3-gun Or Multi Gun

[Still Praying]

Would you rather shoot 3 Gun or Multi Gun? Why? I for one would chose 3 Gun.

Ronnie

[George]

If you define 3 gun as all individual gun stages ala' IPSC Tournament rules and Multigun as any combination of single, dual, or all three within a match, then it would have to be Multigun for me. I would not want all 3 guns on every stage, all of the time, or even 2 most of the time and all 3 the rest of the time. Multigun, to me is a balanced match that includes enough single and multiple gun stages to keep it interesting and challenging.

I think the individual match concept of the all single gun stage Tournament method is better served by individual Rifle, Pistol and Shotgun matches held on a standalone basis. If I want to focus on winning a rifle match, I would rather be at a rifle only match.

[glockster96]

I prefer multi-gun, as I find it more challenging and stimulating to use more than 1 gun per stage.

I heartily agree with George's sentiment - the mix is very important when designing a multi-gun match.

[Mickster]

Multi-gun for sure. More randomity. More excitement. More fun. More things that can go wrong.

A blend of multi-gun and 3-gun would be best. Some stages use 1 gun and some use 2 or more.

There is something to be said in favor of a pure 3-gun match though. After the Area 6 3-gun I found that not having to haul around 3 times as much gear from stage to stage pretty nice.

[Larry White]

I like em both.----Larry

[Paule]

Multi Gun for me. Not all 3 on every stage, and only one on some is fine too. As long as the stage runs smoothly and is not bogged down with complicated pre-staging and clearing problems, the chance to test a wider set of skills is appealing to me.

[mhearn]

Multi vs Three

I think multi-gun is more fun and exciting. There's more chaos. More trouble. More problems. More everything. I enjoy the challenge of it. Making everything happen.

But. I don't envy anyone who is trying to run a multi-gun match. When I've worked on multi-gun, I've found that it takes more people, more time, and more patience. At Area 6 2005, we ran a three gun match. Not multi-gun. Woogie (MD) made a conscious decision based upon the resources that he had available to limit the trouble. We were pushing it to get six qualified ROs to run squads on Saturday. For the most part, the match ran smooth and quick. No regrets.

Rio Salado, other big club, I hope they do run multi-gun matches. I'll be there. Small clubs that are under staffed and over worked. I hope they know their limitations and don't try to pull off something that they can't. For us who are dedicated to this sport, I hope we'll answer the call and help our clubs run matches.

Many of you on this forum run matches and know what it's like. You have my respect. You should run your match as you want. I'll either come or I won't. I might come only once, if you don't know what your doing. If your talking about the this issue, but not helping run matches, excuse me while I ignore your opinion.

MHearn

[ima45dv8]

Multi vs Three

I think multi-gun is more fun and exciting. There's more chaos. More trouble. More problems. More everything. I enjoy the challenge of it. Making everything happen.

But. I don't envy anyone who is trying to run a multi-gun match. When I've worked on multi-gun, I've found that it takes more people, more time, and more patience. At Area 6 2005, we ran a three gun match. Not multi-gun. Woogie (MD) made a conscious decision based upon the resources that he had available to limit the trouble. We were pushing it to get six qualified ROs to run squads on Saturday. For the most part, the match ran smooth and quick. No regrets.

Rio Salado, other big club, I hope they do run multi-gun matches. I'll be there. Small clubs that are under staffed and over worked. I hope they know their limitations and don't try to pull off something that they can't. For us who are dedicated to this sport, I hope we'll answer the call and help our clubs run matches.

Many of you on this forum run matches and know what it's like. You have my respect. You should run your match as you want. I'll either come or I won't. I might come only once, if you don't know what your doing.

Good post, Mark. I like multi-gun also, but it is sometimes a pain due to the complexity of setup, the extended LAMR, and the additional time to clear the stage(s). It's sad to see folks who started the day full of excitement end the day complaining about how long the match was. Running one this time of year with the shortened days is even more of a challenge.

I think Ronnie made some good points about safety, too. The complexity of some stages with the additional equipment required can cause some folks' focus to stray (espescially when they encounter a problem during their run). However, I think as these multi-gum matches mature and more people get experience this will get better.

