2022 USPSA Nationals (all of 'em) Discussion

[twodownzero]

44 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Yes but the majority of members just download their stock mags. They don't use 10 round mags

 

That may be, but it's an option to them.  It is not a realistic option to the Open, Limited, and or PCC shooters who want to show up to these matches.  Even Production shooters are going to be reluctant to purchase 10 round magazines just so they can shoot behind the iron curtain.  And for Open, Limited, and PCC shooters, those are not realistic options at all.

[Boomstick303]

I guess match sign ups will tell the real story.

 

[obsessiveshooter]

56 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said:

everyone please read this, it should put your fears to rest:

https://www.idpa.com/announcements/2020-idpa-national-championship/

 

The link has IDPA addressing the exact concerns at hand, and includes a letter from the Mesa County Sheriff. If you read it, it should end your concerns.   

[GeneBray]

On 10/19/2021 at 11:54 AM, RJH said:

Not to get political, but doesn't Colorado have a 15 round mag capacity limit? Will there be any effect to competitors on that, or is that just new sales or something. Just curious on the law from anybody who might actually know. Thanks

For selling yes.  However, if you owned prior to law going into affect you were grandfathered.....for now.  You would need to research Colorado Revised Statutes to see what it says about bring hicaps into the state.  Since I live here, never paid  much attention to bring mags into the state for competitions/recreational shooting or hunting (if hicaps and hunting are can even be mentioned in the same breath which I doubt).

[Umbrarian]

6 hours ago, obsessiveshooter said:

everyone please read this, it should put your fears to rest:

https://www.idpa.com/announcements/2020-idpa-national-championship/

 

 

I do not think he is the Sheriff anymore.

 

Sheriff Home - Mesa County Sheriff's Office - Mesa County, Colorado

 

 

 

[open17]

20 hours ago, obsessiveshooter said:

The link has IDPA addressing the exact concerns at hand, and includes a letter from the Mesa County Sheriff. If you read it, it should end your concerns.   

Sheriff's letter dated 2018.

This from 2020:

This large-capacity magazine ban was challenged by the Rocky Mountain Gun Owners (a nonprofit organization with Republican leanings). But the Colorado Supreme Court upheld it nearly eight years later on June 29, 2020. The court stated:

“Plaintiffs failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that HB 1224 violates the state constitutional right to bear arms…HB 1224 was a reasonable exercise of the police power that has neither the purpose nor effect of nullifying the right to bear arms in self-defense” Rocky Mt. Gun Owners v. Polis (2020) 467 P.3d 314, 2020 CO 66.

[ltdmstr]

Kinda funny that the law is pretty darn clear, but plenty of folks are saying "it's not a problem" and "don't worry about it, everything will be fine."  That's great, until someone gets checked at the airport, or gets their car searched, or some other scenario, and all of a sudden it's an issue.  That may not have happened in Colorado yet, but it's happened plenty of other places.  Often with pretty harsh consequences.  And just because the local sheriff in a particular jurisdiction doesn't enforce the law, that doesn't mean you can expect the same in other areas.

[obsessiveshooter]

It's a shame that there are folks worried about the possibility of something happening that has truly zero chance of happening, but I understand the concern. I'd feel that way if I was going to attend a major match in California, I'd have lots of questions.  Fortunately, Colorado is nothing like California.    Local shooters fly in and out of Colorado all the time for major matches.  Hopefully the new County Sheriff will write a similar letter for USPSA.  

[Boomstick303]

I understand the concern.  I would not attend matches in New Jersey or New York if I had to fly in.  They actually haul you off to jail.

 

We assess risk in everything we do every day.  Colorado USPSA competitors are trying to help others understand the lay of the landscape here.  You do not have to believe us.  You have to take all of the information you obtain including current laws to assess the risks and to make your own decisions.  

 

Something to keep in mind if you research how people are charged in possession in Colorado of possessing High capacity magazines as a result of being charged with another crime.  Much like drug possession if you are pulled over for speeding.  Many laws are written and are enforced to varying degrees all over the world.  Several laws are broken by people everyday due to the fact they know there is no enforcement.  Again asses your own risk.   

 

There is always the choice of shipping your mags with your ammo.  This way they end up at the range the competition is going to be held.  Then ship them out before you fly out if you have concerns.  

 

Then there is the option of not going at all.  There is always a wait list for these events.

