RileyBowman Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said: I feel like making PCC it's own match would of been better for PCC and the handgun divisions. My guess the decision wasn't based on thinking PCC shooters couldn't fill the match. From what I've seen, there's enough participation and interest in PCC plus enough crossover from shooters that participate in other divisions, that a PCC-only nationals would easily attract enough shooters to make it worth holding. I'd estimate at least 200 shooters, and it wouldn't surprise me if that number was higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 1 minute ago, RileyBowman said: From what I've seen, there's enough participation and interest in PCC plus enough crossover from shooters that participate in other divisions, that a PCC-only nationals would easily attract enough shooters to make it worth holding. I'd estimate at least 200 shooters, and it wouldn't surprise me if that number was higher. I agree completely. And the result I think would be a better match for the PCC platform. But, let's say hypothetically HQ was more worried about $$, and not putting on the best matches possible. This being a primarily pistol game we have more relationships with sponsors on the pistol side of things. Those sponsors probably wont be interested in a PCC only match. But, if you have two pistol nationals and put PCC in with one of them you can hit up those sponsors for both. You can still hit up the PCC sponsors for the one match they're going to be interested in, so no loss there. And the sponsors may even like the idea because it's going to get them more exposure from two matches in different parts of the country vs one combined match. PCC sponsors might like the idea of getting their name in front of non-pcc shooters as a added bonus too. Totally hypothetical obviously, but in this situation the number of participants and the quality of the match are irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RileyBowman Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said: I agree completely. And the result I think would be a better match for the PCC platform. But, let's say hypothetically HQ was more worried about $$, and not putting on the best matches possible. This being a primarily pistol game we have more relationships with sponsors on the pistol side of things. Those sponsors probably wont be interested in a PCC only match. But, if you have two pistol nationals and put PCC in with one of them you can hit up those sponsors for both. You can still hit up the PCC sponsors for the one match they're going to be interested in, so no loss there. And the sponsors may even like the idea because it's going to get them more exposure from two matches in different parts of the country vs one combined match. PCC sponsors might like the idea of getting their name in front of non-pcc shooters as a added bonus too. Totally hypothetical obviously, but in this situation the number of participants and the quality of the match are irrelevant. There's logic to what you say, however, I don't think that's the case at all. This is because I've actually talked with HQ about my company sponsoring Nationals before. While everything seems to be negotiable, and you can sponsor individual matches, what HQ really tries to push are their sponsorship packages which are actually structured in a way that you end up sponsoring ALL nationals in a given year. I think the bigger potential issue is venue availability and (probably more importantly) STAFF AVAILABILITY. Too many large scale events in a single year at different times would present staffing challenges. And with the creation of 2-Gun Nationals, I think that was probably the bigger factor in combining PCC with other pistol divisions. I think it would be interesting to explore the idea of a combined 2-Gun / PCC Nationals, that way people could choose whether to run 2 guns or just their PCC. And the stage design would be appropriate for both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, RileyBowman said: I think it would be interesting to explore the idea of a combined 2-Gun / PCC Nationals, that way people could choose whether to run 2 guns or just their PCC. And the stage design would be appropriate for both. It is possible this could be the path forward, but I hope not. I would like to compete in both. I think the attendance of this years 2 Gun Nationals will be telling, if this is possible and/or makes more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, RileyBowman said: There's logic to what you say, however, I don't think that's the case at all. This is because I've actually talked with HQ about my company sponsoring Nationals before. While everything seems to be negotiable, and you can sponsor individual matches, what HQ really tries to push are their sponsorship packages which are actually structured in a way that you end up sponsoring ALL nationals in a given year. This part kind of goes along with my point. It'll be easier to sell a package where you sponsor all the matches if you have customers interested in your product at all the matches. If you don't make anything for PCC getting roped into a package sponsoring PCC nationals might not be ideal. 4 minutes ago, RileyBowman said: I think the bigger potential issue is venue availability and (probably more importantly) STAFF AVAILABILITY. Too many large scale events in a single year at different times would present staffing challenges. And with the creation of 2-Gun Nationals, I think that was probably the bigger factor in combining PCC with other pistol divisions. I could see staffing being a issue for sure. Staffing is probably one of the biggest potential issues with any major match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said: What made it fall through? Range related issues, personalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 Just now, vluc said: Range related issues, personalities. That sucks, not the first time and I'm sure it wont be the last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageJoeShooting Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 8 nationals a year one for each division or open, pcc, CO