If your talking about the this issue, but not helping run matches, excuse me while I ignore your opinion.

MHearn

...Mark

Edited November 11, 2005 by ima45dv8

[Religious Shooter]

Overall multi-gun for me. As noted it allows for 1, 2 or 3 guns to be utilized on a stage. Traditional 3-gun only allows for 1 firearm per stage.

The only thing 3-gun has going for it is easier scoring and it allows the match to have a pistol, rifle and shotgun rankings. I think that for the most part that is a software and a training issue that can be solved.

The fundamental difference between the two (1 gun vs 1/2/ or 3 guns per stage) is inherent and can't be changed. A multi-gun match can be a 3 gun match. While a 3-gun match CAN'T be a multi-gun match. I like the flexibility and stage options that multi-gun gives. Multi-gun for me.

[JFD]

I prefer multi gun. Nothing wrong with 3-gun, but I like to see a mix of guns in a stage occasionally. 1 stage out of 3 or 4 is all I need.

[Wakal]

Multi-gun, for exactly the reasons everyone else thus far has said. Far more engaging

3-Gun is like a bowl tepid soup. Adequate, but nothing special. Multigun is a full buffet...

Alex

[kurtm]

First off Multi-Gun IS NOT in it,s infancy. Soldier of Fortune World Championship 3-Gun started in 1982. It was always multi-gun. Rocky Mountain 3-gun started in the late 80s as a club and it has ALWAYS been multi-gun. In 95 SMM3G started and it has ALWAYS been multigun. NO ONE has ever been hurt at these matches due to a safety problem! Not ever! People have been drawing pistol from amidst "all those sticks sticking up" as Ronnie points out for over 20 years! Ronnie please understand I'm NOT picking on you, I,m just triing to address the points you and othere have made.

The extra time it takes... is just an administrative problem that the USPSA guys just don't feel comfortable addressing because of thier background in the shooting sports. Once again I,m NOT picking on USPSA, but please understand that the USPSA's safety procedures are kind of hammered in stone, which isn't neccessarlily a bad thing.

First of all...pre-load, pre-load, pre-load!! It works for the rest of the matches and it would work for USPSA IF they would let it, as an aside it also works for Cowboy Action, NO ONE has been hurt doing this!!

Second of all, have the R.O. assitants pick up and clear grounded guns and place them on a safe table. These guns are grounded in a safe direction and in a safe manor so there is no reason not to have them cleared by an R.O. or assistant, once at the safe table the shooter, who is now out of the way of the stage can reverify that they are indeed empty and safe while the next shooter is rolling! Big time saver, but USPSA isn't flexable enough to do this. I DIDN'T say right or wrong it is meerly the structure of things.

I would like to remind people that Cowboy can run 140 people through 8 stages in one day and ALL thier stages are Multi-Gun. Now I know they don't tape, because they shoot almost all steel, but it is a good example of what can be accomplished, and don't forget that thier weopons requier a lot more steps to clear than our bottom feeder do!

BTW Ronnie was right they do have medicine for that, and I'm feeling much better KURTM

[tewlman]

i would rather shoot 1 good MULTI-GUN match in a year than shoot 5 3 gun matches. I like the challenge of multiple weapons on the same stage.

[RIIID]

Kurt,

The SMM3G was a 3-gun match in the first 2 years and in the 3rd multi-gun was used.

IF I could shoot long guns again, I would prefer 3-gun over multi-gun.

Rich

[GAPEACH]

OOOOOH it hurts to choose.... Don't make me do it!! Besides, Ronnie, now that you have that nifty 3-Gun cart, there should be no complaining about having to tote multiple equipment everywhere. I like both types of matches, especially the shotgun stuff (which didn't show last weekend).

Cindy

[Jim Norman]

Having just recently completed running our 5th Multi-gun match I have a couple comments.

Pre-Load if at all possible. You do need some additional staff, but not much.

Keep stages with 3 different guns to a minimum. 2 on a stage is a piece od cake by comparison.