 

Like I said before, match attendance will tell the story.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Boomstick303

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, obsessiveshooter said:

It's a shame that there are folks worried about the possibility of something happening that has truly zero chance of happening, but I understand the concern. I'd feel that way if I was going to attend a major match in California, I'd have lots of questions.  Fortunately, Colorado is nothing like California.    Local shooters fly in and out of Colorado all the time for major matches.  Hopefully the new County Sheriff will write a similar letter for USPSA.  

I travel frequently to california, and see no reason to worry about it there either. OTOH, jersey has actually put people in jail for silly stuff like this, and I wouldn't shoot a match there for any reason in any division.

[twodownzero]

47 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I travel frequently to california, and see no reason to worry about it there either. OTOH, jersey has actually put people in jail for silly stuff like this, and I wouldn't shoot a match there for any reason in any division.

The last time I shot a match there, everyone was shooting Limited and Open.  I can't imagine having to take that kind of risk just to shoot matches.

 

I am really surprised to see people talking about this as if it was a mere "risk," like the risk of getting into a crash when driving.  This isn't just a risk--it's a crime.  Not only could you go to jail (highly doubt anyone reading this forum has ever spent much time there), but there are collateral consequences to criminal convictions (background checks, potential immigration consequences, etc.) that could follow a person for the rest of his life.

 

It is utterly irresponsible for USPSA to have scheduled the nationals in a state with a magazine capacity limit.  IDPA is a different story--every part of that game can be shot with 10 round magazines in every division.

[Umbrarian]

15 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

It is utterly irresponsible for USPSA to have scheduled the nationals in a state with a magazine capacity limit.  IDPA is a different story--every part of that game can be shot with 10 round magazines in every division.

Agreed. 
 

They really did not think through the optics of    having a National shooting organization openly flaunting the law. Nor the possibility the Gov/AG could force the issue with a surprise and mass arrest. 
 

We brush off claims NRA is a terrorist organization, but when they claim USPSA is a criminal organization that does not respect the law, well that will stick.  
 

Also of interest is how sponsors and sponsored shooters will react. Often those contracts have moral contracts, and not breaking the law is part of it. 
 

Most recall when Glock flush their entire team due to underage drinking even though there were no arrests. 

[Racinready300ex]

I'm sure the match will fill, they only need 600 of the 16k active members to pull that off. Should be easy.

 

Living in a s#!tty state I can understand peoples concern with how the law is worded. Even though it sounds like it'll be fine I can also understand why they would be annoyed with HQ for putting them in the situation where they have to make that choice. 

 

If it seems to risky stay home, if it really bothers you let your AD know so they can consider that in the future. Most likely there will be Nat's at that facility for the next few years. I'm sure this was all set up under the last president, so I guess consider that when you vote for the next guy. 

[ltdmstr]

1 hour ago, twodownzero said:

I am really surprised to see people talking about this as if it was a mere "risk," like the risk of getting into a crash when driving.  This isn't just a risk--it's a crime.  Not only could you go to jail (highly doubt anyone reading this forum has ever spent much time there), but there are collateral consequences to criminal convictions (background checks, potential immigration consequences, etc.) that could follow a person for the rest of his life.

 

It is utterly irresponsible for USPSA to have scheduled the nationals in a state with a magazine capacity limit.  IDPA is a different story--every part of that game can be shot with 10 round magazines in every division.

 

Exactly.  If you're a lawyer, government worker with security clearance, active duty military, or host of other professions, it's not a trivial matter. And even if it results in just a fine, there could be other very serious consequences.  It also puts USPSA in a very bad position because I'm sure they don't want to encourage their members to flout the law.  I know some people don't care, and think this is nothing to worry about.  But, for others, that's certainly not the case.

[twodownzero]

6 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Exactly.  If you're a lawyer, government worker with security clearance, active duty military, or host of other professions, it's not a trivial matter. And even if it results in just a fine, there could be other very serious consequences.  It also puts USPSA in a very bad position because I'm sure they don't want to encourage their members to flout the law.  I know some people don't care, and think this is nothing to worry about.  But, for others, that's certainly not the case.

 

I'm glad I have compliant equipment, but I absolutely resent that we'd tell newer shooters to either flout the law or don't be competitive.  That is not the spirit of USPSA and that is wrong.