and prod nationals each year and lump the other divisions into one national Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, AverageJoeShooting said: 8 nationals a year one for each division or open, pcc, CO and prod nationals each year and lump the other divisions into one national 8 Nationals seems like a lot. Plus you'd need multi gun and I guess 2 gun so that's 10 Nationals. Why prod over limited? hicap vs locap seems more sensible. Or optic vs irons. But, dumping one locap iron sight division in with the hicap dot guns doesn't make sense to me. I kind of like the idea of just having Nationals. As in one big ass match with everybody there shooting their favorite division. I'm sure the top guys don't like this idea as they only get one shot at a National title per year. But isn't that how it should be? Are there other sports where you get several chances to be the National champion every year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NMBOpen Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 Not a fan of 'Niche Nationals. Back-to-back Irons and Optics at a single venue or return to all-in-one (there weren't near as many divisions the last time that happened). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 33 minutes ago, NMBOpen said: Not a fan of 'Niche Nationals. Back-to-back Irons and Optics at a single venue or return to all-in-one (there weren't near as many divisions the last time that happened). agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 Is this the possible fix? Classic Nationals- Production, Single Stack, L-10, and Revolver one event. I think the numbers of participants in those divisions warrant that these shoot together. CO has its own Nationals. I think the numbers warrant CO to have its own Nationals. Following week at the same range with modified stage design from the CO Nationals the next week for Limited and Open. I.E. Race Gun Nationals. You can flip the weeks where Race Gun Nats is the week before Co Nats. 2 Gun Nationals Following week at the same range with modified stage design from 2 Gun Nationals for PCC Nationals. You can flip these weeks as well the order does not matter. Although switching from 2 Gun to PCC would most likely be easier than the other way around. I think this format makes the most sense. Helps out HQ in that they do not need to design stages for 8 Nationals. It helps staff at ranges in that you are only setting up "4" Nationals, and I think Staffing would not be as difficult. I do not think lining up sponsors in this format would be too hard either. Maybe something to look at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said: Is this the possible fix? Classic Nationals- Production, Single Stack, L-10, and Revolver one event. I think the numbers of participants in those divisions warrant that these shoot together. CO has its own Nationals. I think the numbers warrant CO to have its own Nationals. Following week at the same range with modified stage design from the CO Nationals the next week for Limited and Open. I.E. Race Gun Nationals. You can flip the weeks where Race Gun Nats is the week before Co Nats. 2 Gun Nationals Following week at the same range with modified stage design from 2 Gun Nationals for PCC Nationals. You can flip these weeks as well the order does not matter. Although switching from 2 Gun to PCC would most likely be easier than the other way around. I think this format makes the most sense. Helps out HQ in that they do not need to design stages for 8 Nationals. It helps staff at ranges in that you are only setting up "4" Nationals, and I think Staffing would not be as difficult. I do not think lining up sponsors in this format would be too hard either. Maybe something to look at. I think you're going to run into trouble staffing something like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said: Is this the possible fix? Classic Nationals- Production, Single Stack, L-10, and Revolver one event. I think the numbers of participants in those divisions warrant that these shoot together. CO has its own Nationals. I think the numbers warrant CO to have its own Nationals. Following week at the same range with modified stage design from the CO Nationals the next week for Limited and Open. I.E. Race Gun Nationals. You can flip the weeks where Race Gun Nats is the week before Co Nats. 2 Gun Nationals Following week at the same range with modified stage design from 2 Gun Nationals for PCC Nationals. You can flip these weeks as well the order does not matter. Although switching from 2 Gun to PCC would most likely be easier than the other way around. I think this format makes the most sense. Helps out HQ in that they do not need to design stages for 8 Nationals. It helps staff at ranges in that you are only setting up "4" Nationals, and I think Staffing would not be as difficult. I do not think lining up sponsors in this format would be too hard either. Maybe something to look at. unless USPSA has given up on multigun, that's another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageJoeShooting Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 13 hours ago, Racinready300ex said: 8 Nationals seems like a lot. Plus you'd need multi gun and I guess 2 gun so that's 10 Nationals. Why prod over limited? hicap vs locap seems more sensible. Or optic vs irons. But, dumping one locap iron sight division in with the hicap dot guns doesn't make sense to me. I kind of like the idea of just having Nationals. As in one big ass match with everybody there shooting their favorite division. I'm sure the top guys don't like this idea as they only get one shot at a National title per year. But isn't that how it should be? Are there other sports where you get several chances to be the National champion every year? I like the idea of just one national a year, but it seems our fearless leaders are only concerned about the revenue that comes in. and truthfully i excluded limited because i forgot it existed while i was typing it you could just lump it into open tho since its basically open with irons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageJoeShooting Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 