DQ

[kpbaer]

You shot all the stages and say got DQed at the safe table. Do the scores stand? Rule #

[Rnlinebacker]

If you got DQed than the match is still going on, so yes scores are deleted. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Rnlinebacker

[outerlimits]

nope-10.3.3

[SGT_Schultz]

Scores do not stand.  See 10.3.3.

 

Not sure why someone would think that a DQ at the safe table after completing all courses of fire is exempt.  The match is still on until the scores are declared final by the MD.  See 6.5.3 for that.

Edited July 1, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[kpbaer]

How about Steel Challenge match Questioning 10.2 in there rule book

[Schutzenmeister]

The closest rule I can find, based on the description, would be 10.3.5, and that clearly does not apply here.

[driver8M3]

11 hours ago, kpbaer said:

How about Steel Challenge match Questioning 10.2 in there rule book

USPSA has a similar rule that could apply, depending on the circumstances:

 

6.2.6 - A match disqualification incurred by a competitor, at any time during a match, will prevent the competitor from further participation in the match including any subsequent attempts in another Division. However, this is not retroactive. Any previous and complete match scores from another Division will be included for recognition and awards in that Division.

 

[motosapiens]

59 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

 

 

USPSA has a similar rule that could apply, depending on the circumstances:

 

6.2.6 - A match disqualification incurred by a competitor, at any time during a match, will prevent the competitor from further participation in the match including any subsequent attempts in another Division. However, this is not retroactive. Any previous and complete match scores from another Division will be included for recognition and awards in that Division.

 

critical part right there. if you dq at the safe table with your limited gun just after you finished the stages in limited, your scores are toast. OTOH, if you shot the complete match in CO that morning or the day before, those scores are still good. In uspsa this is normally only a thing for classifier matches, since you generally can't enter multiple divisions at a major match (at least not for match recognition).

[broadside72]

Two issues being discussed here.

1) When you are DQ'd relative to competing in another division 
2) When you are DQ'd relative to the end of the match

If you complete the match in one division and then change to another division and are DQ'd while "in that division" then the previous results stand and the current division is a match DQ.  So if you shoot Limited first (e.g. Saturday squad) and plan to shoot CO next (e.g. Sunday squad) then if you DQ at the safe table with the Limited gun your Limited scores are gone and I don't think you can shoot the CO division as you are out of the match. If you DQ at all with the CO gun, then you are DQ'd from the match but the Limited scores stand as you are 100% done with the Limited division. 

 

For Steel Challenge matches where you often shoot multiple divisions at the same time, then a match DQ is a match DQ and both entries go away. 

If the match results are declared final and thus the match is over, then your scores stand and its just up to the range officials for the range itself (not the match officials, though often the same) to decide what happens to you if you do something unsafe, but your scores stand

[Bagellord]

What are the exact circumstances?

[kpbaer]

5 hours ago, Bagellord said:

What are the exact circumstances?

There squad finished the match but other squads were still shooting went into a bay and started shooting checking something with his gun.

[kpbaer]

Just now, kpbaer said:

There squad finished the match but other squads were still shooting went into a bay and started shooting checking something with his gun.

This was Steel Challenge

[Bagellord]

12 hours ago, kpbaer said:

There squad finished the match but other squads were still shooting went into a bay and started shooting checking something with his gun.

 

Ah I see. Yeah that's a DQ... and a paddlin'. Scores for that day would not stand IMO because the day was not done yet.

[broadside72]

15 hours ago, kpbaer said:

There squad finished the match but other squads were still shooting went into a bay and started shooting checking something with his gun.

 

With or without permission from the match officials and with or without an RO present? Function fire and testing in and of itself is not a DQ. Doing it without permission is. 

[laz2011]

No, DQ means you are done for the match.  

[motosapiens]

On 7/2/2021 at 10:11 AM, broadside72 said:

 

With or without permission from the match officials and with or without an RO present? Function fire and testing in and of itself is not a DQ. Doing it without permission is. 

