't care whether they create a new division or not. OTOH, there is a lot of value to me in not screwing up the most popular existing division. Makes sense to me. CO is fine- but we didn't need another division. Those guys you're referring to would have been plenty happy shooting open and I think we're really kidding ourselves if we think adding this new division is going to somehow bring a significant influx of shooters to the sport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zachjet Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 Just now, mikeg1005 said: Agreed, but not in a 2011. Fair enough I think you’ll see more big manf. Make guns like the prodigy. Also the cz DWX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DodgeThis Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 But LO allows you to shoot minor so it's still more cost effective than a major PF open gun over time. 5 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said: Limited guns are $4-8k too nowadays. You're going to have $500-750 saving in building a slide ride 2011 vs. an open gun once the dust settles with most builders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 Companies making sub $4,000 2011s: Springfield, staccato, MasterPiece arms. A few that are almost 2011's bul, SPS maybe, Rock Island, Dan Wesson dwx. Probably some others that I'm not thinking of right now Some interesting guns that are in no way 2011's: various Browning high power copies, sig X5, and whatever that new 1911 hybrid that uses sig mags is. Most of those guns are under $3,000, some are well under 3,000. Hell some are under a thousand. You can buy a ready to go CZ shadow of some form from a gun shop for about three grand for carryops now though LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinister4 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 Well I like the idea, Nice 9mm 2011, 1911 or some sig 226 ish with a optic in minor now will have a class. But really all I ever look at is the match winner results anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zachjet Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 5 minutes ago, RJH said: Companies making sub $4,000 2011s: Springfield, staccato, MasterPiece arms. A few that are almost 2011's bul, SPS maybe, Rock Island, Dan Wesson dwx. Probably some others that I'm not thinking of right now Some interesting guns that are in no way 2011's: various Browning high power copies, sig X5, and whatever that new 1911 hybrid that uses sig mags is. Most of those guns are under $3,000, some are well under 3,000. Hell some are under a thousand. You can buy a ready to go CZ shadow of some form from a gun shop for about three grand for carryops now though LOL Speaking of my buddy just bought a rock island double stack for like 900$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSteel Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 Wasn’t hard to see this coming. The explosion in carry optics after all of the changes has made it hard to ignore the popularity of an optic. I’m not sure that the same will occur with a LO division but it’s pretty obvious this is part of their thought process. I suspect if it goes provisional there will be many tweaks post acceptance as there has been with CO…. $$$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 I also forgot about all the various CZ and tankfolio Sao guns or even da/sa guns that can be fired single action. If anybody tells me those guns can't compete with a 2011 they're completely full of s*** Most of those can be had for well under $3,000 as well, many under $2,000 some under a grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 8 minutes ago, RJH said: Companies making sub $4,000 2011s: Springfield, staccato, MasterPiece arms. A few that are almost 2011's bul, SPS maybe, Rock Island, Dan Wesson dwx. Probably some others that I'm not thinking of right now Some interesting guns that are in no way 2011's: various Browning high power copies, sig X5, and whatever that new 1911 hybrid that uses sig mags is. Most of those guns are under $3,000, some are well under 3,000. Hell some are under a thousand. You can buy a ready to go CZ shadow of some form from a gun shop for about three grand for carryops now though LOL If LO happens it will still end up looking like limited. You're going to have 2011s dominate (ranging from people with 9mm STIs with dots milled all the way to the most expensive SVs) due to mag capacity and ease of finding parts and you'll have a small % of other people showing up with the other guns but not many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 1 minute ago, RJH said: I also forgot about all the various CZ and tankfolio Sao guns or even da/sa guns that can be fired single action. If anybody tells me those guns can't compete with a 2011 they're completely full of s*** Most of those can be had for well under $3,000 as well, many under $2,000 some under a grand They can and do but people opt from 2011s due to mag capacity over CZ and tangfo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 I'm generally not in favor of new divisions but not screwing up the currently largest division is also a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 1 hour ago, mikeg1005 said: The real issue though with SAOs is 2011s have a higher capacity than other double stacks. Its why they're more common than Glocks, CZs, and Tanfos, in limited and open. This is not true in every instance. Max round count in my 2011 mags is 23+1, and I can get that round count in my CZ Shadow 2 and P320s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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