Two ROs, Scoring, & the Rules

[varminter22]

I see this rule being violated all too frequently.  Usually they say, "Well, its just a local/club match" - which is terrible logic.  

 

Two ROs, Scoring, & the Rules (nroi.org)

 

Two ROs, Scoring, & the Rules

April 22, 2021 by Kevin Imel

 

Now and then we get a query from folks who are confused about something they saw recently at a match, perhaps at a club they have never shot with before, and they are wondering if what they saw was right and proper. The most recent of these inquired regarding early scoring and the job of the “second RO”. Let’s dive in.

Let’s start of with just agreeing that a minimum of two ROs are required to run every shooter. There are instances where you may need three, or even four to do it properly. The first RO is the Timer RO. Appropriately enough, this is the RO with the timer in their hand, who issues the range commands to the competitor, and so on. We used to refer to this RO as the Chief Range Officer (CRO) but this lead to much confusion and some people, when designated as the CRO, felt they were required by the rules to run the timer for every shooter on that stage. Not so. We now most frequently refer to them as the Timer RO. The Timer RO is responsible for issuing the range commands, starting the shooter and so on. Their primary focus is on the competitor and the gun and they generally place themselves where they can safely observe the firearm and what the competitor is doing with it.

The second RO, often called the scorekeeper, assistant, or “off-side” RO also has specific duties and is required to properly run a shooter. This RO typically is positioned on the side of the shooter opposite the firearm (so, weak hand or “off” side) and watches the shooter with a wider view watching for foot faults, 180s breaks, finger in the trigger guard (generally this is the RO that has the best view of this), target engagement and so on. The score recording duties do not start UNTIL the range command “Range is Clear” has been given.

The Timer RO then calls the time and scores the targets using a call and response with the scorekeeper repeating each score as called to verify what is being recorded is what is called. Ranges are noisy places and with hearing protection on it is easy to miss a call so this methodology has been proven over time to avoid these types of mistakes. This is, in its simplest form, how we run competitors and score targets.

It must be noted that per 9.6.1 that the competitor, or their delegate, is permitted to follow along and verify scores. This does NOT mean that if something out of the ordinary is found while scoring that the world stops turning and we wait for the competitor to be found to come look at his target. If the competitor, or his delegate, is not present to view the score when called and challenge it, if necessary, at that time, then the score stands and we move on (9.6.3). If cleaning your magazines, yucking it up with your squadmates about your performance on the stage or reviewing the videos that were shot during your run are more important than verifying your score then be my guest; but there is no challenge available for you (9.6.4).

And then we get to 9.6.2, or what is often referred to as “early scoring” or “split scoring”. This is very often done with Multigun matches or long “jungle run” type courses. It comes down to saving time and the staff’s legs, so we can fit more competitors in a match day.

However, there are requirements if you plan to invoke early scoring on a stage. The first of these is that it must be announced in the stage briefing. That’s right folks; it is required to be announced ahead of time; you can’t just start doing it because you feel like it. This allows the competitors the opportunity to appoint a delegate to follow along and verify scores, if they wish to do so. Scoring then proceeds while the shooter is still shooting and overall some time is saved. But there are some potential problems with this. In general, the RM should be consulted about doing early scoring to be sure they are okay with it and to add it to the briefing.

The first problem is that while the shooter is active on a stage the entire stage is theirs to shoot. If, for whatever reason, they decided they need to come all the way back up range because they realize they forgot a target and you are already scoring and resetting behind them we, at best, have to stop them, clear them out and award them a reshoot because they have been interfered with. A few years ago there was an incident at a major match where they were scoring and resetting behind the shooter and he realized he had forgotten/missed a popper and came back for it only to find people standing at said popper doing the reset. There are better and safer ways to elevate your heart rate and blood pressure. In Multigun this is less of a problem because we typically only score the portion of the stage that has been shot with the firearm(s) that have been abandoned.

The second problem is this leads to a whole bunch of folks wandering down range during the course of fire. This increases the chance someone might catch some splatter off steel and can be a huge distraction for the competitor. There is also the potential for someone to end up where they should not be which is potentially dangerous.

And here is the biggest issue we see with clubs invoking 9.6.2: The Assistant RO abandons their post to score. Folks, we still need two ROs running the shooter. If you are going to use split scoring and have announced this ahead of time as required, then someone else gets the scoring device and performs scoring (with a delegate in tow if so desired by the competitor). The scoring RO must still call out the scores so the delegate can hear what the hits are being called and must deal with challenges appropriately.