[RileyBowman]

On 10/19/2021 at 2:15 PM, twodownzero said:

Given my job and my oath, I can't violate the law just because it's unlikely I'd get caught.  I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

LE and Military are exempt from the law. So you will be good.

All the rest of us peasants will have a choice to make. Here's what I can say based on personal experience of living here for the past 12 years and fighting against the stupid laws passed back in early 2013:

1. I can find ZERO examples of the law being enforced EXCEPT where the "large capacity" magazine (LCM) was used in the commission of a crime. 

 

2. There is no law enforcement entity that checks or even pays attention to magazine capacities of firearms that are checked and brought through the airport. Heck, we were dealing with this more than a decade ago when Denver was the only jurisdiction in the state that had a capacity limit (20 rounds) when we took our ARs with 30-rd mags to the airport. (Denver International Airport is in the City of Denver limits) Nobody got in trouble even with Denver PD back then either.

 

3. LCM's can be readily bought and purchased at any number of gun stores in the state of Colorado. Some of them are sold as "kits" (disassembled magazines--magazine body in one bag, springs and follower in another). Some of the dealers are selling them fully assembled. Not one dealer has ever been targeted with prosecution for this. At the very least, it is believed that there is a loop hole with regard to the sale of magazine parts or kits. Keep in mind that this has been the standard practice now for 8 years.

 

4. Nearly every Sheriff (and a large number of police chiefs) in the state of Colorado is on record of saying they will not expend any resources to enforce the law.

 

5. We have many active LEO's that shoot our local and state-level matches right alongside us peasants and couldn't care less. 

 

I know this may not fully resolve your concerns. But there has been plenty of opportunity for this statute to be tested and tried against competitive shooters at high profile shooting events in the state over the course of the last 8+ years. People aren't getting thrown in the slammer from random traffic stops upon discovery of LCMs in their vehicle. As connected as I am with the shooting community in this state, if that were happening, I would know about it. 

 

At the very least, if you are still concerned, I would suggest considering arriving in our beautiful state with disassembled magazines and leaving with them in the same condition. I personally believe there is nothing to worry about. And I suspect conversations about this very thing have been held between USPSA, the Cameo Shooting & Education Complex (which is state-owned and operated by the way...yeah, those guys don't care about LCMs either), and local and perhaps even state-level law enforcement. I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of clarification letter come out.

 

Signed,

 

This Former LEO

[ltdmstr]

1 hour ago, RileyBowman said:

LE and Military are exempt from the law. So you will be good.

All the rest of us peasants will have a choice to make. Here's what I can say based on personal experience of living here for the past 12 years and fighting against the stupid laws passed back in early 2013:

1. I can find ZERO examples of the law being enforced EXCEPT where the "large capacity" magazine (LCM) was used in the commission of a crime. 

 

2. There is no law enforcement entity that checks or even pays attention to magazine capacities of firearms that are checked and brought through the airport. Heck, we were dealing with this more than a decade ago when Denver was the only jurisdiction in the state that had a capacity limit (20 rounds) when we took our ARs with 30-rd mags to the airport. (Denver International Airport is in the City of Denver limits) Nobody got in trouble even with Denver PD back then either.

 

3. LCM's can be readily bought and purchased at any number of gun stores in the state of Colorado. Some of them are sold as "kits" (disassembled magazines--magazine body in one bag, springs and follower in another). Some of the dealers are selling them fully assembled. Not one dealer has ever been targeted with prosecution for this. At the very least, it is believed that there is a loop hole with regard to the sale of magazine parts or kits. Keep in mind that this has been the standard practice now for 8 years.

 

4. Nearly every Sheriff (and a large number of police chiefs) in the state of Colorado is on record of saying they will not expend any resources to enforce the law.

 

5. We have many active LEO's that shoot our local and state-level matches right alongside us peasants and couldn't care less. 

 

I know this may not fully resolve your concerns. But there has been plenty of opportunity for this statute to be tested and tried against competitive shooters at high profile shooting events in the state over the course of the last 8+ years. People aren't getting thrown in the slammer from random traffic stops upon discovery of LCMs in their vehicle. As connected as I am with the shooting community in this state, if that were happening, I would know about it. 

 

At the very least, if you are still concerned, I would suggest considering arriving in our beautiful state with disassembled magazines and leaving with them in the same condition. I personally believe there is nothing to worry about. And I suspect conversations about this very thing have been held between USPSA, the Cameo Shooting & Education Complex (which is state-owned and operated by the way...yeah, those guys don't care about LCMs either), and local and perhaps even state-level law enforcement. I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of clarification letter come out.

