DQ

[Bagellord]

There is a really simple solution to this debate over function fire bays. Ask NROI/HQ how they reconcile it and go about it.

[motosapiens]

9 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

10.5.1 and 10.5.13 seem pretty clear to me.  Also, 3.3 prohibits local exemptions unless specifically authorized by HQ.  I'm not aware of anything in the rules that allows for unsupervised gun handling and/or live fire.  If you have a rule to cite, please do so. 

 

those rules apply at a uspsa match, in the area allocated for the match. they don't apply elsewhere, for example to other bays on a public range.

 

function fire bay is designated as not being within the match. You leave the area of the match, and have to be in compliance again once you return.

 

I do think it would be reasonable to address such bays in the rules, similar to the vendor area, for example. Right now if you're really outside the match, then it wouldn't be a dq to sweep someone either in the function fire bay, no more than it would be a dq to sweep yourself while dry-firing in your hotel room. I could see wanting to close that loophole.

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

those rules apply at a uspsa match, in the area allocated for the match. they don't apply elsewhere, for example to other bays on a public range.

 

function fire bay is designated as not being within the match. You leave the area of the match, and have to be in compliance again once you return.

 

I do think it would be reasonable to address such bays in the rules, similar to the vendor area, for example. Right now if you're really outside the match, then it wouldn't be a dq to sweep someone either in the function fire bay, no more than it would be a dq to sweep yourself while dry-firing in your hotel room. I could see wanting to close that loophole.

I'm not going to argue one way or the other but I'm not fond of considering a test fire bay to be outside the match. I don't see how we could call it outside the match then turn around and DQ somebody for putting their gun in a holster at their car in a parking lot a few hundred yards or more away.

  Another concern would be, if something bad happened in the unattended bay. Would the RM/MD be held accountable in some way? Would they become liable for injury, etc? I guess what I'm saying is, if they negligently discharge a gun and it strikes a match competitor, how would it hold up that the bay and shooter were not part of the match?

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I'm not going to argue one way or the other but I'm not fond of considering a test fire bay to be outside the match. I don't see how we could call it outside the match then turn around and DQ somebody for putting their gun in a holster at their car in a parking lot a few hundred yards or more away.

  Another concern would be, if something bad happened in the unattended bay. Would the RM/MD be held accountable in some way? Would they become liable for injury, etc? I guess what I'm saying is, if they negligently discharge a gun and it strikes a match competitor, how would it hold up that the bay and shooter were not part of the match?

not sure how it would be different from someone at the public range next door doing the same thing. Or from a competitor at the match hotel cooking one off in the evening. How many times have people accidentally shot other competitors at matches anyway? 

 

Parking lots are generally specifically called out in the match book as an area where handling firearms is prohibited.

 

You guys sound like liberal lawyers or something, trying to imagine what could possibly go wrong and use that as an excuse for more unnecessary rules and restrictions. It seems pretty obvious to me that having a function-fire bay is a good thing for the competitors and staff both. That's probably why they've become more common and popular.

[ltdmstr]

The difference is, the individual is a competitor who's at the range for a match, and the unsupervised live fire is being done with the knowledge and consent of the match staff, who more than likely also have control over that portion of the range (as evidenced by the fact that they've designated it as a "function test bay").  I don't know that anyone's actually referred to me as liberal before, which I certainly am not.  But, I live in the real world, and I can tell you any plaintiff's lawyer will take about 30 second to establish that the unsupervised live fire was "at the match" regardless of whether someone says it wasn't.  I don't have any problem with a function test or warmup bay or anything like that.  The problem is it's unsupervised with no RO and no rules.

[motosapiens]

46 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

The problem is it's unsupervised with no RO and no rules.

why is that a problem? Is someone more likely to get hurt without an RO there to provide some window-dressing?

 

I go to the range every week and there are unsupervised people firing in the bay next to me. Is it suddenly more dangerous because they are experienced uspsa competitors? I'm on the BOD of our local range (currently VP, was safety officer for several years before that). Generally USPSA competitors are pretty low on our list of liability worries. Maybe it's a regional thing. In my hood most of the guys shopping at the grocery store are carrying loaded guns, so we don't freak out too much about grown adults doing adult stuff.