At least it *may* be a dq to function fire without permission. every range is different. it's more and more common to have a function fire bay that is considered not part of the match, so you can go there and bust some caps with no supervision. But I always ask. Even at my home range where I am VP of the club.

Edited July 3, 2021 by motosapiens

[ltdmstr]

On 7/3/2021 at 6:22 PM, motosapiens said:

it's more and more common to have a function fire bay that is considered not part of the match, so you can go there and bust some caps with no supervision.

 

Not sure how this is ok if competition is under way.  Maybe with an RO present and for a specific reason.  Like if a competitor has a gun issue and they're test firing for safety check after adjustment or repair.  Or something like that.  But just to warm up, try out someone else's gun, etc., no way.

[MHicks]

I shot a level 2 match a couple of months ago that had a bay with one cardboard and one steel set up for particpants use. They mentioned it in the matchbook. I went to use it but stopped a match official to double check on any requirements before I did. Shot one 8 round mag.

 

I can't remember if it was before we started. There was a stage thrown out and a huge back up at the next stage. Whether they should have a bay like that, I don't know but I followed their instructions.

 

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Not sure how this is ok if competition is under way.  Maybe with an RO present and for a specific reason.  Like if a competitor has a gun issue and they're test firing for safety check after adjustment or repair.  Or something like that.  But just to warm up, try out someone else's gun, etc., no way.

The "not part of the match" bay has been used at Area 1 and at the 2017 Nationals in Utah. 

[ltdmstr]

1 hour ago, ChuckS said:

The "not part of the match" bay has been used at Area 1 and at the 2017 Nationals in Utah. 

 

I guess I'm trying to understand how it's ok to have unsupervised shooters on a bay and that's ok under the rules just because it's referred to as "not part of the match.  Just calling it "not part of the match" doesn't make it so if the shooters are competitors and competition is going on.  Maybe if it's at a separate section of the range that's under the control of some other entity, that might be different.  But if it's just an empty bay adjacent to the match or something like that, no way.  If someone can cite a rule that allows this, that might help.  But I'm not aware of any.  Also, I can guarantee you if there's an incident and it turns into a legal hassle, it's 100% going to be considered "part of the match" if it involves a competitor.  For that reason alone, it's a very bad idea.

[motosapiens]

10 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Not sure how this is ok if competition is under way.  Maybe with an RO present and for a specific reason.  Like if a competitor has a gun issue and they're test firing for safety check after adjustment or repair.  Or something like that.  But just to warm up, try out someone else's gun, etc., no way.

i'm guessing you haven't been to nationals lately? there was an unsupervised warmup bay at nationals in frostproof in the fall, and again at talladega in may, and also at the colorado state match last month. Not sure what kind of incidents you are worried about, but it appears that uspsa shooters are grown up enough to not do stupid stuff. 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by motosapiens

[ltdmstr]

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i'm guessing you haven't been to nationals lately? there was an unsupervised warmup bay at nationals in frostproof in the fall, and again at talladega in may, and also at the colorado state match last month. Not sure what kind of incidents you are worried about, but it appears that uspsa shooters are grown up enough to not do stupid stuff. 

 

 

 

1.  I haven't been to the Nationals in a long time.  Not sure how that's even relevant.  But, I guess your point is that if they do it at the Nationals, and other places, then it's ok.  That's an interesting position to take.  So, should club level matches be allowed to deviate from the rules, or only L2 or L3 matches?  And who gets to decide?  And on what specific issues?

 

2.  As for incidents I'm worried about, stuff happens all the time.  Just last week I was shooting a club match and after I shot a stage was off to the side reloading my magazines.  I turned around and a new(er) shooter with an open gun had dropped it and it was pointed dead center at my chest.  There was also another thread on here just a couple of days ago where a shooter left the line, then came back later to shoot a stage and at the load and make ready when he racked the slide, a live round came out.  So, yeah, stuff happens.  And more than some people seem to realize or want to acknowledge.  Do you really want that kind of stuff going on in a bay with no RO present? 