12 hours ago, NMBOpen said: Not a fan of 'Niche Nationals. Back-to-back Irons and Optics at a single venue or return to all-in-one (there weren't near as many divisions the last time that happened). I also hate this, its almost like they forget that people work real jobs and that taking two weeks off in a row if you want to shoot both isnt always possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 2 hours ago, AverageJoeShooting said: I like the idea of just one national a year, but it seems our fearless leaders are only concerned about the revenue that comes in. Agreed 2 hours ago, AverageJoeShooting said: and truthfully i excluded limited because i forgot it existed while i was typing it you could just lump it into open tho since its basically open with irons And lmao, but really more and more people are going to forget limited exists going forward I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said: And lmao, but really more and more people are going to forget limited exists going forward I think. It will be interesting what happens to 40 then if Limited dies in USPSA. Is anyone else really using it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said: It will be interesting what happens to 40 then if Limited dies in USPSA. Is anyone else really using it? I don't know that what we do has any real effect on the usage of 40. We are about 35k members, only half that are active. Limited is about 20% of the activity, and apparently a decent number of that 20% shoots minor anyway. Not really big numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageJoeShooting Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said: Agreed And lmao, but really more and more people are going to forget limited exists going forward I think. ...so what youre telling me is that i need to get GM in limited proto before they dissolve the division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 5 hours ago, AverageJoeShooting said: I like the idea of just one national a year, but it seems our fearless leaders are only concerned about the revenue that comes in. why do you think it's just revenue, and why do you think it's the 'fearless leaders'? How much revenue do you suppose the org makes of nationals? I know when we put on an area match, we spend every damn penny on the match. Of course that does include some lasting infrastructure improvements to the range, but we are also only paying $10/shooter to use the range. Pretty sure USPSA is paying more than that. IMHO, a significant problem with one nationals for all divisions is that far fewer people will be able to shoot. Right now pretty much anyone can get into nats during open registration if they are quick, but that will be much more difficult with combined divisions. There's just a limit to how many humans you can stuff into 3-4 day match. Also some of us LIKE shooting multiple nationals as long as they are spaced out enough. For sure, if SS is run just as a division in the same match with limited/production/open, it will greatly diminish the quality of the SS field. As an SS shooter, I don't think that is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said: It will be interesting what happens to 40 then if Limited dies in USPSA. Is anyone else really using it? every officer in my agency carries a 40. Several other local agencies (sheriff's depts) also use 40. 9mm has mostly made inroads in more urban departments where liberal political leaders demand they hire sissies and weaklings. Anyway, who cares? competitors use what they need to use to compete, whether its 38 super comp or 38 short colt or 40. Edited November 4, 2021 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 28 minutes ago, motosapiens said: why do you think it's just revenue, and why do you think it's the 'fearless leaders'? I can see why people might think that. When nationals entry fee much higher than other matches, doesn't have enough porta-s#!tters, runs out of food and the awards are held on the range with out even seating for the competitors. And it's on the same range with the same props and walls as the last other matches. It may not be the reason, but clearly it makes people wonder. I can see the reason being as simple as getting more competitors in like you said. But if IPSC can have a world shoot in florida with 12-1300 shooters you'd think we could find a way to pull off a pretty big nationals and get most people in that want to be there. Of course you wont get to shoot multiple nationals that way. Which I think is part of the drive behind the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 There is a big difference in how IPSC and USPSA funds the larger matches. Sponsorship for IPSC matches is (for the most part) a cash only affair. That money goes directly into the match, props, RO hotel fees and the like. With USPSA the vendors and sponsors mostly provide items for the prize table and not cash. I've been to a few IPSC World Shoots as either a competitor or photographer; The presentation of a large IPSC match is head and shoulders above any large USPSA match in my opinion. If USPSA members want the larger more prestigious event then they will likely need to forego the prize table and have that sponsor money go into the match itself. For the major IPSC matches, attendance is earned, not everyone gets to go to the big show, but there are options; When the World Shoot was held in Florida they left the stages up at the end of the match and had a second competition for other competitors and then unofficially merged the results so the competitors could see how they would have fared against the best in the world. No reason USPSA could not do the same thing; Have a single Nationals with attendees based on rank/performance, leave the match setup and with a fresh batch of RO's run the same match again for those that did not qualify for the first one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilTerry Posted November 4, 2021 Share Posted November 4, 2021 Ain't going to happen Paul, Americans are not going to turn up if there is no prize table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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