At times, with some complex stages set up over a lot of territory, it can be expedient to have two or even three people scoring with the scoring device going down the center scoring those targets and people scoring on either side catching the targets in the wings. This is split scoring which can be very fast, often eliminating the problem of missing targets during scoring complex layouts, and can eliminate the perceived need to score behind the shooter due to time constraints. No rule says that the only person that can score targets is the person with the timer in their hand. This is tradition and it does save some confusion but variations on the theme are allowed and often a good plan. These variants are most often employed at major matches with static stage staff who have worked out what can be a somewhat complex ballet ahead of time and who also are more experienced. Most local matches are better off, generally speaking, sticking with the tried and true scoring after the shooter has finished and the Range is Clear command has been given.

[Sarge]

Not trying to be rude, but is there a point here? Around here with a few exceptions we run locals as good as or better than some Nationals. None of the above is new to me or my fellow local MD's and RO's. If you are seeing it ignored where you are shooting, then I suggest you get involved and work on fixing it.

[varminter22]

Just a point that it happens super frequently in some places.  And perhaps some people/clubs aren't as "aware" as they should be.  

 

Not really a problem at my local club (usually).  But I saw it all the time at some clubs in AZ.  I did mention it there, but since I live hundreds of miles from those clubs, I cannot get any more involved than I did.

 

 

[Nathanb]

I make it a point prior to every match that if something happens that isn’t by the book or doesn’t sit well with the shooter I want to know about it.  I’m fortunate to have a great group of serious shooters and if I can’t er I the bottom of it I know someone can. It’s even nicer when you have an rmi present 

[Silverscooby27]

You’re right, but the giant font is obnoxious.

[ima45dv8]

10 minutes ago, Silverscooby27 said:

You’re right, but the giant font is obnoxious.

Agreed.

I changed it to the default.

[varminter22]

13 minutes ago, Silverscooby27 said:

You’re right, but the giant font is obnoxious.

Sorry!  That is how it copied/pasted and I failed to try to fix it before posting.

[ima45dv8]

No worries.

 

[rowdyb]

I shoot  L1 matches all the time where no one on the squad is an official RO.

[Shootingaggie]

12 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

I shoot  L1 matches all the time where no one on the squad is an official RO.

That seems to be the norm

[ima45dv8]

I've been involved in a few local stages where the [secondary] RO with the clipboard/tablet is following along with the shooter and primary RO and scoring targets on the way down. Everyone understood that if a score on a target was anything detrimental, like a Mike or a No-Shoot hit, the person with the pasters would post on that target and make sure it wasn't touched. After "Range is Clear" was issued, that person would call out and let the shooter know there was something they should see before pasting. It's not like the shooter found out about a detrimental score after the target was restored. They had a chance to see the call, and challenge it if they wanted. This method kept the stage moving when there were no issues to review.

 

Some hi-end shooters will insist on seeing every target before pasting so they can confirm if what they called while shooting was what actually materialized on the targets, but they are few and far between. In those instances, we knew who they were and didn't paste anything until they had walked back uprange and looked at their targets. 

 

And yes, we all knew someone could designate a Second to review scoring for them, but at LI's that option isn't generally exercised. 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

I shoot  L1 matches all the time where no one on the squad is an official RO.

are you not ro certified? literally every serious shooter here is certified. im trying to think of an exception, but i can’t.

 

for anyone that doesn’t like the way your local matches are run, get off your ass and be the solution.

Edited May 30, 2021 by motosapiens

[varminter22]

2 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

I've been involved in a few local stages where the [secondary] RO with the clipboard/tablet is following along with the shooter and primary RO and scoring targets on the way down. Everyone understood that if a score on a target was anything detrimental, like a Mike or a No-Shoot hit, the person with the pasters would post on that target and make sure it wasn't touched. After "Range is Clear" was issued, that person would call out and let the shooter know there was something they should see before pasting. It's not like the shooter found out about a detrimental score after the target was restored. They had a chance to see the call, and challenge it if they wanted. This method kept the stage moving when there were no issues to review.

 

Some hi-end shooters will insist on seeing every target before pasting so they can confirm if what they called while shooting was what actually materialized on the targets, but they are few and far between. In those instances, we knew who they were and didn't paste anything until they had walked back uprange and looked at their targets. 

 

And yes, we all knew someone could designate a Second to review scoring for them, but at LI's that option isn't generally exercised. 

But you completely missed the greater point.  

 

The 2nd RO has other duties.  Safety; watching for 180 violations, etc, and watching for faults.  

 

[varminter22]

2 hours ago, Shootingaggie said:

That seems to be the norm

The key word being "official".  I don't think anyone cares if the RO (at an L1 match) is officially blessed as long as he/she is well versed in the duties.  