 

3.  The comment that USPSA shooters are grown up and don't do stupid stuff is pretty ridiculous.  The two items mentioned above are good examples.  And in all the years I've been doing this, pretty much every major match there is at least one DQ for a safety violation.  Also, I'm not sure what legal jurisdictions you're familiar with, but in this country, that's not going to fly as a defense.  If someone gets hurt you might as well just save the legal fees and hand over the keys.

 

4.  Getting back to the point, I'm still waiting for someone to cite a rule that allows this.  If there is one, I'd like to read and understand it.  If there isn't one, just because some some people are ok with this and think it's ok doesn't make it so.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by ltdmstr

[Whitefish]

Shot Area 1 at Marysville, WA about 20 years ago and they had 20 some DQ's for a variety of violations. In fact, one of my friends had his match t-shirt embroidered with "I didn't dq at Area 1". I actually ended up getting recruited to RO by the CRO on one stage because one of the assigned RO's didn't show up on time after lunch. That was a trip because the first squad after lunch was the "super squad" with Rob Leatham, Travis Tomasie, and others. Actually, they were all real gentlemen and shot smoothly and safely - thank goodness. Actually, that stage was one of the notorious ones with several dq's on other squads, so based on those 20+ dq's for that match, I would have to agree that USPSA shooters can do stupid things at matches, especially the bigger ones with more on the line. My recollection is that George Jones came out from NJ and was one of the CRO's at that match as well.

[motosapiens]

29 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

1.  I haven't been to the Nationals in a long time.  Not sure how that's even relevant.  But, I guess your point is that if they do it at the Nationals, and other places, then it's ok.  That's an interesting position to take.  So, should club level matches be allowed to deviate from the rules, or only L2 or L3 matches?  And who gets to decide?  And on what specific issues?

 

2.  As for incidents I'm worried about, stuff happens all the time.  Just last week I was shooting a club match and after I shot a stage was off to the side reloading my magazines.  I turned around and a new(er) shooter with an open gun had dropped it and it was pointed dead center at my chest.  There was also another thread on here just a couple of days ago where a shooter left the line, then came back later to shoot a stage and at the load and make ready when he racked the slide, a live round came out.  So, yeah, stuff happens.  And more than some people seem to realize or want to acknowledge.  Do you really want that kind of stuff going on in a bay with no RO present? 

 

3.  The comment that USPSA shooters are grown up and don't do stupid stuff is pretty ridiculous.  The two items mentioned above are good examples.  And in all the years I've been doing this, pretty much every major match there is at least one DQ for a safety violation.  Also, I'm not sure what legal jurisdictions you're familiar with, but in this country, that's not going to fly as a defense.  If someone gets hurt you might as well just save the legal fees and hand over the keys.

 

4.  Getting back to the point, I'm still waiting for someone to cite a rule that allows this.  If there is one, I'd like to read and understand it.  If there isn't one, just because some some people are ok with this and think it's ok doesn't make it so.

 

 

nothing in your post has any bearing on this issue. I don't think an explicit rule is required to allow every single thing that might happen at a match. What rule do you think prohibits designating a function-fire bay?

[ltdmstr]

10.5.1 and 10.5.13 seem pretty clear to me.  Also, 3.3 prohibits local exemptions unless specifically authorized by HQ.  I'm not aware of anything in the rules that allows for unsupervised gun handling and/or live fire.  If you have a rule to cite, please do so. 

 

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

 

10.5.1 - Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. This includes deliberately removing a flag from a PCC except under the conditions listed here.

 

10.5.13 - Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer.

 

- - -  

 

3.3 Applicability of Rules

 

3.3 - Applicability of Rules. USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express written consent of the President of USPSA. All local rules allowed under these provisions will be documented at USPSA HQ.

Edited July 6, 2021 by ltdmstr