We ran 66 shooters thorough 12 stages in 2 days. The match was built on Friday, 4 stages were "Rolled Over" for Sunday and two new stages were shot. We were torn down, put away and the garbage in the dumpster by 7 PM, (by the lights of the ATV's, but still done)

Scoring is the biggest challenge. At our club we don't like Time-Plus. It simply does not work unless all the stages are nearly equal. If everyone shoots a siongle long stage in say 170 seconds and one really good shooter lucks out and shoots it in say 100, he has a 70 second bonus against all the rest of the stages. I have seen it where the guy that wins the loing range rifle stage wins the match only because of that one stage. He was OK on the rest, but not in the top 10, then made it all up on one stage.

What we do is make all stage woth 100 points and use percentage of tage winner as score.

Biggest headach is Major pistol, minor rifle, major Shotgun. It requires some serious tracking to make sure everyone is treated right.

One other concern is that Major Rifle simply isn't worth it. The one point difference between an major and minor hit out of the A zone doesn't really make up for the difference and one shot vs two is another scoring nightmare, although you can use a no penalty miss to account for the shots not required.

Given the amount of work required, I can't see us running more than one of these a year, but as a shooter, I will skip just about any other match to shoot a Multi-gun. 3-Gun is ok, but just doesn't have the rush of transitioning from pistol to rifle to SG in a 100 second stage requiring navigating over, under and through various obstacles.

Jim

[Helmut]

Don't get me wrong.....i like shooting both, but Multigun is the top of the list. But is must be a challenge......The match must make you run through washouts/rocks or shoot from totally screwed up positions throughout the stage......or using anything available to you....IE pistol as a backup.......this, i think, will give everyone shooting a challenge instead of the uspsa standard of a static hosing or maybe moving a few feet.

As for pre-staging people....this is a very effective in keeping a match on schedule or ahead of schedule.........my brother and I, did this for our long range rifle stage at the 2005 RM3G......it worked very well.......by the time the RO returned from down the line...the next man was in the start position (of coarse rifle NOT loaded), but standing there ready so when the RO turned the corner we got the show on the road.......we where pumping squads in and out of our stage........I know the match director like us keeping on schedule and the shooters loved us for getting them out of there and not standing around getting cooked in the sun. At the 2004 RM3G....I did the same thing of preloading the shotguns on stage 8.....we where on schedule all day long and got the shoot throughs in with time to spare. It was very rare if a squad showed up and had to wait. But when there is a match with 200+ shooters.....pre-staging (loading for shotgun) is a must. A big key to this for a paper or set steel stages are the tapers or setting of steel (or pigeons)......the RO's MUST FORCE the shooters in the squads to follow the score keeper....I like to pick the 4 below the person in the hole......call names, and have them standing next to the score keeper......BEFORE THE BUZZER GOES OFF! ....if they do not.....let the shooter stand in the sun and cook until they do......I think this process has proven itself well......ok Guy and I are hard ass's, what can I say. But we love all of you!

Pain is your friend!!!! LOL

Edited November 11, 2005 by Helmut

[gunruner]

I myself enjoy shooting a match that has some Multi-Gun stages in it.

Many of you may know that we at Owensboro Rifle and Pistol Club just got done running the first ever KY State 3-Gun Championship. I resided to go with a 3-Gun format over a Multi-Gun. Some of the reasons for it was it was the clubs first major match ever to hold, a lot of the RO's and CRO's did not have that much 3-Gun knowledge before this match. We had nine stages three rifle, three shotgun, and three pistol. We ran 60 shooters through in one Saturday. Preloading was done on all the shogun stages. The match ran very well for the club first major 3-Gun match. Next year we will be holding the KY State 3-Gun Championship and will be having one or two Multi-Gun stages.

Wayne

Edited November 11, 2005 by gunruner

[MikeFoley]

Both are great fun. I don't have a preference really. I suppose that a well balanced mixture is important. I would rather a match flow well, and it is more of a challenge with multigun to get that with USPSA rules. Preloading saves a bunch of time, and is perfectly safe. Just let me shoot the 3 guns, together, seperate, it is all the same.