[rowdyb]

No,  I have never been an officiant in either idpa or uspsa in my 7 years of shooting. I usually read the rule book front to back once a year. That's it.

[waktasz]

On 5/30/2021 at 12:02 AM, varminter22 said:

The key word being "official".  I don't think anyone cares if the RO (at an L1 match) is officially blessed as long as he/she is well versed in the duties.  

There are so many ROs here and in PA where I used to live that there's never a reason to let someone non-certified run the timer. 

[Bakerjd]

I'd say 95% of the matches I've shot in A5 be it local, majors, what ever the ROs are a plenty. Shoot most the time we just pass the duty off to who ever is last to shoot or what ever works out for that stage and shooting order. And we rarely past before the shooter is done. We may score while that are still shooting but very very rarely do we past. I just always assumed it was normal practice really. Pasting early save you no time at all. And may cost you extra time for a reshoot. 

[Thomas H]

On 5/29/2021 at 9:34 PM, motosapiens said:

are you not ro certified? literally every serious shooter here is certified. im trying to think of an exception, but i can’t.

 

for anyone that doesn’t like the way your local matches are run, get off your ass and be the solution.

 

1)  I can think of several "serious" shooters that aren't certified ROs, and never pick up a timer or a tablet.  (Including a number of M and GM shooters.)  There's a lot of "if I'm running the timer/tablet, I won't do as well when I'm shooting" attitude.  Some people aren't really interested in helping out the sport, merely themselves.

 

2) Sometimes, the local match situation isn't something you can change.  If the MD and the match committee are all in lock-step about "the way it should be," volunteering isn't going to make much difference, and in some cases they won't even let a person help out.  I do agree that MOST of the time, change CAN be made by helping out, getting certified, making sure people use the rulebook, and so on. 

 

But telling people to "get off your ass and be the solution" isn't really useful if you don't know the situation.

[pjb45]

On 5/28/2021 at 6:12 PM, Sarge said:

Not trying to be rude, but is there a point here? Around here with a few exceptions we run locals as good as or better than some Nationals. None of the above is new to me or my fellow local MD's and RO's. If you are seeing it ignored where you are shooting, then I suggest you get involved and work on fixing it.

+1

[varminter22]

On 6/20/2021 at 3:21 PM, pjb45 said:

+1

Perhaps you didn't read on.  There IS a point, not the least of which is safety and rules.    

 

And it is ludicrous to think one can "get involved" at clubs hundreds of miles away.  Also, there are many shooters that for various reasons can't or won't become ROs.  

[pjb45]

I agree with Sarge’s assertion noted in the first sentences. 
It is certainly true around here.  
 

[motosapiens]

8 hours ago, varminter22 said:

 

And it is ludicrous to think one can "get involved" at clubs hundreds of miles away.  Also, there are many shooters that for various reasons can't or won't become ROs.  

 

it is ludicrous to think anyone was talking about clubs hundreds of miles away.  what sarge posted was  "If you are seeing it ignored where you are shooting, then I suggest you get involved and work on fixing it." and I posted something similar.

 

I'm sure there are reasons for shooters to not become RO's, but I don't care about those reasons, and I'm not going to listen to their complaints either. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

[varminter22]

29 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

it is ludicrous to think anyone was talking about clubs hundreds of miles away.  what sarge posted was  "If you are seeing it ignored where you are shooting, then I suggest you get involved and work on fixing it." and I posted something similar.

 

I'm sure there are reasons for shooters to not become RO's, but I don't care about those reasons, and I'm not going to listen to their complaints either. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Thats funny!  

 

Following your logic, our older shooters should just stay home and quit shooting.  Yeah, right!

 

Me personally?  I was a certified RO for many years.  But it expired during my lengthy cancer treatment and recovery.  Yeah, I guess I should apologize for being part of the problem.  

[pjb45]

I have cancer. I went through Chemo then years later immunotherapy.  I am a CRO.  I just shot with 7 people; 4 CROs and a couple of ROs.  I am the youngest. 
We have more matches than most states. So that might be important. 
 

The majority of our shooters are experienced in RO-ing regardless if certified by USPSA. 
 

Apparently we don’t follow your logic. 

[varminter22]

8 hours ago, pjb45 said:

I have cancer. I went through Chemo then years later immunotherapy.  I am a CRO.  I just shot with 7 people; 4 CROs and a couple of ROs.  I am the youngest. 
We have more matches than most states. So that might be important. 
 

The majority of our shooters are experienced in RO-ing regardless if certified by USPSA. 
 

Apparently we don’t follow your logic. 

Same here.  The majority of our shooters are experienced at ROing even if not certified.