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by motosapiens

[StuckinMS]

17 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

10.5.1 and 10.5.13 seem pretty clear to me.  Also, 3.3 prohibits local exemptions unless specifically authorized by HQ.  I'm not aware of anything in the rules that allows for unsupervised gun handling and/or live fire.  If you have a rule to cite, please do so. 

 

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

 

10.5.1 - Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer. This includes deliberately removing a flag from a PCC except under the conditions listed here.

 

10.5.13 - Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer.

 

- - -  

 

3.3 Applicability of Rules

 

3.3 - Applicability of Rules. USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express written consent of the President of USPSA. All local rules allowed under these provisions will be documented at USPSA HQ.

USPSA rules are for matches. Matches consist of stages and the areas set up for those stages. That is why the chrono is considered a stage. Any bays that are not being used by the match are not governed by match rules. Nothing you listed applies. 

[ltdmstr]

1 hour ago, StuckinMS said:

USPSA rules are for matches. Matches consist of stages and the areas set up for those stages. That is why the chrono is considered a stage. Any bays that are not being used by the match are not governed by match rules. Nothing you listed applies. 

 

So, you can DQ someone for unsafe gun handling in a safe area, clubhouse, parking lot, outhouse, or just about anywhere at the range when a match is taking place.  But not in another bay that's specifically set aside for unsupervised live fire, because it's not designated as a match stage?  Ok.  Also, the bigger concern is the potential for legal liability.  If they designate a bay for unsupervised live fire, and something bad happens, they're going to have a real problem regardless of whether they consider that part of the match or not.

Edited July 7, 2021 by ltdmstr

[motosapiens]

50 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 If they designate a bay for unsupervised live fire, and something bad happens, they're going to have a real problem regardless of whether they consider that part of the match or not.

if something bad happens, in any bay, there's probably going to be a real problem. I'm not a big fan of the mindset that we must have more rules and less freedom out of fear of lawyers. That's the same thinking that leads people to putting up signs prohibiting firearms in their store.

[Eric802]

43 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

So, you can DQ someone for unsafe gun handling in a safe area, clubhouse, parking lot, outhouse, or just about anywhere at the range when a match is taking place.  But not in another bay that's specifically set aside for unsupervised live fire, because it's not designated as a match stage?  Ok.  Also, the bigger concern is the potential for legal liability.  If they designate a bay for unsupervised live fire, and something bad happens, they're going to have a real problem regardless of whether they consider that part of the match or not.

That seems to be pretty much what it boils down to, yeah. And these blanket comments about "legal liability" are baseless. There are all kinds of issues that go into it, like assumption of risk, duty, foreseeability, etc.  Putting a note in the matchbook or a sign at the entrance to the bay saying "Bay X is designated for live fire function testing; no supervision is provided, use at your own risk" would probably mitigate a lot of potential liability.  As has been noted, this has apparently been going on pretty regularly at various level II and III matches, so it's not like we're getting in to cutting edge legal issues here.  

[StuckinMS]

On 7/7/2021 at 7:44 AM, ltdmstr said:

 

So, you can DQ someone for unsafe gun handling in a safe area, clubhouse, parking lot, outhouse, or just about anywhere at the range when a match is taking place.  But not in another bay that's specifically set aside for unsupervised live fire, because it's not designated as a match stage?  Ok.  Also, the bigger concern is the potential for legal liability.  If they designate a bay for unsupervised live fire, and something bad happens, they're going to have a real problem regardless of whether they consider that part of the match or not.

You seem very over concerned. This is a sport and most of us do it for self pleasure as a way to relax. At the end of the day you need to be responsible for you and realize this is probably one of the safest sports to participate in. If someone makes you feel uncomfortable find the match director and let them make a decision. 

[StuckinMS]

On 7/7/2021 at 8:36 AM, motosapiens said:

if something bad happens, in any bay, there's probably going to be a real problem. I'm not a big fan of the mindset that we must have more rules and less freedom out of fear of lawyers. That's the same thinking that leads people to putting up signs prohibiting firearms in their store.

Exactly!