[latewatch]

I prefer Multi-Gun but a good 3 Gun is fine also.

[wgnoyes]

3-gun. But if it must be multi-gun, then by 2004 rules, where a multigun match was still scored as a tournament and you decided which gun scored the most points on a stage, and defined the stage under that gun's component match. Does it recognize disparate powerfactors? No, it doesn't, and so what?! You still got the best of both worlds: multigun stages and software support for scoring without a lot of external adding, subtracting, and other error-prone manual procedures.

But, this is 2005, not 2004, and we're doing the San Angelo thing now, and that's what people want , and that's what the GA 3-gun will be next weekend and we WILL make it work... and I gotta go whip up my specialized San Angelo scoresheets now.

[kurtm]

Thats the spirt Mr. Noyes!!! I just love to see the customer get what he wants, and watch the scoring people get behind it!! Maybe not because they want to, but because it is what the payers want!!

BTW I didn't get to meet you at area 6, but I did enjoy meeting your wife. Thank you both for putting in a lot of hours to score and administrate the match, it wouldn't have happened without you! KURTM

[Still Praying]

I will say I don't mind shooting Multi Gun to much and I will shoot it if there is nothing else to shoot. I'll shoot it before I would a pistol match. I just think there's to many issues with it. I'm sure most of you has read my last posting on Area 6-3 Gun, so I will try not to repeat myself.

I don't see how Multi Gun will ever be a fair match. Everyone has a defferent skill level with each gun. To make this fair we should classify with each gun. (3-Gun) I'm not saying that I like this idea, because it might keep me from winning any more matches, but fair is fair. I'm not sure how many if any more shooters would shoot 3 Gun if we did classify them. I do know there are some higher class shooters that dont shoot 3 Gun, because they are not as good with the rifle or shotgun and dont like the idea of a lesser class shooter beating them on a match. I don't see how we could ever classify Multi Gun accurately. Sooner or later we will have to classify 3/Multi Gun to keep it fair.

Don't take this wrong. Like I said I will shoot Multi Gun. I'm shooting Ga State and Ft Benning. Ft Benning is going tobe Multi Gun at it's finest. I would like to shoot 3 Gun too. This past weekend (Area 6 3 Gun) was a real nice change. Maybe we should change our loacal matches to every other 3 Gun is a Multi Gun and see if there is any defference in attendance.

Ronnie

BTW quit picking on me Kurt

Edited November 12, 2005 by Still Praying

[Garryowen]

I don't see how Multi Gun will ever be a fair match. Everyone has a defferent skill level with each gun.

wow...sounds alot like life...

[SinistralRifleman]

I don't see how Multi Gun will ever be a fair match. Everyone has a defferent skill level with each gun. To make this fair we should classify with each gun. (3-Gun) I'm not saying that I like this idea, because it might keep me from winning any more matches, but fair is fair. I'm not sure how many if any more shooters would shoot 3 Gun if we did classify them. I do know there are some higher class shooters that dont shoot 3 Gun, because they are not as good with the rifle or shotgun and dont like the idea of a lesser class shooter beating them on a match. I don't see how we could ever classify Multi Gun accurately. Sooner or later we will have to classify 3/Multi Gun to keep it fair.

To me keeping multi-gun fair means, having consistent rules and scoring for every shooter throughout the match.

What's the point of classes? To help boost people's egos?...if I win D class, that means 60% of the people shooting at that match are still better than me. If I suck, I suck...simple over all ranking in divisions is adaquate to tell me how well I am shooting.

If some higher class HANDGUN shooters, suck with Rifle and/or Shotgun...is the person that is beating them because they are a better Rifle/Shotgun shooter really a lesser shooter? If their egos can't handle that prospect, they aren't the kind of people I'd want to be shooting with anyway...they're the people that will try to get a stage thrown out simply because they did poorly on it.

I've never heard more whining and bitching from "higher class" shooters than when they have to shoot their 1/4MOA capable rifles with Über scopes past 100 yards. If all someone wants to do is shoot their rifle like a pistol, maybe they should stick to pistol matches only!