 

Signed,

 

This Former LEO

 

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that the risk is low.  But, it's simply wrong to suggest there's no risk at all.  Or that the potential consequences for some could be severe.  It also means nothing when it comes to USPSA's status as a national organization that shouldn't be encouraging it's members to violate the law, even if it's not actively enforced.  

Edited October 22, 2021 by ltdmstr

[RileyBowman]

The problem is that it is unclear what the law actually means. It's a poorly worded and constructed law. It is unclear how the law applies to people that move or travel to the state. It is unclear about any sort of procedure of what to do with magazines that are bought outside the state or brought to the state. Is USPSA encouraging members to violate the law? I'd say that's actually hard to say with the current verbiage of the statute.

 

[twodownzero]

7 minutes ago, RileyBowman said:

The problem is that it is unclear what the law actually means. It's a poorly worded and constructed law. It is unclear how the law applies to people that move or travel to the state. It is unclear about any sort of procedure of what to do with magazines that are bought outside the state or brought to the state. Is USPSA encouraging members to violate the law? I'd say that's actually hard to say with the current verbiage of the statute.

 

 

I'm a lawyer, so it's not unclear to me what it says and means.  It says I could be punished by imprisonment if I possess things that I am able to buy through the mail with no oversight at all in my home state--things that are essentially required for me to possess if I sign up for this match, which I fully intend to do.

 

I can find zero examples of anyone being prosecuted federally for a small amount of marijuana in recent history, either, but I can tell you right now that if I did that, and my boss found out, I'd be fired before I could even return to work, even if there never was any serious risk of prosecution.  He wouldn't care that there's no enforcement, all the negative drug tests in the world wouldn't matter, and I'd suffer serious collateral consequences even if nobody prosecuted me.

 

Why are so many people trying to rationalize telling overwhelmingly law-abiding people to violate a criminal statute that carries imprisonment?  How serious a crime must one commit before it's unacceptable to flout the law?

Edited October 22, 2021 by twodownzero

[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

I'm a lawyer, so it's not unclear to me what it says and means.  It says I could be punished by imprisonment if I possess things that I am able to buy through the mail with no oversight at all in my home state--things that are essentially required for me to possess if I sign up for this match, which I fully intend to do.

 

I can find zero examples of anyone being prosecuted federally for a small amount of marijuana in recent history, either, but I can tell you right now that if I did that, and my boss found out, I'd be fired before I could even return to work, even if there never was any serious risk of prosecution.  He wouldn't care that there's no enforcement, all the negative drug tests in the world wouldn't matter, and I'd suffer serious collateral consequences even if nobody prosecuted me.

 

Why are so many people trying to rationalize telling overwhelmingly law-abiding people to violate a criminal statute that carries imprisonment?  How serious a crime must one commit before it's unacceptable to flout the law?

meh. whatever. this doesn't seem anything like pot use. It seems more like changing the carburetion settings on your motorcycle. Yes, it's illegal, and especially illegal in some states, but nobody cares, and people still travel to those states to race.

 

And fwiw, my agency cites and prosecutes people for small amounts of marijuana pretty regularly.

[BritinUSA]

Eleven people have been prosecuted under this statute, source: https://www.kunc.org/2019-07-17/six-years-in-few-people-have-been-sentenced-under-colorados-large-capacity-magazine-ban

[motosapiens]

11 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Eleven people have been prosecuted under this statute, source: https://www.kunc.org/2019-07-17/six-years-in-few-people-have-been-sentenced-under-colorados-large-capacity-magazine-ban

 

apparently all of them in connection with other felonies.

[ChuckS]

Just a reminder, if you have an opinion about the match locations, pass on that opinion to your area director. That will likely have more effect than posting in this thread  

[RileyBowman]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

 

apparently all of them in connection with other felonies.

Yes.

 

That is what I've seen as well. I am unaware of a single charge that was solely because of possession. 

[Racinready300ex]

We have some funny laws like this hear in MD too. Things that the only way anyone will know is if something funny happens. Maybe you get in a car crash, or they get stolen and you have to report it. Maybe even a traffic stop when the cop asks about weapons if you don't lie maybe he wants to have a look. I don't know of cases like that happening, but that doesn't mean it couldn't either.